Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring???

[charity stripe]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

houheffna wrote:

Salmons didn't play the 2 Guard position because Kevin Martin was in Sacramento with him. Plus that is not the point. The point is he is a better option defensively and offensively you don't lose much. And Delonte West is not trying to post up Salmons. Gordon's lob passes are not what I am talking about. I am sure they were great passes. All two of 'em. I am talking about allowing the offense to flow and find the open man on the floor. And letting Rose initiate the offense, that is all.

Gordon did not throw 2 lob passes. He through far, far more than that to teammates on fast breaks.

You say Delonte West posting up Gordon killed the Bulls, but West scored only 11 points in that game, which was his season average. And the Bulls won that game, so I'm not sure how those 2-3 baskets on post ups in the first quarter killed the Bulls. He didn't even post up Gordon effectively in the other 3 meetings between the two teams. Salmons would have a defensive advantage over Gordon on some matchups, but not all matchups. West for example, would beat Salmons off the dribble pretty easily as he has a great quickness advantage over the slow footed Salmons. I don't see how the defensive advantage in some matchups means that Salmons is a better starting SG.

 

[Rerisen]

Ah yes, the amazing Delonte West. I've never seen one game highlighted so much for so pathetically little. The guy hit his first 3 out of 5 shots (ooh boy) and then Kirk came in for Ben and West hit 2 more jumpers, and then didn't do jack the rest of the game. He had 11 points that game and averages 12 on the year. We also won that game.

But I guess 6 points is true domination that turned the tide of a game unlike say T.J. Ford, Cutino Mobley, or Travis Diener annihilating Kirk Hinrich for entire halves at a time.

 

[dougthonus]

Rerisen wrote:

Ah yes, the amazing Delonte West. I've never seen one game highlighted so much for so pathetically little. The guy hit his first 3 out of 5 shots (ooh boy) and then Kirk came in for Ben and West hit 2 more jumpers, and then didn't do jack the rest of the game. He had 11 points that game and averages 12 on the year. We also won that game.

But I guess 6 points is true domination that turned the tide of a game unlike say T.J. Ford, Cutino Mobley, or Travis Diener annihilating Kirk Hinrich for entire halves at a time.

Delonte West left teh game with an injury, that's why he didn't do jack the rest of the game.

 

[dougthonus]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

That is not fiction, teams that can do it, will, I remember him hurting the Bulls in the playoffs against the Pistons. He could not guard Billups or Hamilton, Billups posted him up, Hamilton ran him through screens, he could not handle either sufficiently. I have seen no change in his defense since then.

Well apparently almost no teams can do it, because it happened on average less than once per game and it's effectiveness was below average vs other means of scoring.

My point is that he cannot start, he can come off the bench. If you are going to have an undersized backcourt, one of those two at least has to deliver defensively. I look at Dumars/Thomas and even Kenny Smith/Vernon Maxwell (he was 6'4"), they could D up pretty good. Let's not try to make BG into something he is not. If we played Cleveland right now, Delonte would be right back on the block killing our backcourt.

If the Cavs stop going to LeBron to try Delonte in the post against Gordon over and over, the Bulls are in for a much easier night.

 

[dougthonus]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

I am sorry but you should check your history, you don't always start who is the best, you start who you fill works with that lineup. I pointed out Kevin McHale already, so I don't quite understand your logic.

Just so you know the best three years of McHale's career in efficiency as well as total scoring were when he started. So it would appear that bringing him off the bench was dumb.

However, getting past that, how frequent is this situation where a clearly better player is coming off the bench? You went back to the 80s to come up with the example McHale. There are a couple other examples for sure, but the number of times the best guy starts outweighs the number of times he comes off the bench by probably 100 to 1.

 

[Rerisen]

dougthonus wrote:

Delonte West left teh game with an injury, that's why he didn't do jack the rest of the game.

Point taken. :laugh: I didn't remember that at all, that is how 'not' memorable of a game he was having. He may very well have dominated the rest of that game then, we don't know. As I noted he continued to hit shots over Kirk Hinrich when Ben went to the bench. So I don't think it was anything particular about the matchup that made him get off to a hot start. Ben also blocked one of his early attempts.

To look for more info that might shed insight, we do know what he did in the rest of his full games vs the Bulls this year.

He put up 11 pts a game in the other 3 meetings (averages 12) on 48%FG. So he shot pretty good but was essentially close to his usual performances considering the small sample size.

To me 2 possessions in one game where a guy scored on 2 close jumpers slash semi-post ups, is not indicative of a chronic weakness with Gordon's defense.

 

[J-Mart]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

If anyone watched the Bulls consistently this season, they would see it was horrifically rare for Gordon to get posted up. Stats prove that. Stats lie sometimes, but in this case they don't. Also Using an example from two years ago (Pistons) does not prove anything since Gordon is a better defender now than he was then. You also like to bring up West and well if Gordon is getting beat by being posted up once a year, I am more than ok with that. Strength has a lot to do with posting up, thats a fact. Especially when it comes to defending against it.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

houheffna wrote:

Posting is not just about strength, again, watch some Adrian Dantley film, watch Olajuwon. If I am not mistaken, in the game that West got hurt in against the Bulls, on TNT I believe, West posted up and went crazy. They did nothing. Gordon improved leaps and bounds but Salmons is still a better defender.

