Cashner vs. Rizzo

SilenceS

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This isn't a thread to get peoples panties riled up. My question is knowing what we know now with our minors. Would you still do the Rizzo for Cashner trade? Cashner is having a good year and has controlled his walk rate and has stayed healthy. Rizzo has not had a very good season. They are both still pretty young with Cashner a couple of years older. Also, knowing the Cubs have Bryant, who would be a plus defender at first, according to scouts and Volgelbach in the system. The Cubs have very little arms that could be a top of the rotation type of guy. Would you do the trade again?
 

waldo7239117

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Yes, I would do the trade again. Cashner is having a good season, but can get injured at any time. Vogelback is a 1B, but he's just not a good defender anywhere. Bryant can play 1B most likely, but he'll be the future LF.
 

SilenceS

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Yes, I would do the trade again. Cashner is having a good season, but can get injured at any time. Vogelback is a 1B, but he's just not a good defender anywhere. Bryant can play 1B most likely, but he'll be the future LF.

I could see Rizzo moving off first and going to left if Volgelbach continues to hit. His defense is not as bad as people made it out to be. He has made strides. He will never be a gold glover but he could be average, but his stick is what is going to get him to the majors. Guy isn't just power. He is a complete hitter. Maybe the most complete hitter in the whole Cubs system. I really don't want to trade him.
 

waldo7239117

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I could see Rizzo moving off first and going to left if Volgelbach continues to hit. His defense is not as bad as people made it out to be. He has made strides. He will never be a gold glover but he could be average, but his stick is what is going to get him to the majors. Guy isn't just power. He is a complete hitter. Maybe the most complete hitter in the whole Cubs system. I really don't want to trade him.

Yeah, but LF is Bryant's position and Rizzo is a great defender at 1B for that to happen. I mean you trade Vogelbach for that missing piece, like a top line SP.
 

SilenceS

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Yeah, but LF is Bryant's position and Rizzo is a great defender at 1B for that to happen. I mean you trade Vogelbach for that missing piece, like a top line SP.

I truly believe Volgy will be a much better hitter in the long run then Rizzo. And, why is Bryant going to left. He has the arm for Right. A better one then Soler. I would put Soler in left and Bryant in right. Soler arm turned out to be less then advertised. I mean there is a lot that can happen. Bryant will be up before Soler.
 

Jntg4

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How about we just add multiple DH's to the NL, use more SP's, and have:
---------------------
1. CF Almora
2. SS Castro
3. 1B Rizzo
4. 3B Baez
5. RF Bryant
6. DH Vogelbach
7. LF Soler
8. DH Lake
9. 2B Alcantara
10. C Castillo
---------------------
SP Edwards
SP Johnson
SP Samardzija
SP Wood
SP Blackburn
SP Hendricks
----------------------------
CL Vizcaino
-----------------------------

:yeah:
 

SilenceS

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How about we just add multiple DH's to the NL, use more SP's, and have:
---------------------
1. CF Almora
2. SS Castro
3. 1B Rizzo
4. 3B Baez
5. RF Bryant
6. DH Vogelbach
7. LF Soler
8. DH Lake
9. 2B Alcantara
10. C Castillo
---------------------
SP Edwards
SP Johnson
SP Samardzija
SP Wood
SP Blackburn
SP Hendricks
----------------------------
CL Vizcaino
-----------------------------

:yeah:

LEts take it a step further. How about we get Tony Campana back and have him pinch run for every player on our team! Championship!
 

Jntg4

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LEts take it a step further. How about we get Tony Campana back and have him pinch run for every player on our team! Championship!

Logan Watkins for Hamilton and Campana?
 

waldo7239117

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I truly believe Volgy will be a much better hitter in the long run then Rizzo. And, why is Bryant going to left. He has the arm for Right. A better one then Soler. I would put Soler in left and Bryant in right. Soler arm turned out to be less then advertised. I mean there is a lot that can happen. Bryant will be up before Soler.

RF is a harder position to play, especially at Wrigley and Soler will easily be the better defender.
 

SilenceS

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RF is a harder position to play, especially at Wrigley and Soler will easily be the better defender.

