Cashner vs. Rizzo

[SilenceS]

Cashner's closer to 95 on average. As for having a plus breaking ball, I can't say as I don't know all of those pitchers that well but there's numerous guys in the top 30 in velocity that would be 4-5 starters. Wily Peralta for example is a 4 on the brewers. Homer Bailey is a 4 on CIN. Norris is a 4 on the O's. Also for what it's worth, Cashner is a 4/5 starter in SD when everyone's healthy.

Look up the average velocity of starters and Cashner is right up there. He has hit 103 on the gun. He has more movement when he throws slower and can control better. Also, Cashner only question was health not stuff. I don't know where you are getting 4-5. Its ridiculous. If he is healthy the guys arm is front of the rotation stuff.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130523&content_id=48396508&c_id=sd

 

[beckdawg]

Look up the average velocity of starters and Cashner is right up there. He has hit 103 on the gun. He has more movement when he throws slower and can control better. Also, Cashner only question was health not stuff. I don't know where you are getting 4-5. Its ridiculous. If he is healthy the guys arm is front of the rotation stuff.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130523&content_id=48396508&c_id=sd

He's 3rd on their depth chart right now. And Marquis and Richards were a head of him before they got hurt. That makes him a 4th or 5th starter. What's difficult to understand about that? Also, having front of the rotation stuff and being healthy doesn't make him a front of the rotation starter. He's 9-8 with a 3.40 ERA pitching in arguably the best pitching park in the league. No matter how you try and slice it, that's not a front of the rotation starter.

Is it possible that he's just been set back by injuries? Maybe but this isn't a case like say Strasberg where he went out in his rookie year was 15-6 with a 3.16 ERA and 11 k/9 and then hurt his elbow. Nothing Cashner has done thus far screams elite pitcher. What he's done this year statistically hasn't been much better than what Wood has done and I don't see many suggesting Wood will be a front line starter. Additionally, he has 3 years of arbitration left starting in 2014. So, if he does figure it out in the next 2 years they only have him cost controlled shortly. To project him as a front line starter at this point is pure speculation. Just because he throws hard doesn't guarantee anything. There's tons of guys who have a similar make up as him and were forced into the bullpen.

Also, if there's one thing this front office has been exceedingly good at, it is pitchers. We're talking Maholm, Feldman, Strop, and Wood have all been much better than expected. Arrieta has even shown flashes. Jackson is questionable but his metrics like him better than his regular stats.

Rizzo's floor appears to be what it is now. He may never reach his ceiling but at the very least he's proven to be a solid major league player who can start some where at 1B in the league no matter what. Cashner's best, and only, year he's put up numbers consistent with 4th and 5th starters while pitching much better in arguably the best pitching park in the league. He's had significant injury history and he's 27. So, to sit here and suggest he's even a 25% shot of becoming a top of the rotation starter is a stretch. If it were just a matter of him being healthy he'd be putting up better numbers this year. There's more than enough reason to be skeptical about Cashner.

 

[SilenceS]

He's 3rd on their depth chart right now. And Marquis and Richards were a head of him before they got hurt. That makes him a 4th or 5th starter. What's difficult to understand about that? Also, having front of the rotation stuff and being healthy doesn't make him a front of the rotation starter. He's 9-8 with a 3.40 ERA pitching in arguably the best pitching park in the league. No matter how you try and slice it, that's not a front of the rotation starter.

Is it possible that he's just been set back by injuries? Maybe but this isn't a case like say Strasberg where he went out in his rookie year was 15-6 with a 3.16 ERA and 11 k/9 and then hurt his elbow. Nothing Cashner has done thus far screams elite pitcher. What he's done this year statistically hasn't been much better than what Wood has done and I don't see many suggesting Wood will be a front line starter. Additionally, he has 3 years of arbitration left starting in 2014. So, if he does figure it out in the next 2 years they only have him cost controlled shortly. To project him as a front line starter at this point is pure speculation. Just because he throws hard doesn't guarantee anything. There's tons of guys who have a similar make up as him and were forced into the bullpen.

Also, if there's one thing this front office has been exceedingly good at, it is pitchers. We're talking Maholm, Feldman, Strop, and Wood have all been much better than expected. Arrieta has even shown flashes. Jackson is questionable but his metrics like him better than his regular stats.

Rizzo's floor appears to be what it is now. He may never reach his ceiling but at the very least he's proven to be a solid major league player who can start some where at 1B in the league no matter what. Cashner's best, and only, year he's put up numbers consistent with 4th and 5th starters while pitching much better in arguably the best pitching park in the league. He's had significant injury history and he's 27. So, to sit here and suggest he's even a 25% shot of becoming a top of the rotation starter is a stretch. If it were just a matter of him being healthy he'd be putting up better numbers this year. There's more than enough reason to be skeptical about Cashner.

