Atheists’ answer to summer camps...

BigPete

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I went to YMCA camps too, but never thought of them as any kind of religious experience. We did crafts and went different places and got to swim every day. Of course I was like 7 at the time. And you certainly don't have to be an Atheist to be a free thinker. I was never raised to believed that being Catholic was the only acceptable religion. I was raised the opposite. I was taught that we were Catholic and that was right for us, but that didn't mean it was right for everyone. My parents could not afford to send me to Catholic school, but my mom has always said that even if they could have they wouldn't have cause she wanted me to be exposed to all different kinds of people and learn about them. I don't know how many times I have heard over the years "Being Different does not mean being Wrong."

This is not a dig at you....but that is very un-christain when you think about it. I can't tell you how quickly I mute the douchebag evangelist that has TV commercials with him sitting alone and he says something very sucinct like, "Jesus is the way, the light, and the truth. Let Jesus into your heart today." That shit drives me nuts. But it is very indicative of what christianity and especially the catholic church has always been about. We have the answer because Jesus had the answers and he told them to us.



Good for you for being open minded though.
 

supraman

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At first it was easier to explain that there were many gods that controlled individual things like Karma, the wind, fire, the skies, love, etc. Then it got out of hand with religions like Hinduism where there are litterally thousands of gods. So the peoples around modern Isreal started to create a monotheistic solution. There weren't the only ones though, just probably the most documented to date.



I think you are working under the assumption that all religions are false (or at least that's how interpret it)



Working under the hypothesis that at least one religion is "correct" to me it makes the most sense that first religion is the correct one. Because the concept of religion is a bit out there (I really cant find the word to summarize how I really feel) I mean what would cause someone to think there are superior beings controlling things when there is no evidence of any deities existing.



I think to make it up out of thin air is possible but seems to be a stretch so following that logic the idea had to be implanted into civilization by something and if so that something had to be a deity and why would that deity teach them a "wrong" religion before teaching them the right one.
 

TSD

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1. If a god or gods did exist they would have taught the first human being the "true" ways.



2. I mean where did the concept of religion come from in the first place?



3. Also why did polytheism arise before monotheism?



pt. 1 Why? Thats an assumption. Why would they only teach the first humans the true ways and not the rest of them?



Furthermore, I am sure "The First Ever" religion is pretty much lost to history, So whatever that "true" way was its been lost for a long time.



pt 2. The Concept of religion came from people not understanding their surroundings. Its hard to imagine now with a modern mind, but try coming into the world with no libraries no internet and no one to explain your surroundings. By our very nature, we want to know the why of things. Kids are always why, why, why, why. Humans generally arent satisfied with the answer, "Thats just the way it is."



For lack of understanding, in a primitive state, you will simply invent a reason. I think we are putting too much complexity into what the "first" religion may have been. I would venture to guess it was something very simple and evolved in complexity over time. You've probably done this yourself. Not with religion maybe, but maybe you hear a loud noise, you investigate, you dont see any direct evidence that gives you an explanation for it, Your brain will give you one, it was the wind, it was a ghost, it was this it was that. You arent leaving that situation without if only subconsciously coming to a conclusion on a reason for the noise.



pt 3. how the hell do you know for sure Mono-theism came after Poly-theism? I am sure there are countless dead religions we have no concept never existed, who are we to say no mono-theistic religion predated the religions we know about. We really only have written history for a blink of time in terms of human existence, its not possible to assert with absolute certainty, poly-theism predates Mono-theism. To my knowledge Judaism existed for the entirety of recorded history, so even in recorded history that assertion is debateable.
 

Ymono37

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I did not start the thread to provoke a big religion debate. If it happens then I can't stop that. I just thought it was a good point that like the originator felt even boy scout camp has heavy religious over tones. Why can't there be more summer camps promoting spirituality and intellectual growth without christian theology pushing it?

