Bulls.com Joakim Noah Injury Update

[clonetrooper264]

so literally the only knock on his offensive game that you just listed was his shooting %, just like I said. everything else about his game was as good or better than his MVP season outside of his shooting %. not sure what else needs to be said here. and its not just by looking at his per 36, its literally any and every way you could want to try and break it down.....but sure lets ignore the numbers

Shooting percentage is kind of a big deal in his case though. As we all know, Jo has never been an offensive force. But what he was able to give us on those occasional lefty drives and put backs and dunks was at least mildly efficient at near 50%. And his free throws were always solid at 75%. So you at least had some degree of confidence that Jo would put the ball in the basket around the rim or if he got fouled. Sure he would miss a few here and there but usually you didn't expect him to fail. Compare that to his now sub 40% shooting percentage and his below 60% FT%. You basically expect him to miss everything. It's like you lost what little scoring he was giving you to begin with. Blown layups, missed FTs, what have you. That's why you saw his ppg drop from 10-11 to like 4. And where defense had to somewhat respect his ability to occasionally drive or finish a pick and roll every so often, now they would just ignore him completely. It makes a difference.

 

[Enasic]

Jo's done here which is really the biggest point in all of this. He was the one guy the front office wanted to trade (according to reports) and he's just absolutely terrible on offense. He has zero lift, and if you really watch him, he's not the same defender as he once was. Still a good defender, but no longer great. He's still a very good rebounder though. Either way, its been fun watching him over the years but it's a safe bet to say he played his last game as a Bull.

 

[knoxville7]

Shooting percentage is kind of a big deal in his case though. As we all know, Jo has never been an offensive force. But what he was able to give us on those occasional lefty drives and put backs and dunks was at least mildly efficient at near 50%. And his free throws were always solid at 75%. So you at least had some degree of confidence that Jo would put the ball in the basket around the rim or if he got fouled. Sure he would miss a few here and there but usually you didn't expect him to fail. Compare that to his now sub 40% shooting percentage and his below 60% FT%. You basically expect him to miss everything. It's like you lost what little scoring he was giving you to begin with. Blown layups, missed FTs, what have you. That's why you saw his ppg drop from 10-11 to like 4. And where defense had to somewhat respect his ability to occasionally drive or finish a pick and roll every so often, now they would just ignore him completely. It makes a difference.

the shooting % isn't as big of a deal as you are making it out to be IMO. noah was averaging 4.6 shot attempts per game. if he hits 50% he is making 2.3 shots per game. in reality he was only shooting 38% or 1.8 shots per game. so you are talking about a difference of a HALF a made shot per game made or literally 1 point difference. I don't see it as big of an issue as most everyone else on here. scoring and shooting isn't what got Jo to the NBA or kept him in it. that said, im sure his last game as a bull has occurred....I just think thatll be a mistake for the bulls

 

[clonetrooper264]

the shooting % isn't as big of a deal as you are making it out to be IMO. noah was averaging 4.6 shot attempts per game. if he hits 50% he is making 2.3 shots per game. in reality he was only shooting 38% or 1.8 shots per game. so you are talking about a difference of a HALF a made shot per game made or literally 1 point difference. I don't see it as big of an issue as most everyone else on here. scoring and shooting isn't what got Jo to the NBA or kept him in it. that said, im sure his last game as a bull has occurred....I just think thatll be a mistake for the bulls

I mean I agree somewhat and disagree somewhat. Absolutely scoring and such is not what keeps Noah in the NBA. As I've said, it's not who he is. But there's little things that do matter in regards to his scoring, but it's more about how people guard him than how much he scores. Teams play way off him now even around the rim because he's even less of a threat to do anything besides pass the ball. It affects spacing and now every team is expecting Noah to pass to a backdoor cutter. It also hurts not being able to score on some of those offensive rebounds he would get. But sure, in the big scheme of things Noah doesn't shoot enough for that 12% to matter THAT much, even at his career rate of 7+ shots per game.

 

[knoxville7]

I mean I agree somewhat and disagree somewhat. Absolutely scoring and such is not what keeps Noah in the NBA. As I've said, it's not who he is. But there's little things that do matter in regards to his scoring, but it's more about how people guard him than how much he scores. Teams play way off him now even around the rim because he's even less of a threat to do anything besides pass the ball. It affects spacing and now every team is expecting Noah to pass to a backdoor cutter. It also hurts not being able to score on some of those offensive rebounds he would get. But sure, in the big scheme of things Noah doesn't shoot enough for that 12% to matter THAT much, even at his career rate of 7+ shots per game.

teams have always played off of Noah the majority of his entire NBA career. so while I can see that being a downside, its been that way for a long time and nobody seemed to complain much about it until the last year and a half

 

[clonetrooper264]

teams have always played off of Noah the majority of his entire NBA career. so while I can see that being a downside, its been that way for a long time and nobody seemed to complain much about it until the last year and a half

Well definitely it's not like he commanded a dude in his face, but they've moved even farther off him in the last couple seasons. You can argue that's a product of him also stepping farther out near the 3pt line as well as scouting reports saying to prevent that backdoor pass. There's also a confidence factor. While Noah has never been an offensive player, you would see him at least go to the FT line with confidence. That's been completely absent for 2 seasons. He's had an Iggy-esque drop in FT% in the past 2 years. We also see it in his reluctance to even shoot while he's around the rim. He's passed up layups and other shots around the rim because he didn't have confidence that he would finish the play...likely because he failed to do so several times.