Posting on offense is not always about strength, I will admit that, but defending in the post has a lot to do with strength. Why else do you think Noah and Tyrus get beat up in the post every game and then Brad Miller comes in and the result is better post defense? Also, if Ben Gordon was so easy to destroy in the post, why doesn't every team make that their game plan? The games where I see Ben Gordon defending in the post are few and far between, I think that says something. I see Kirk defending in the post more than I see Ben Gordon and I think that speaks about Gordon's 10lb muscle advantage over Kirk. Not to knock Kirk or anything, he does a pretty good job in post defense for a 6'3" guy.

 

[houheffna]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

Just so you know the best three years of McHale's career in efficiency as well as total scoring were when he started. So it would appear that bringing him off the bench was dumb.

That was not dumb, they won a championship.

Okay, what about Manu Ginobili, 6th man of the year if I am not mistaken. A better guard than Gordon in his sleep, plays both sides of the court and an assassin at the end of games. What about J.R. Smith, do you know who started in front of him at 2 guard this season? Jason Terry? Who starts ahead of him, he is the best guard on the Mavs. And what do these three have in common?

THEY ALL D UP BETTER THAN GORDON!!!

 

[Rose1]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=per&pos=sg&seasonType=2

Take your pick from the MOST productive 2 guards in the league. This stat explains why Gordon should be here and Hinrich should be moved as the expandable piece to improve other areas.

 

[houheffna]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

I like Hinrich's game when he is not standing at the top of the key dribbling the ball like we are in the 50's and there's no time clock.

I think that when you can put a 6'3" guard on Paul Pierce, that is a pretty good little player. VDN understood the importance of Hinrich, he can play both sides. There are not stats that can show those intangibles. Now based on that, if you want to make a Thomas/Dumars backcourt possibility happen, Hinrich/Thomas would probably be your best bet, because Hinrich is a much better defensive player.

That said, if you can get what this team needs up front, trade him. My point is everyone is expendable except Rose. No need to hang on to big contracts when we are light years away from where the Cavs are.

 

[Hendu0520]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

What is the Karma thing and why is Heffna's at -17? just because he has a different opinion? Are the users doing that? What is the point and how does it work? If I go and hit the green thumb can I put Heffna's karma at +30 all by myself?

 

[Hendu0520]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

I think this has been one of the more entertaining threads, you guys are spitting a lot of good points out. The best threads are the ones where people strongly disagree, it is more fun imo. I don't get the karma thing. I disagree with a lot of what Heffna said but I'm glad he said it should be good karma. Both sides are being respectful.

 

[Hendu0520]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

My question is how do we get rid of Hinrich without taking 9 million in salary back? Is it even possible?

 

[houheffna]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

Hendu, I think the argument would be to get a young frontcourt player. The only team I have heard is interested is Portland. What exactly they would want from them I am not sure. Aldridge is not realistic at all and I don't know of any other players in their frontcourt that fits our needs. There might have to be a 3-way deal, that may be where the draft picks come into play.

Hinrich and Gordon cannot stay, mainly because I believe the front office still want to upgrade at the 2 eventually. They have been looking for the prototype 2 guard for a few years now. So one of those guys would have to go. They need size in the backcourt.

To answer your question, yes the users are doing it. Its cool, they even bought up fighting me in another thread. I am pretty sure that's a joke though. At least it better be.

I am from the JayZ school of entertainment, make sure they are talking about you, good or bad, when they no longer talk, you are no longer relevant.

Again, I respect everyone's opinion, I hope they respect mine.

 

[Hendu0520]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

Well I agree our number one priority right now should be figuring out a way to get a young frontcourt player who is already good though. There are only a few people on my list and that's not even thinking if they are available. No way is Aldridge on my list and I don't know why people have been hyping him so much. Sure he is better than Tyrus right now, but he is older and played 3yrs of college. This year if you ask me wasn't much of an improvement and might have been a step back for him. Bosh is really the guy I want. I think that we should figure out a way to keep Gordon for at least 1 more year if we can't trade for Bosh. We can't keep Gordon if it is going to mess up any future plans for getting frontcourt help to pair with Rose. We would take a step back without him though if we don't add anyone else. But if we could do it I would just rather see Hinrich go before Gordon I just don't think it is possible.

 

[Hendu0520]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

Lol, yah I just noticed I have a -2, I'm not ever touching that thing what a wierd thing that is. You gotta have disagreements its no fun getting on here and agreeing with each other, preachin to the choir.

 

[Shakes]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

Hendu0520 wrote:

My question is how do we get rid of Hinrich without taking 9 million in salary back? Is it even possible?

We'd have to trade him to a team under the cap, or with an appropriately sized trade exception (although I don't think any team currently has one).

There aren't going to be many teams under the cap this year, so trading Hinrich without taking back salary is pretty unlikely.

 

[houheffna]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

Don't worry about it, wear it as a badge of honor. That is what I am doing. When everyone agrees with me, something is wrong.


Just asking....can anyone find me a published list that would have BG in the top 10 NBA shooting guards? I have looked and I cannot find one.

 

[Hendu0520]

Re:Assuming Gordon is gone, Rose with more scoring

Shakes wrote:

Hendu0520 wrote:

My question is how do we get rid of Hinrich without taking 9 million in salary back? Is it even possible?

We'd have to trade him to a team under the cap, or with an appropriately sized trade exception (although I don't think any team currently has one).

There aren't going to be many teams under the cap this year, so trading Hinrich without taking back salary is pretty unlikely.

Ok that's what I thought but I wasn't sure if you could even do that, yah I don't see anyone doing that for Hinrich even if they did have space unless they are close to competing for the chip. Not with 2010 coming up.