You are fucking with me right? If you use depth chart as a reference of what he is then this convo is done. I didn't know a guy pitching in his first full season with an ERA of 3.40 is nothing special. Shit that would make him better than Shark. Shark must be a 4 or a 5 as well.

 

[SilenceS]

I have no problem with the trade because I still feel its TBD but it seems like any player not on the Cubs you downplay and any Cubs player you feel is the right move. Rizzo is having a rough here. His OBP is still not good even though he takes walks. His OPS is low for starting first baseman. He has had a rough year. Ive said he can turn it around but I hate when people dismiss his problems because he has had these problems in the past and they came back full force. Also, Rizzo got paid. Cashner has not.

 

[chibears55]

yes id still do the trade..
cubs needed a stable 1Bmen going forward and Cashner was expendable. .

The trade we ought to be questioning is giving up Archer for Garza...
getting Garza never made sense to me because Hendry did nothing else that off season to improve a 90 lost team and it showed by them losing 90 again..

 

[SilenceS]

yes id still do the trade..
cubs needed a stable 1Bmen going forward and Cashner was expendable. .

The trade we ought to be questioning is giving up Archer for Garza...
getting Garza never made sense to me because Hendry did nothing else that off season to improve a 90 lost team and it showed by them losing 90 again..

We got two good years out of Garza and got back two to three top 100 to 150 players. The Cubs made out fine. Cashner ceiling is still considered higher than Archers. My point is the way we have drafted. We have two guys in the minors that could be major league first baseman. We don't have much pitching and they are really far away. Rizzo won last year. Cashner is winning this year. That's why I said its TBD and I see both sides.

 

[SilenceS]

Oh and nothing was done because the budget got shut down in '09. Its why we traded Derosa and its why Garza was traded for.

 

[beckdawg]

You are fucking with me right? If you use depth chart as a reference of what he is then this convo is done. I didn't know a guy pitching in his first full season with an ERA of 3.40 is nothing special. Shit that would make him better than Shark. Shark must be a 4 or a 5 as well.

That's what he is right now. Like it or not the Padre's are pitching him 3rd in their rotation right now and would be pitching him 4th if Richards was healthy. You're claiming the guy is a top of the rotation starter and even his team isn't treating him like that. Or is it common for #1 starters to pitch 3rd in a teams rotation? If 3.40 ERA is special then does that make Travis Wood a top of the rotation starter too? They are both 27. Wood is 9-11 with a 3.05 ERA, 6.39 K/9, 2.81 BB/9. Cashner is 9-8 with a 3.40 ERA, 6.45 K/9, and 2.66. Wood's home games are in a much more difficult park(3.53 ERA at home vs 2.36 on the road). Cashner is 2.14 at home and 4.41 on the road. His career HR/FB ratio is down from his career average of 11.5% to 8.8% this year. So, there's significant reason to believe that playing at petco is inflating his stats.

Additionally, what's the deal with asking people's opinion and then telling them their opinion is wrong? You asked would we do the trade again. Myself and others said yes because we feel Cashner is a 4th or 5th starter and then you proceed to tell us why our statement isn't true despite the fact his stats are in line with a 4th starter, namely Wood. You're claiming Cashner is a front line starter based on what he might be not what he is. If that's what you believe then fine that's your opinion. But don't go around here attacking people because they disagree with your opinion in a topic where you asked for their opinion. The stats say he's as good as Travis Wood right now. Travis Wood is a 4th or 5th starter. So, until the day Cashner reaches his potential, he's a 4th or 5th starter which coincidentally is where the Padres have him slotted in their own organization.

As for Rizzo, people are discounting his trouble because he just turned 24. As I showed, the majority of the top 15 power hitters struggled before they turned 25 so it's not like he's the only one. Cashner's 27 and while pitching ok this season, more is expected from him because generally, by age 27 players are what they are going to be. Sure there are exceptions. One that pops to mind is Chris Carpenter. But there's tons of other guys like Joba Chamberlain, Aroldis Chapman, and Aaron Crow who've had fastballs just as fast and who've been relegated to bullpen duty. The concerns about Cashner are perfectly valid.

 

[SilenceS]

That's what he is right now. Like it or not the Padre's are pitching him 3rd in their rotation right now and would be pitching him 4th if Richards was healthy. You're claiming the guy is a top of the rotation starter and even his team isn't treating him like that. Or is it common for #1 starters to pitch 3rd in a teams rotation? If 3.40 ERA is special then does that make Travis Wood a top of the rotation starter too? They are both 27. Wood is 9-11 with a 3.05 ERA, 6.39 K/9, 2.81 BB/9. Cashner is 9-8 with a 3.40 ERA, 6.45 K/9, and 2.66. Wood's home games are in a much more difficult park(3.53 ERA at home vs 2.36 on the road). Cashner is 2.14 at home and 4.41 on the road. His career HR/FB ratio is down from his career average of 11.5% to 8.8% this year. So, there's significant reason to believe that playing at petco is inflating his stats.

