Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candidates

[TheStig]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

houheffna wrote:

I'm not getting in this debate again but why would you want BG around when getting Kobe? It would make no sense to demand he stay, he and ben wallace were the big pieces going out in scenarios to match salary and give the lakers a scorer. If we sent out Deng in the trade we would look like a don nelson team.

Are you arguing that demanding Deng stay in a possible trade with Kobe was sensible?

Just as much as I think if we were trading for Bron he would demand BG stay. When you get an elite talent, the previous starter becomes expendable, unless its Kirk, he is just so damn feisty.

 

[Dpauley23]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

Fred wrote:

houheffna wrote:

It is also hypocritical to talk up Noah's defense, and totally ignore the fact that Deng was and is a better and more effective defensive player than Gordon ever was. And again, Kobe didn't insist on having Ben Gordon on his team before coming here, nor did the Lakers insist on having Gordon be a part of any trade concerning Gordon. Magic Johnson went on TNT and said that as a member of the Lakers' board, no Deng, no trade...simple as that. .

#1. It's not hyporcritical to talk up Noah's defense when I've always said interior defense is far more important than perimeter defense. In 08-09, Orlando had one of the better defensive teams in the league last year with one great defensive center and some of the worst perimeter defenders in the history of basketball. (i.e. Hedo Turgosuck)

#2. This "Kobe didn't insist on having Ben Gordon on his team" is honestly one of the most ridiculous arguments I've heard over the years to back up the Deng is better than BG argument. KOBE IS A SHOOTING GUARD! BEN GORDON IS A SHOOTING GUARD! HELLO!! Of course he would rather be paired up with the legit 3. BG is a 2 whose greatest assest was closing games. Why would Kobe want to be paired up with another shooting guard who needed the ball in the 4th? Of course he would rather have Deng. Kobe also wanted Artest over Ariza. We'll see how that works out. But Kobe's insistence on Deng sure as hell isn't an argument for why Deng was more important to the success of the 06-07 Bulls.

I don't get how you can rip on Deng's defense and then proclaim Noah like he's the greatest defender ever. If we don't get Lebron we'll never win a title just because of how awful Noah is in the low post of defense. Do you really think he could ever stop Dwight Howard? Furthermore who are these quick 3s in the league? SF's are usually a step or two smaller that's why a guy like Pierce, who has lost a step, is still able to be so good because of the slow defenders. Too me Deng is top 10 defender at his position

 

[Dpauley23]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

Fred after just listenting to the podcast I'm still trying to figure out why you think Doug Collins is such a great coach? A guy who has had a career .523 winning percentage just doesn't seem so great to me

 

[Fred]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

Look at the record of the teams Doug Collins took over in the year before he was hired.

The 85-86 Bulls were 30-52. The Bulls hired Doug.

Then:
1986-87 40 42
1987-88 50 32
1988-89 47 35

He was fired after taking the Bulls to the Eastern Conference finals. He was a great coach for our team.

The 94-95 Pistons were 28-54. The Pistons hired Doug.

1995-96 46 36
1996-97 54 28
1997-98 45 21

The 00-01 Wizards were 19-63. Michael Jordan hired Doug.

2001-02 37 45
2002-03 37 45

He has a proven track record of making the teams he coached better. What I loved most about Collins is that he coached to his strengths...he doesn't have a set offense or d. He'll adapt to what he has.

 

[TheStig]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

Fred your numbers are skewed. The 85-86 Bulls had MJ out for almost the whole year with a broken foot. Adding a healthy MJ should get you at least 10 games. Add to that Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen the following year. Part of the Pistons improvement was that their young stars in Hill and Houston improved and they added their best front court player in otis thorpe and the wizards improved because they brought in MJ. The only situation that I think he outperformed his talent might of been with the Pistons. Phil Jackson certainly had more luck here than Collins did in his first three years.

You also have his final year in Detroit wrong. He went 21 and 24 before being fired. And both the Bulls and Pistons were better the year after he was fired. He also couldn't get the Pistons out of the first round or the wizards into the playoffs. I don't view Doug as a bad coach but he isn't the guy for this team. He is too high strung.

 

[Dpauley23]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

Fred wrote:

Look at the record of the teams Doug Collins took over in the year before he was hired.

The 85-86 Bulls were 30-52. The Bulls hired Doug.

Then:
1986-87 40 42
1987-88 50 32
1988-89 47 35

He was fired after taking the Bulls to the Eastern Conference finals. He was a great coach for our team.