But again, Noah's not an offensive player anyway so perhaps it's all irrelevant.

 

[knoxville7]

Well definitely it's not like he commanded a dude in his face, but they've moved even farther off him in the last couple seasons. You can argue that's a product of him also stepping farther out near the 3pt line as well as scouting reports saying to prevent that backdoor pass. There's also a confidence factor. While Noah has never been an offensive player, you would see him at least go to the FT line with confidence. That's been completely absent for 2 seasons. He's had an Iggy-esque drop in FT% in the past 2 years. We also see it in his reluctance to even shoot while he's around the rim. He's passed up layups and other shots around the rim because he didn't have confidence that he would finish the play...likely because he failed to do so several times.

But again, Noah's not an offensive player anyway so perhaps it's all irrelevant.

that's kind of how I feel about it. nothing you said was wrong, but I just don't worry about the 2 or 3 free throws he takes a game. was it nice when he was hitting 75%?absolutely. and teams definitely have always played off of him, that's why he was able to get his long as hell shot release off from 17/18 feet away(when he was hitting them)...there was nobody within 7 feet of him. its just now(like his first few years in the league) he isn't hitting those shots anymore to make guys pay for that sag defense. we got spoiled for 2 or 3 years with him and felt like it was the norm

 

[clonetrooper264]

that's kind of how I feel about it. nothing you said was wrong, but I just don't worry about the 2 or 3 free throws he takes a game. was it nice when he was hitting 75%?absolutely. and teams definitely have always played off of him, that's why he was able to get his long as hell shot release off from 17/18 feet away(when he was hitting them)...there was nobody within 7 feet of him. its just now(like his first few years in the league) he isn't hitting those shots anymore to make guys pay for that sag defense. we got spoiled for 2 or 3 years with him and felt like it was the norm

Well I'd say it felt like the norm because it was the norm. He shot over 70% from the line for years. That's definitely long enough for it to be the norm imo. And while he was not money from 17 ft, we could expect him to make one shot from there while no one was on him. But even without that shot, he did have a couple of go to moves with his left hand that while ugly as heck usually went in and he had those almost since his rookie year. Those disappeared too. Perhaps it all doesn't matter at all, but to me all those little things add up and could matter in some games.

 

[knoxville7]

Well I'd say it felt like the norm because it was the norm. He shot over 70% from the line for years. That's definitely long enough for it to be the norm imo. And while he was not money from 17 ft, we could expect him to make one shot from there while no one was on him. But even without that shot, he did have a couple of go to moves with his left hand that while ugly as heck usually went in and he had those almost since his rookie year. Those disappeared too. Perhaps it all doesn't matter at all, but to me all those little things add up and could matter in some games.

oh they certainly matter no doubt about that. but do they matter enough to where you don't want him on your team at a reasonable cost? I mean what youre describing was a joakim noah that was one of the more complete players in the entire league for that 2 - 3 year time period. is he that still? no, of course not. but does he still add positive value to a roster? absolutely IMO. 95%+ of players in the NBA have flaws, Jo is no different. its just when the flaw is scoring the basketball, everyone freaks out because that is the easiest aspect of the game to appreciate so it stands out more to people

 

[clonetrooper264]

oh they certainly matter no doubt about that. but do they matter enough to where you don't want him on your team at a reasonable cost? I mean what youre describing was a joakim noah that was one of the more complete players in the entire league for that 2 - 3 year time period. is he that still? no, of course not. but does he still add positive value to a roster? absolutely IMO. 95%+ of players in the NBA have flaws, Jo is no different. its just when the flaw is scoring the basketball, everyone freaks out because that is the easiest aspect of the game to appreciate so it stands out more to people

Yeah I'm not saying he should definitely be let go, but price is a big factor in keeping him. Not just because of the offensive drop off, but we also must remember he is on the wrong side of 30 and any sort of athleticism he has will also decline. A lot of his defense and rebounding is due to his athleticism allowing him to hustle as much as he does. He does have a few more solid years left in him though so if the price is right I'd bring him back.

 

[knoxville7]

Yeah I'm not saying he should definitely be let go, but price is a big factor in keeping him. Not just because of the offensive drop off, but we also must remember he is on the wrong side of 30 and any sort of athleticism he has will also decline. A lot of his defense and rebounding is due to his athleticism allowing him to hustle as much as he does. He does have a few more solid years left in him though so if the price is right I'd bring him back.

im with ya. and yes his age is on the wrong side of 30. but his rebounding rate this year was the highest of his entire career, so it doesn't seem to be hampering that aspect of his game at all. plus, theres been a lot of elite rebounders late in their careers

 

[clonetrooper264]

im with ya. and yes his age is on the wrong side of 30. but his rebounding rate this year was the highest of his entire career, so it doesn't seem to be hampering that aspect of his game at all. plus, theres been a lot of elite rebounders late in their careers

I don't think rebounding will be a big deal for him. But the things that made him DPOY will definitely drop off. We won't see Noah be able to handle switches onto an opposing PG. Still, he has good instincts so he'll be useful anyway defensively.