Additionally, what's the deal with asking people's opinion and then telling them their opinion is wrong? You asked would we do the trade again. Myself and others said yes because we feel Cashner is a 4th or 5th starter and then you proceed to tell us why our statement isn't true despite the fact his stats are in line with a 4th starter, namely Wood. You're claiming Cashner is a front line starter based on what he might be not what he is. If that's what you believe then fine that's your opinion. But don't go around here attacking people because they disagree with your opinion in a topic where you asked for their opinion. The stats say he's as good as Travis Wood right now. Travis Wood is a 4th or 5th starter. So, until the day Cashner reaches his potential, he's a 4th or 5th starter which coincidentally is where the Padres have him slotted in their own organization.

As for Rizzo, people are discounting his trouble because he just turned 24. As I showed, the majority of the top 15 power hitters struggled before they turned 25 so it's not like he's the only one. Cashner's 27 and while pitching ok this season, more is expected from him because generally, by age 27 players are what they are going to be. Sure there are exceptions. One that pops to mind is Chris Carpenter. But there's tons of other guys like Joba Chamberlain, Aroldis Chapman, and Aaron Crow who've had fastballs just as fast and who've been relegated to bullpen duty. The concerns about Cashner are perfectly valid.

Whoa dude, the point of a discussion board is to have a discussion. Not agree with everything. I gave my side with articles and stats. Depth chart has nothing to do with what a pitcher is. That is only for beginning of the season and nothing else. You get pissed off when people don't agree with you. That's your problem. I stated what my issues were with Rizzo. You dismissed them cause he is 24. I am a level headed fan. Im not a fan boy. So, if you going to get your panties in a wad over a debate then put me on ignore. I have no problem with it. You evidentally are over sensitive and have problems with anyone who is not on the Cubs team. You stated 4th or 5th starter because of a depth chart. He is top 25 in the NL in all major categories except wins. I don't see where you can put him as a 4th or 5th starter. Wood is def. not a 4th or 5th starter now. He has been a QS machine and has turned a major corner in his pitching. Also, you keep talking about Cashner fastball. He has two other plus pitches not just the fastball. I feel like you have never seen him pitch or have seen him once. So, yet again, if you cant handle people disagreeing with you on a discussion board then put me ignore because its what it is for. Not for me to coddle some person on the internet.

 

[SilenceS]

Oh and you are also banking on Rizzo becoming better not what he is at the present time. Soooo yea.

 

[SilenceS]

Oh and I have stated numerous times that I get both sides of the argument. You just seem to ignore it.

 

[beckdawg]

We have two guys in the minors that could be major league first baseman. We don't have much pitching and they are really far away. Rizzo won last year. Cashner is winning this year. That's why I said its TBD and I see both sides.

Neither of the two players, I assume you're talking about Bryant and Vogelbach, are ready for the majors. Until that point there's not really any point worrying about it. If they don't develop into quality players it's a good thing Rizzo is here. If they do then you have a trading piece in either Rizzo or one of them. Not to mention, it's probably 2 years before they are up full time at the earliest and at that point you will have gotten 3.5 years out of Rizzo even if they do have to move him. Cashner hasn't done anything yet with the Padres to make the cubs regret trading him be cause they got as good play out of Wood and Maholm/Feldman. So, at this point, the cubs needed a power hitting 1b. They didn't need Cashner.

 

[Cubs2008]

Beckdawg- I don't post much so forgive me if you've said this before. But what are your opinions on Samardzija? Essentially, out side of injuries they're the same guy. I tend to think that you should replicate your opinion there.

I agree with Silences here. It's a tossup between Cashner and Rizzo still as far as who'll be the more valuable major league player. I'd give Rizzo the edge as far as MLB production thus far but I agree that the Cubs are fairly strong a 1st and you can never have enough pitching.

Many of you are missing the point of the thread and wearing your Cubbie blue glasses rather than thinking for yourselves.

 

[beckdawg]

Whoa dude, the point of a discussion board is to have a discussion. Not agree with everything. I gave my side with articles and stats. Depth chart has nothing to do with what a pitcher is. That is only for beginning of the season and nothing else. You get pissed off when people don't agree with you. That's your problem. I stated what my issues were with Rizzo. You dismissed them cause he is 24. I am a level headed fan. Im not a fan boy. So, if you going to get your panties in a wad over a debate then put me on ignore. I have no problem with it. You evidentally are over sensitive and have problems with anyone who is not on the Cubs team. You stated 4th or 5th starter because of a depth chart. He is top 25 in the NL in all major categories except wins. I don't see where you can put him as a 4th or 5th starter. Wood is def. not a 4th or 5th starter now. He has been a QS machine and has turned a major corner in his pitching. Also, you keep talking about Cashner fastball. He has two other plus pitches not just the fastball. I feel like you have never seen him pitch or have seen him once. So, yet again, if you cant handle people disagreeing with you on a discussion board then put me ignore because its what it is for. Not for me to coddle some person on the internet.