I went to Scout camp twice when I was younger and never once felt they were pushing any kind of religion on me... but I could think that has a lot to do with the Troop you belong to. While our Troop met weekly in a local church, there wasn't much "churchin'" at all. In fact, I imagine Scout Camp was a lot like regular camp, except that there were less girls and you achieved merit badges at the end of the week although never having gone to regular camp, I can't say that with any kind of authority.



I have to agree with Variable on this one though - I think it's a great idea, my opinion is that they should just be a little excited to throw that "atheist" word around. I would think a place that fosters creativity and critical thinking should welcome all kids, regardless of credo.



With that said, lets all give thanks to his noodily appendage.
 

BigPete

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To my knowledge Judaism existed for the entirety of recorded history, so even in recorded history that assertion is debateable.

I have a really big book you can borrow. The History of the Jews. The foundations of Judaism date to only about 2,000 B.C.E. (before the common era - or before christ if you prefer).



About your points on monotheism verse polytheism; we can only go off of recorded history. So, recorded history shows that sometime around 2,000 B.C.E. people of that region specifically, wanted to find a simpler approach to their 'theism'.



But I agree, and that is generally my point about who can really claim to KNOW the answer. There truly could have been an Atlantis. Who knows what they believed in. We will never know. Much of the desert where a lot of these ideas and stories come from swallowed up ancient cities or texts and idols and monuments were simply destroyed by conquerers who wanted to assimilate those people.
 

supraman

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pt. 1 Why? Thats an assumption. Why would they only teach the first humans the true ways and not the rest of them?



Furthermore, I am sure "The First Ever" religion is pretty much lost to history, So whatever that "true" way was its been lost for a long time.



pt 2. The Concept of religion came from people not understanding their surroundings. Its hard to imagine now with a modern mind, but try coming into the world with no libraries no internet and no one to explain your surroundings. By our very nature, we want to know the why of things. Kids are always why, why, why, why. Humans generally arent satisfied with the answer, "Thats just the way it is."



For lack of understanding, in a primitive state, you will simply invent a reason. I think we are putting too much complexity into what the "first" religion may have been. I would venture to guess it was something very simple and evolved in complexity over time. You've probably done this yourself. Not with religion maybe, but maybe you hear a loud noise, you investigate, you dont see any direct evidence that gives you an explanation for it, Your brain will give you one, it was the wind, it was a ghost, it was this it was that. You arent leaving that situation without if only subconsciously coming to a conclusion on a reason for the noise.



pt 3. how the hell do you know for sure Mono-theism came after Poly-theism? I am sure there are countless dead religions we have no concept never existed, who are we to say no mono-theistic religion predated the religions we know about. We really only have written history for a blink of time in terms of human existence, its not possible to assert with absolute certainty, poly-theism predates Mono-theism. To my knowledge Judaism existed for the entirety of recorded history, so even in recorded history that assertion is debateable.



pt 1 - It is plausible that these deities instructed the first people to promote the religion as true and help spread the word (a theme common in religions)



pt 2 - religion is a very abstract concept given there is zero evidence of any deity so how could humans come up with this idea on their own



pt 3 - Civ 3 taught me so. Actually I was basing it on the assumption that Civ 3 did order it correctly (please dont laugh at me...much)
 

supraman

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I have a really big book you can borrow. The History of the Jews. The foundations of Judaism date to only about 2,000 B.C.E. (before the common era - or before christ if you prefer).



About your points on monotheism verse polytheism; we can only go off of recorded history. So, recorded history shows that sometime around 2,000 B.C.E. people of that region specifically, wanted to find a simpler approach to their 'theism'.



But I agree, and that is generally my point about who can really claim to KNOW the answer. There truly could have been an Atlantis. Who knows what they believed in. We will never know. Much of the desert where a lot of these ideas and stories come from swallowed up ancient cities or texts and idols and monuments were simply destroyed by conquerers who wanted to assimilate those people.



It is BC and AD **** that PC bullshit.



