Atheists’ answer to summer camps...

[BlackHawkPaul]

But consider this, religion is a very abstract idea. There is no base point for it to grow from. It was an idea out of thin air. It is certainly possible humans could have came up with it on their own but how is chieftain Ug going to convince Og his crazy fucking idea is true. Add in an actual deity and it becomes a lot more plausible

Did you watch the video I posted?

Although tongue and cheek, it's plausible.

 

[LordKOTL]

But consider this, religion is a very abstract idea. There is no base point for it to grow from. It was an idea out of thin air. It is certainly possible humans could have came up with it on their own but how is chieftain Ug going to convince Og his crazy fucking idea is true. Add in an actual deity and it becomes a lot more plausible

Not necessarily. It's easy to make guesses about how something works the way it does without any factual knowledge. It wouldnt be too far of a stretch for Ug to put 2 and 2 together to feel that if he blows on his hand, the air moves, and if he can make the air move, and wind is a lot of air moving, then something BIG is making the air move. Personify it, and you get a wind god. From there, the leap to convincing Og would likley be as simple as "When you blow on your hand you feel small wind. Most wind is big, therefore, big man blowing from far away creates wind." Og, having not thought the matter through and was more focused on hunting his next meal, would likley agree and thing Ug is a genius, after all, he is the Cheif.

 

[Variable]

Did you watch the video I posted?

Although tongue and cheek, it's plausible.

It's not just plausible, it's what organized religion is. Systems of control.

 

[BlackHawkPaul]

It's not just plausible, it's what organized religion is. Systems of control.

No argument there.

 

[supraman]

Not necessarily. It's easy to make guesses about how something works the way it does without any factual knowledge. It wouldnt be too far of a stretch for Ug to put 2 and 2 together to feel that if he blows on his hand, the air moves, and if he can make the air move, and wind is a lot of air moving, then something BIG is making the air move. Personify it, and you get a wind god. From there, the leap to convincing Og would likley be as simple as "When you blow on your hand you feel small wind. Most wind is big, therefore, big man blowing from far away creates wind." Og, having not thought the matter through and was more focused on hunting his next meal, would likley agree and thing Ug is a genius, after all, he is the Cheif.

Good point, I didn't think of that.



And no didnt see the vid, youtube blocked at work

 

[TSD]

pt 1 - It is plausible that these deities instructed the first people to promote the religion as true and help spread the word (a theme common in religions)



pt 2 - religion is a very abstract concept given there is zero evidence of any deity so how could humans come up with this idea on their own



pt 3 - Civ 3 taught me so. Actually I was basing it on the assumption that Civ 3 did order it correctly (please dont laugh at me...much)

Kids invent Imaginary friends, or creatures in the closet at young ages before they are ever exposed to these concepts. There are plenty of things in this world that were invented and are widely believed now not to exist. Vampires, werewolves, fairys, leprachauns, elves, centaurs, minotaurs, etc. You can apply your same question to those. We generally as a people accept these beings to be imaginary. Yet at times in our history, they were believed to be real. How did people come up with the ideas for those things? who the **** knows, most likely by not being able to explain something they saw, a phenomenon they experienced. Again, we are looking at this from an entirely different mindset than a person who doesnt know why it rains, who has no idea what the sun and stars are, has no idea what the world is, and I think its next to impossible to do so, we are still imagining ourselves in that position with what we know now, trying to answer those same questions. The Human brain is very hesitant to take "I dont know" for an answer, its part of the reason we are such a successful species. Think of how many untruths have been smashed over time with discovery? How many religions have faded into being generally accepted mythology.



I think in essence, it is impossible for a modern person to comprehend experiencing and explaining the world around them on a "clean slate" so to speak. So to your question, "How can someone come up with the idea of a God with no evidence". You dont see the sun moon and stars as evidence of a God because you know what they are. What isnt evidence to us today, may be evidence to someone 20 thousand years ago. Even many modern believers use the same premise to justify their belief. I cant count the conversations ive had with my aunt (a hardcore born again) where she uses the argument "How can you look at all the beauty in this world and not think some intelligence had to create it?" for me its simple, theres no evidence. For her that observation is evidence.

 

[BigPete]

I am not adding this link to add to the discussion. I just think some people interested in this thread might enjoy reading the transcript of this debate about "Does God Exist?". It was held in 1996 at North Carolina State University between Dr. Douglas M. Jesseph (Associate Professor in the North Carolina State University, Department of Philosophy and Religion) and Dr. William Lane Craig (a lecturer/speaker and author currently serving on the staff of Campus Crusade for Christ).





http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/doug_jesseph/jesseph-craig/



Dr. Jesseph's statements in the Jesseph-Craig Debate are copyright © 1996 by Doug Jesseph. All rights reserved.