Im not so sure about that. Bryant is athletic just not the quickest instincts for third. Its why they think he wont stick there. Almost all scouts think he is a right fielder because he has good speed and a strong arm. I could not Soler is the better defender. Like I said his arm is not near as good as people thought it was.
 

beckdawg

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I really don't agree that Rizzo's season is as bad as some has suggested. But let's start with Cashner. He's 27 which is generally considered to be the start of your prime. He has a 3.40 ERA and 3.77 xFIP. He pitches in a pitchers park where his ERA is 2.14. On the road his ERA is 4.41. His 6.45 K/9 is 66th out of 83 pitchers with qualified innings His BB/9 of 2.66 is 39th out of 83 pitchers. In my opinion, he appears to be a back of the rotation starter at best. Travis Wood and Cashner have roughly equivalent numbers.

As for Rizzo, I've already detailed my thoughts on him in numerous topics. But simply stated, he's 24. He's well before most players prime years. His metrics suggest he's been unlucky to some extent. His OBP suggests that if he figures the issues out that are causing him to pop up more pitches that he will be better than his numbers the previous year. But even then, his major stats aren't that bad. And there's significant reason to believe at age 24 that by age 27 he will be better. Cashner getting substantially better at 27 is far less likely.

Now, it's worth noting, that 1B is a position where your better hitters reside. And if Rizzo doesn't develop into an elite hitter, he might hold the team back. But, we're not at that point yet and even if we do get to that point, Rizzo has already proven he is as good as solid major league players like Adam LaRoche. It's also worth noting that pitching hasn't been the cubs problem. In the future, they are missing a top of the rotation starter in their farm system but I think it's a huge stretch to suggest Cashner is going to be that type of player. This is by far the best year he's had and we're talking about a 4-5 starter numbers.

So, my answer is I'm glad they made the trade and I'm willing to bet Rizzo far out weighs Cashner's WAR and that's before considering things like Cashner's injury history and the fact he's much closer to being a FA than Rizzo.
 

dabears253313

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I would rather have Rizzo. I think he is just having an off year, same with Castro.

No one knows how Vogelbach will do and the Cubs already have Rizzo locked up for a good amount of time.

Last season people wanted Rizzo as the franchise first baseman and now he's a bum. Make up your mind (not intended for SilenceS)
 

SilenceS

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I really don't agree that Rizzo's season is as bad as some has suggested. But let's start with Cashner. He's 27 which is generally considered to be the start of your prime. He has a 3.40 ERA and 3.77 xFIP. He pitches in a pitchers park where his ERA is 2.14. On the road his ERA is 4.41. His 6.45 K/9 is 66th out of 83 pitchers with qualified innings His BB/9 of 2.66 is 39th out of 83 pitchers. In my opinion, he appears to be a back of the rotation starter at best. Travis Wood and Cashner have roughly equivalent numbers.

As for Rizzo, I've already detailed my thoughts on him in numerous topics. But simply stated, he's 24. He's well before most players prime years. His metrics suggest he's been unlucky to some extent. His OBP suggests that if he figures the issues out that are causing him to pop up more pitches that he will be better than his numbers the previous year. But even then, his major stats aren't that bad. And there's significant reason to believe at age 24 that by age 27 he will be better. Cashner getting substantially better at 27 is far less likely.

Now, it's worth noting, that 1B is a position where your better hitters reside. And if Rizzo doesn't develop into an elite hitter, he might hold the team back. But, we're not at that point yet and even if we do get to that point, Rizzo has already proven he is as good as solid major league players like Adam LaRoche. It's also worth noting that pitching hasn't been the cubs problem. In the future, they are missing a top of the rotation starter in their farm system but I think it's a huge stretch to suggest Cashner is going to be that type of player. This is by far the best year he's had and we're talking about a 4-5 starter numbers.

So, my answer is I'm glad they made the trade and I'm willing to bet Rizzo far out weighs Cashner's WAR and that's before considering things like Cashner's injury history and the fact he's much closer to being a FA than Rizzo.