But Ancient Egypt dates back to 3150 BC. It was polytheistic and pre-dates Judaism. Sumerians pre-date Egypt they date back to 5300 BC
 

bri

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This is not a dig at you....but that is very un-christain when you think about it. I can't tell you how quickly I mute the douchebag evangelist that has TV commercials with him sitting alone and he says something very sucinct like, "Jesus is the way, the light, and the truth. Let Jesus into your heart today." That shit drives me nuts. But it is very indicative of what christianity and especially the catholic church has always been about. We have the answer because Jesus had the answers and he told them to us.



Good for you for being open minded though.





I didn't say it was a dig at me. I was simply stating I don't recall religion even being a factor when I was at anything Y related. I could care less whether someone believes in God or the Tooth Fairy. I only care about how they treat me and others around them. I think being a good Christian means loving and accepting people for who they are and to try to be a good person. Being religious does not automatically make someone "Good" nor does being an Atheist make someone "Bad." I don't promote religion to others and I don't like it when they try to recruit me. I am an intelligent human being who can make my own decisions on what I feel is the right path for me and I try to give others the same respect. That said,I do have somewhat of a problem with Scientology, but people are free to believe what they want. I also am not so sure that Atheists are free thinkers either. if they are not evem able to entertain the thought that their is even a tiny possibility that a God exists.
 

sth

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I didn't say it was a dig at me. I was simply stating I don't recall religion even being a factor when I was at anything Y related. I could care less whether someone believes in God or the Tooth Fairy. I only care about how they treat me and others around them. I think being a good Christian means loving and accepting people for who they are and to try to be a good person. Being religious does not automatically make someone "Good" nor does being an Atheist make someone "Bad." I don't promote religion to others and I don't like it when they try to recruit me. I am an intelligent human being who can make my own decisions on what I feel is the right path for me and I try to give others the same respect. That said,I do have somewhat of a problem with Scientology, but people are free to believe what they want. I also am not so sure that Atheists are free thinkers either. if they are not evem able to entertain the thought that their is even a tiny possibility that a God exists.

That's my thing too. Atheists also have a belief that they are unyielding about. Which makes them sometimes as bad as super religious people. Anyone who believes something with no doubt can cause problems. I like to see things from everyone else's shoes.
 

BlackHawkPaul

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Ladies and gents-- it's a great conversation.

It's slightly being derailed.

Start a religion thread. The conversation about it in this thread is great.

Unfortunately, I cannot resurrect the 17+ page thread from about a year ago. It had some really good banter.
 

BigPete

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I don't think it is being derailed. We are talking about the idea of 'free thinkers' verse those that have been 'indoctrinated' to believe something, which is what the camp is all about.
 

BlackHawkPaul

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I don't think it is being derailed. We are talking about the idea of 'free thinkers' verse those that have been 'indoctrinated' to believe something, which is what the camp is all about.



Fair enough.

I'll go back behind the curtain.
 

supraman

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Fair enough.

I'll go back behind the curtain.



Jeez you guys are nice to him when he says it, when I do I get angry PMs
cry.gif
 

BigPete

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It is BC and AD **** that PC bullshit.

Oh? What if I don't believe in Jesus, should I be forced to use it? It is not a matter of political correctness, it is a matter of intellectual correctness, imho.



http://www.religioustolerance.org/ce_info.htm



History of the AD/BC notation:
The AD/BC notation was first proposed by the monk Dionysius Exiguus (Dennis the Little) in the year 525 CE. He used it to identify the years in the Easter tables that he prepared. He did not use the notation to date historical events. "Dionysius implied, but never stated, that Jesus was born 25 December 1 BC." 1 The basis on which he linked the divide between BC and AD to the birth of Jesus is unknown. There is general agreement that he guessed incorrectly. Most theologians and religious historians believe that Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus) was born during a Fall -- or less likely during a Spring, sometime between 7 and 4 BCE. However, we have seen estimates as as early as the second century BCE and as late as 4 CE.
 