 

[MassHavoc]

What happen to camp that was all about kickball, summer girlfriends, and making shitty leather wallets and other slave labor arts and crafts. I'd rather send my kid to a place that doesn't try to stand for anything. Like an 80's movie.

 

[BigPete]

What happen to camp that was all about kickball, summer girlfriends, and making shitty leather wallets and other slave labor arts and crafts. I'd rather send my kid to a place that doesn't try to stand for anything. Like an 80's movie.

What was the TV movie in the 80s set at Camp Pinewood? It had a whole bunch of stars from that era on it like Michael J Fox and Adam Baldwin. Poison Ivy, I believe.

That was a great camp movie! I don't think it had any religiousity in it.

 

[MassHavoc]

What was the TV movie in the 80s set at Camp Pinewood? It had a whole bunch of stars from that era on it like Michael J Fox and Adam Baldwin. Poison Ivy, I believe.

That was a great camp movie! I don't think it had any religiousity in it.

I can't remember, I just remember that both camps I went too (hell they could have been religious based who knows) didn't try to push anything but being active outside, interaction with others (yes learning diversity as well) and teaching skills and shit. No tv, no pray circles, no think tanks, nothing but bug bites, sleep bags and bon fires.

 

[the canadian dream]

When does basic life experience come into play when developing an ability for "free thinking". I am not too sure if teaching free thinking is 100% possible. I don't think anyone can develop a full capacity for "free thinking" either. I honestly am not even sure what the definition of "free thinking" is anymore. We live in a culture of mass media, commercialization of nearly everything including thought. I don't think "free thought" actually can exist anymore..if it ever did in the first place. I guess that is a philosophy debate.



Another question. Is the term "free thought" mistakenly being used here for the term "critical thinking"? Because the two have complete different meanings don't they? I don't think this camp is actually teaching "free thinking" but is trying to teach "critical thinking". We should all have a good ability to think critically and I do believe that we all do. Even those who are heavily influenced by religious ideas and practices. Religion itself is a spawn of critical thinking in my opinion. Whether it is correct or incorrect thinking? Well who am I too judge?



Is "free thought" just another term for "basic instinct"?



I am trying to think of what Ernest would have thought when he went to camp. Hey Vern?

 

[Variable]

When does basic life experience come into play when developing an ability for "free thinking". I am not too sure if teaching free thinking is 100% possible. I don't think anyone can develop a full capacity for "free thinking" either. I honestly am not even sure what the definition of "free thinking" is anymore. We live in a culture of mass media, commercialization of nearly everything including thought. I don't think "free thought" actually can exist anymore..if it ever did in the first place. I guess that is a philosophy debate.



Is "free thought" actually another term for "basic instinct"?

Ehhh, how to explain this. You could write a book on the explanation and on how to approach the answer (and there has been many written). It's simple, but it's tough. And it's not really the purpose of the "freethinking" camp in this topic, or at least it doesn't look like it is. To truly be "free" or to have "freedom of thought" you have to recognize and learn how to deal with and/or overcome the only true enemy that we have, and that is our own Ego. Everything else are just perceived enemies of your Ego. Everybody, everywhere, struggles with this at one time or another to some degree. Most don't ever escape it or rather even realize it's impact or it's existence. They think it's just them.



We are very much influenced by the "reptilian brain" or the reptilian complex (R-complex) and it especially affects us when it comes to our behavior, and in effect our thoughts and our emotions.Very primitive and limited, the oldest iteration of our brain. Fight or flight. Especially when it comes to fear and aggression and our reactions to them, which is why the use of fear has always proven to be such a useful tool for the various systems of control throughout our history and continues to be to this day.



About 5 or 6 years ago, Guy Ritchie made a movie kinda disguised as sort of an action or thriller on the outset, but really it was just a huge metaphor of battling one's ego. Most people didn't know what the **** to make of it, they didn't know what they were watching. It was almost completely panned. I don't really blame them for that, it's tough to grasp, especially if you're going into it expecting it to be nothing more than a stylish action flick to kill an hour or two. But there's this one scene I've always liked that might do a better job of visually showing you what I'm talking about rather than just going on for another 2 or 3 paragraphs.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUeYQw5OW8A&feature=related[/media]



Like I said, simple but tough, because it seems as though you're fighting with yourself.

 

[the canadian dream]

Interesting!!! I like that theory. It actually does make sense to me Variable (I am shocked myself).



I think I will look further into those theories. Very nice.

 

[JOVE23]

I just came in here to tell you guys that you're all going to hell.



Bye!

 

[supraman]

I just came in here to tell you guys that you're all going to hell.



Bye!

Thats fine I live in florida, it will be nice to have an eternity away from the heat