back to the drawing board

[FirstTimer]

as stated by utahbullsfan, Michael also played D, but do you have the assist average for Michael during those years please?

Different offensive systems are different. Derp derp derp

 

[Utahbullsfan]

That's not the argument.

You are comparing a one dimensional player to the GOAT ....

The argument is which player is better for this team Lu or Melo

To me Lus offense+defense is better for this team than Melos offense+non defense...

Could you imagine how bad it would be for Thibs starting Melo and Booz..

But if there was a fantasy draft and all the teams started over I would def pick Melo over Deng

 

[FirstTimer]

Allen Iverson.

6.2 APG for his career. Almost an entire assist more than Jordan.

Not a ball hog!

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

as stated by utahbullsfan, Michael also played D, but do you have the assure average for Michael during those years please?

The averages for Michael was from nbareference.com. As I stated, bringing Michael's defense into this is changing the argument. Your words, again, were this:

and ball hogs aren't team players.

Michael Jordan was clearly a ball hog, the numbers - which you used to show Carmelo being a ball hog - clearly show that. So by using your defintion, Michael Jordan wasn't a team player.

As for bringing this up again, here is why I did it. In the only two games this year, Derrick Rose has had to yell at Joakim Noah for not being in the right place on offense. In the only two games this year, Joakim Noah hasn't played more than 30 minutes.

Joakim Noah stands to make $60 million over the next 5 years. Sure, he is an above average defender, but he is an offensive liability. He can't be trusted to play late in the game when the Bulls need offense, nevermind the fact that he can't remember the plays. This has been going back to the Atlanta series last year.

To say that the Bulls are better off with Noah, as opposed to having Carmelo despite his defensive troubles, is basketball Special person.

 

[FirstTimer]

Iverson. Averaged 1 more assist per game than Pippen.

Pippen=ball hog.

 

[inactiveuser1]

Different offensive systems are different. Derp derp derp

Well my argument is that melo isn't a team player because he doesn't pass much and shoots a Lot. So if Michael shoots a lot and passes a good amount then I don't consider him a ball hog. And Melo has played in Denver and NY but both places his assist have always been around the same so I don't think it's the system

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

FirstTimer, Hue, Rory, and myself should run a basketball re-education camp for this board.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Well my argument is that melo isn't a team player because he doesn't pass much and shoots a Lot. So if Michael shoots a lot and passes a good amount then I don't consider him a ball hog. And Melo has played in Denver and NY but both places his assist have always been around the same so I don't think it's the system

Who was the coach of both Denver and now New York since Carmelo has been there?

 

[inactiveuser1]

The averages for Michael was from nbareference.com. As I stated, bringing Michael's defense into this is changing the argument. Your words, again, were this:



Michael Jordan was clearly a ball hog, the numbers - which you used to show Carmelo being a ball hog - clearly show that. So by using your defintion, Michael Jordan wasn't a team player.

As for bringing this up again, here is why I did it. In the only two games this year, Derrick Rose has had to yell at Joakim Noah for not being in the right place on offense. In the only two games this year, Joakim Noah hasn't played more than 30 minutes.

Joakim Noah stands to make $60 million over the next 5 years. Sure, he is an above average defender, but he is an offensive liability. He can't be trusted to play late in the game when the Bulls need offense, nevermind the fact that he can't remember the plays. This has been going back to the Atlanta series last year.

To say that the Bulls are better off with Noah, as opposed to having Carmelo despite his defensive troubles, is basketball Special person.

Thank you for clarifying that


If Mike has the same assist stat line as Melo then I will take back that statement but I'd still rather have Deng and Noah, but that's just me

 

[FirstTimer]

The averages for Michael was from nbareference.com. As I stated, bringing Michael's defense into this is changing the argument. Your words, again, were this:



Michael Jordan was clearly a ball hog, the numbers - which you used to show Carmelo being a ball hog - clearly show that. So by using your defintion, Michael Jordan wasn't a team player.

As for bringing this up again, here is why I did it. In the only two games this year, Derrick Rose has had to yell at Joakim Noah for not being in the right place on offense. In the only two games this year, Joakim Noah hasn't played more than 30 minutes.

Joakim Noah stands to make $60 million over the next 5 years. Sure, he is an above average defender, but he is an offensive liability. He can't be trusted to play late in the game when the Bulls need offense, nevermind the fact that he can't remember the plays. This has been going back to the Atlanta series last year.

To say that the Bulls are better off with Noah, as opposed to having Carmelo despite his defensive troubles, is basketball Special person.

This.