BigPete

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Jeez you guys are nice to him when he says it, when I do I get angry PMs
cry.gif

**** off. Feel better now!?! lol - just kidding, thanks for participating in this thread.
 

supraman

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Oh? What if I don't believe in Jesus, should I be forced to use it? It is not a matter of political correctness, it is a matter of intellectual correctness, imho.



http://www.religious...org/ce_info.htm



History of the AD/BC notation:



**** that anyway. BC/AD fo life yo



Also Pluto is a fucking planet. And the earth is flat.





**** off. Feel better now!?! lol - just kidding, thanks for participating in this thread.





...no...no not really. No one loves me *cries some more*
 

LordKOTL

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Honestly? I don't think critical thinking is taught by the school or parents and not just today's parents but the previous generations as well. Personally I think critical thinking is the most important thing to teach someone. You teach them critical thinking I feel the rest will fall into place.



But that's just me and /end soapboxing



I think the reason why it's not taught is that any authority source if fallible, and anuthority sources hate when someone under them questions them. Be it parents, teachers, school administration, government officials, religious officials, whatever; if you use your critical thinking skills, and find any one of them wrong and tell them as such, they have a habit of becoming very pissed off at you.



Let's face it, the miniute you teach your kids critical thinking is the minute they second guess, question your authority, and talk back to you. Most parents can't handle that. The same goes for any other authroity figure.



No religion is better than the other but if I had to give an edge to one of them, I'd say the older the more plausible

I think every religion regardless of age has about the same odds of being plausible. Older ones were based off a lack of worldly and universal knowledge. Newer ones have had fewer chances to have the holes in the religious theory plugged, corrected, or obfuscated.



If a god or gods did exist they would have taught the first human being the "true" ways.



I mean where did the concept of religion come from in the first place?



Also why did polytheism arise before monotheism?



My theory is that religion is this: Early on, when humans or their forebearers were self-conscious and aware of the world around them, knowledge of how and why things happened the way they did was incredibly limited, so they used what they though is the logical explanation given the knowledge of the time. These faith beliefs were liklely explained as a supernatural force, and human nature tends to "personalize" things to give them a sentient quality (how many times have you felt that an mechanical, electrical, or electronic appliance of any type seems to be consipring against you?).



As humans are social creatures, chances are the leaders of the early "tribes", as a consolidation of power, told the tribespeople that the beliefs they had for how and why things happen the way they do is the only correct explaination, and per human nature, people quietly acceptred and believed it lest they be shunned. Hence, as the beliefs consolidated, they became religions.



For Poly vs Monotheism, I think originally, humans saw such things as the systems of the moon, the cycle of the sun, the cycle of the seasons, lightning, fire, and just about any unexplainable concept as completely unrelatef, and thus the explainations and personifications evolved into separate gods. As human "culture" developed and leaders consolidated their power, the natural evolution of though was likley that if there's one supreme human ruler, there must be a supreme god controlling everything.



The problem is, as is with most concepts of leadership, you'll eventucaly get someone in the position of leadership that is completely ill-suited for the job, and has an inferiority complex and can't have their power questioned. So, as religions took hold, a discovery that contradicts an estabilished religious belive probably was seen as questioning the authority or wisdom of said leader, and the questioner was likley struck down with impunity.



TSD said pretty much the same in less words, but with less of a cause-effect relationship linking everything. Again, my assertation are only theory and conjecture.



Now, as for the camp. I don't see a problem with it per se, because there's always one ******* who, in any conceptual gather, will inject their religion/belief system into it and be completely inflexible about it. Further, a lot of people can't dissoaciate their religion from other concepts in their life. Until humaity changes human nature and gets a real understanding of acceptance and tolerance (which, the so-called liberals and conservatives in spite of their assertion have no clue what that truly is), you'll have segregated camps like this.
 

supraman

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But consider this, religion is a very abstract idea. There is no base point for it to grow from. It was an idea out of thin air. It is certainly possible humans could have came up with it on their own but how is chieftain Ug going to convince Og his crazy fucking idea is true. Add in an actual deity and it becomes a lot more plausible
 

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