I couldn't care less if everyone agrees with me. My problem is when you state an opinion as though it's fact and then attack others like there isn't a legitimate reason to disagree. I've been perfectly calm this entire time. Every post I've tried to provide as much evidence as I can to support my argument. I've not once called anyone names. I even looked at things from your side by bringing up a guy like Chris Carpenter who had a career like you are suggesting Cashner will have. Not once have I said any of your arguments is stupid which is basically what you did with my comment about the depth chart. But apparently suggesting Rizzo may be having the same struggles that the majority of the top 15 power hitters in the game today also had makes me a fan boy and not at all level headed.

I'll make this simple. Do you think any team would give up two top 100 prospects for Cashner right now? Because if you really believe he's proven to be a top of the rotation starter that's the value that should be placed on him with 3 yeas of arbitration left. The cubs gave up more than that to get Garza. If you do believe that then fine, it's your opinion. But I seriously doubt many other people would agree.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

Rizzo's .251 BABIP is insanely low for a guy with a full season of at-bats. That number will only correct itself next year.

 

[SilenceS]

I couldn't care less if everyone agrees with me. My problem is when you state an opinion as though it's fact and then attack others like there isn't a legitimate reason to disagree. I've been perfectly calm this entire time. Every post I've tried to provide as much evidence as I can to support my argument. I've not once called anyone names. I even looked at things from your side by bringing up a guy like Chris Carpenter who had a career like you are suggesting Cashner will have. Not once have I said any of your arguments is stupid which is basically what you did with my comment about the depth chart. But apparently suggesting Rizzo may be having the same struggles that the majority of the top 15 power hitters in the game today also had makes me a fan boy and not at all level headed.

I'll make this simple. Do you think any team would give up two top 100 prospects for Cashner right now? Because if you really believe he's proven to be a top of the rotation starter that's the value that should be placed on him with 3 yeas of arbitration left. The cubs gave up more than that to get Garza. If you do believe that then fine, it's your opinion. But I seriously doubt many other people would agree.

Last thing I am going to say to you, I would re read what people type because you take things personally when they aren't and you get bent out of shape when someone disagrees with you. It has happened numerous times. Lucky KB and them aren't here or you would be really worked up. lol Its a message board. Different people make different strokes.

 

[SilenceS]

Rizzo's .251 BABIP is insanely low for a guy with a full season of at-bats. That number will only correct itself next year.

Not completely. Yes, it is low. The problem Rizzo is having is not making consistent hard contact. I also believe his mechanics have gotten messed up again. He guesses to much and he is a suck for a hard low one. All correctable, but they aren't easy fixes. I like Rizzo. I just don't understand how some just chalk it up to being young but turn around and say Castro is fucked. Rizzo is much more patient, but there is a lot more to hitting and being a cornerstone player then taking a walk.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

Last thing I am going to say to you, I would re read what people type because you take things personally when they aren't and you get bent out of shape when someone disagrees with you. It has happened numerous times. Lucky KB and them aren't here or you would be really worked up. lol Its a message board. Different people make different strokes.

Dude - KB, salami, patg006, and whoever else that's part of their robot troll gang have been banned from multiple websites, and there is reason for that. Their opinions don't hold too much, if any validity. Second of all, beckdawg hasn't gotten bent out of shape over your responses. He was merely defending hisopinion while pointing out your flaws as a poster.

 

[SilenceS]

Dude - KB, salami, patg006, and whoever else that's part of their robot troll gang have been banned from multiple websites, and there is reason for that. Their opinions don't hold too much, if any validity. Second of all, beckdawg hasn't gotten bent out of shape over your responses. He was merely defending hisopinion while pointing out your flaws as a poster.

Lol, my flaws? I wouldn't start Hurricane. I have always had my own opinions. I would look into the mirror before throwing stones because your post on CBS were not the greatest.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

Personally, I don't see any way that Cashner would be the same pitcher at Wrigley as he is at PETCO. This is his second season pitching in that ballpark and didn't break into the rotation this year until injuries struck in San Diego. And at 27, time is running out in his "development". He may work for the Padres. Good for them. I just don't think he would have been the same here...

Conversely, Rizzo is already among the NL leaders in both walks and doubles and has a ridiculously low BABIP. It's way too soon to write him off right now because of a low average. If you can't see that Rizzo has a higher ceiling than Cashner than frankly you're probably just trying your best to be a debbie downer.