Rizzo problems go further than saber metrics. He is major league player but his problems are real. He makes a lot of weak contact which will make his babip lower than most. He rolls over and pops up a lot. It isn't he is making hard contact and getting unlucky. His OBP makes him a major leaguer but his ops leaves a lot to be desired. Yes, he is young and can fix but he has a lot to fix. Cashner problem is injuries. If he stays healthy he is a top of the rotation starter. That's an of but his splits are nothing abnormal with pitchers. He has hit 103 on the gun and can average between 97 to 99 as a starter. He is healthy then is front line. He isn't a one trick pony. Pitching is the cubs problem. There is no front of the line besides shark. They ever makes the playoffs power pitching is big. I'm not saying they made the wrong move. I am saying with the farm now. I think cashner would look nicer then rizzo on our team. Also cashner does not have a lot of mileage on his arm so 27 is not a prime for a pitcher. They are different then hitters. If he controls his walks. He is a stud. I get both sides but sabers do not apply here
 

Flacco4Prez

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I would definitely make the trade again. Cashner is a 4/5 guy at best on a playoff team. We already have enough 4/5 guys on this team.
 

SilenceS

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I would definitely make the trade again. Cashner is a 4/5 guy at best on a playoff team. We already have enough 4/5 guys on this team.

That's not a true statement. That's a personal opinion. There is no 4 or 5 that throws 97 plus on the reg with a plus breaking ball.
 

waldo7239117

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Maybe he's not, maybe he is... throwing fast does not mean anything.
 

beckdawg

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Cashner problem is injuries. If he stays healthy he is a top of the rotation starter. That's an of but his splits are nothing abnormal with pitchers. He has hit 103 on the gun and can average between 97 to 99 as a starter. He is healthy then is front line. He isn't a one trick pony.

Based on what? I don't need metrics to prove my point. He's 27 and has never put up anything even close to resembling a top of the rotation season. As for his splits, maybe they are maybe they aren't. My point is in his best year he's pitching in a great pitchers park and he's clearly been much better there. Also, just because you can throw the ball fast doesn't make you a top of the rotation starter. At the time of the trade, many scouts weren't even sure he'd remain in the rotation instead being a relief pitcher largely because of his injury issues.

Pitching is the cubs problem.

It's far to early to say any of the guys in the minors will not be front line starters. I'll give you that there is no "can't miss" guy but you also have to remember they have a top 5 pick in this coming draft which likely will be a pitcher. And there is absolutely nothing Cashner has shown that indicates he will be more than what he is now. Whether he has a lot of mileage on his arm is irrelevant. The point I was making is most pitchers by the age of 27 have matured and developed their pitches and that's when they go on to have their best years. Additionally, he's supposed to be a power pitcher and his K% isn't stellar. And all that's before you even mention injuries. There's nothing in his stats to suggest that he will get substantially better than what he is now.

As for Rizzo, how does he have anymore to fix than any other 23/24 year old? Seriously, compare Rizzo to current top power hitters in their 22-24 years like Chris Davis, Edwin Encarnacion, Pedro Alvarez, Alfonso Soriano, Paul Goldschmidt, Adam Jones, Adam Dunn, Jay Bruce, Adrian Beltre, Jose Bautista, David Ortiz, and Domonic Brown. I've left out Cabrera, Evan Longoria because they were clearly on another level. I've also left off Mark Trumbo because he wasn't up at Rizzo's age. Those are your top 15 power hitters in terms of HRs and almost all of them struggled until they were 25 which is a full year and a half ahead of where Rizzo is.

As I've said else where, I don't get the concern about Rizzo. Almost every young hitter will struggle before they are 25. On the contrary, Cashner is 27 and has had one season where he's thrown more than 100 innings. That in of itself is a concern. And the one year he has done it hasn't been particularly stellar. He's been ok but as I said, what exactly has he done this year to show he's a top of the rotation guy?
 

beckdawg

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That's not a true statement. That's a personal opinion. There is no 4 or 5 that throws 97 plus on the reg with a plus breaking ball.

Cashner's closer to 95 on average. As for having a plus breaking ball, I can't say as I don't know all of those pitchers that well but there's numerous guys in the top 30 in velocity that would be 4-5 starters. Wily Peralta for example is a 4 on the brewers. Homer Bailey is a 4 on CIN. Norris is a 4 on the O's. Also for what it's worth, Cashner is a 4/5 starter in SD when everyone's healthy.
 

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