Plus with guys like Rip and Brewer and an improving Rose(on defense) Melo doesn't have to be a lock down perimeter defender. Deng isn't anyways. Even if Melo turns it on when facing guys like Kobe, Lebron, etc that's when it's needed the most anyways. melo has shown the ability to step his game up and with Thibs you're wanting team defense anyways. Get Melo to buy into that, rather than becoming the next Scottie Pippen and it'd be an improvement.

 

[inactiveuser1]

Who was the coach of both Denver and now New York since Carmelo has been there?

George Karl and now he has Mike D Antonio, do they run the same system? Because I thought they didnt but I'm not sure

 

[FirstTimer]

And Melo has played in Denver and NY but both places his assist have always been around the same so I don't think it's the system

Not the point.

Melo has never been asked to handle the ball and distribute teh way Pippen, and Jordan were in the triple post offense. It's an entirely different system. You can't judge Melo playing with true point guards against Jordan and Pippen having the offense run through them in the Triangle with marginal PG's who were basically out there to be spot up shooters off of post action through Pippen and Jordan.

Melo has had the offense run to get him shots almost exclusively through out his career...not to have the offense run through him in order for him to get other players shots and shoot.

Hell, even in Kobe's ball hogging days he was still putting up pretty damn good assist numbers becuse the Lakers were running the triangle through him with no real PG.

 

[inactiveuser1]

This.

Plus with guys like Rip and Brewer and an improving Rose(on defense) Melo doesn't have to be a lock down perimeter defender. Deng isn't anyways. Even if Melo turns it on when facing guys like Kobe, Lebron, etc that's when it's needed the most anyways. melo has shown the ability to step his game up and with Thibs you're wanting team defense anyways. Get Melo to buy into that, rather than becoming the next Scottie Pippen and it'd be an improvement.

Alright alright you've convinced me that I'm wrong I'll take back my statement about ball hogs not being team players and I'll admit that you and prope have won this debate/argument/ discussion whatever you'd like to call it. But I would still rather have Deng and Noah because I just don't like Melo :dunno: but you guys have good reasoning with your side

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

George Karl and now he has Mike D Antonio, do they run the same system? Because I thought they didnt but I'm not sure

No, they don't run the same system. They both, however, run offenses that are predicated on the point guard facilitating the action to shooters. Do the names Gary Payton, Steve Nash, and Chauncey Billups mean anything to you?

It's my guess, that Carmelo doesn't have high assist totals, because he isn't asked to have a high assist total in the offenses that he has played in.

I didn't think this would be a difficult concept.

 

[inactiveuser1]

Just when I thought I finally had a good enough reasoning behind an argument to win

 

[marky mark]

No, they don't run the same system. They both, however, run offenses that are predicated on the point guard facilitating the action to shooters. Do the names Gary Payton, Steve Nash, and Chauncey Billups mean anything to you?

It's my guess, that Carmelo doesn't have high assist totals, because he isn't asked to have a high assist total in the offenses that he has played in.

I didn't think this would be a difficult concept.

No say we did get Melo, not being sarcastic btw, would this system make sense with Rose as the PG who can score nearly at will? or would they facilitate almost a double isolation style offense that lets the defense choose if they wanna man up on Melo or Rose?

 

[FirstTimer]

No say we did get Melo, not being sarcastic btw, would this system make sense with Rose as the PG who can score nearly at will? or would they facilitate almost a double isolation style offense that lets the defense choose if they wanna man up on Melo or Rose?

Melo in a motion based offense or flex makes a hell of a lot of sense. Especially with Rip in the fold. Thibs wouldn't have to change his system a bit. Basically they would want Melo to play Paul Pierce's role. The system would work bettrr than what we saw in Boston because you'd actually have to honor Rose's ability to shoot...unlike Rondo...which leaves more room for Melo to find space and create off the dribble off of Rose's action..which isn't Deng's strength.

 

[marky mark]

that would be scary to watch

 

[FirstTimer]

that would be scary to watch

Exactly.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

No say we did get Melo, not being sarcastic btw, would this system make sense with Rose as the PG who can score nearly at will? or would they facilitate almost a double isolation style offense that lets the defense choose if they wanna man up on Melo or Rose?

If you're looking for an intricate basketball answer, I don't have it for you because I wouldn't know what they are running until they do. I'll cede to either Hue or FT for that kind of answer.

I can say that just based on having a guy like Carmelo on the team you'd have a guy that could handle the ball (babies cry when Luol Deng dribbles), play with his back to the basket, and help Rose not fly through the air and make my heart stop.

This team is too dependent on Rose to score. Maybe as the season progresses you get more out of Hamilton, but so far, to me at least, they are too concerned about running their offense from :24-:10, and then panicking with shots as the clock winds down.