The 94-95 Pistons were 28-54. The Pistons hired Doug.

1995-96 46 36
1996-97 54 28
1997-98 45 21

The 00-01 Wizards were 19-63. Michael Jordan hired Doug.

2001-02 37 45
2002-03 37 45

He has a proven track record of making the teams he coached better. What I loved most about Collins is that he coached to his strengths...he doesn't have a set offense or d. He'll adapt to what he has.

What are you talking about Collins adopting to strengths. He shouted out every play for the Bulls and played at the slowest pace in the league when they had Pippen and Jordan, a team that was made for running. They did exactly that after they replaced Collins with Phil and won a title

 

[Fred]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

Dpauley23 wrote:

Fred wrote:

Look at the record of the teams Doug Collins took over in the year before he was hired.

The 85-86 Bulls were 30-52. The Bulls hired Doug.

Then:
1986-87 40 42
1987-88 50 32
1988-89 47 35

He was fired after taking the Bulls to the Eastern Conference finals. He was a great coach for our team.

The 94-95 Pistons were 28-54. The Pistons hired Doug.

1995-96 46 36
1996-97 54 28
1997-98 45 21

The 00-01 Wizards were 19-63. Michael Jordan hired Doug.

2001-02 37 45
2002-03 37 45

He has a proven track record of making the teams he coached better. What I loved most about Collins is that he coached to his strengths...he doesn't have a set offense or d. He'll adapt to what he has.

What are you talking about Collins adopting to strengths. He shouted out every play for the Bulls and played at the slowest pace in the league when they had Pippen and Jordan, a team that was made for running. They did exactly that after they replaced Collins with Phil and won a title

They did no such thing. Collins was fired because he refused to run the triangle, which requires some type of low post threat.

 

[Fred]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant weren't great rookies. I'd hardly qualify them as good. They obviously had talent, but neither player made the all-rookie team. It took them several years of growing pains to develop into quality NBA players.

 

[Fred]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

This is Doug Collins' roster during this first year as coach. They were 40-42 in a Eastern conference with a great Boston Celtics team, a great Pistons team, and a very good Milwaukee and Atlanta team..with a total of 11 teams in the entire conference. The East was much stronger in those days. The Bulls roster he was handed was a complete joke. John Paxson was the team's 3rd leading scorer, with Oakley #2. And they somehow won 40 games in the East. He did a great job.

Roster
No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
20 Gene Banks F-G 6-7 215 May 15, 1959 5 Duke University
17 Mike Brown C-F 6-9 257 July 19, 1963 R George Washington University
11 Fred Cofield G 6-3 190 January 4, 1962 1 Eastern Michigan University
22 Steve Colter G 6-3 165 July 24, 1962 2 New Mexico State University
40 Dave Corzine C 6-11 250 April 25, 1956 8 DePaul University
25 Earl Cureton F-C 6-9 210 September 3, 1957 6 University of Detroit Mercy
30 Darren Daye F-G 6-8 220 November 30, 1960 3 University of California, Los Angeles
23 Michael Jordan G-F 6-6 195 February 17, 1963 2 University of North Carolina
10 Pete Myers G-F 6-6 180 September 15, 1963 R University of Arkansas at Little Rock
34 Charles Oakley F-C 6-8 225 December 18, 1963 1 Virginia Union University
5 John Paxson G 6-2 185 September 29, 1960 3 University of Notre Dame
50 Ben Poquette F-C 6-9 235 May 7, 1955 9 Central Michigan University
6 Brad Sellers C-F 7-0 210 December 17, 1962 R Ohio State University
3 Sedale Threatt G 6-2 175 September 10, 1961 3 West Virginia University Institute of
21 Elston Turner G-F 6-5 190 June 10, 1959 5 University of Mississippi
31 Granville Waiters C 6-11 225 January 8, 1961 3 Ohio State University
12-24 Perry Young G 6-5 210 August 4, 1963 R Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University

 

[TheStig]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

Fred, is that team really any different than this years heat team? MJ had a better year than Wade ever did. Sellers pretty much is MB. Oakley is better than JO at this point. And pax is better than any PG on the heat. The heat were a 5 seed and won a couple more games. Is spolestra some kinda coaching genius. I'd also like to point out again that both the bulls and pistons had a better record the year after he left. Also, despite having a top 5 player for most of his coaching career, he has only made it out of the first round a couple of times. I don't see this coaching genius that Collins has. I think he has overachieved a couple of times in the regular season and has underachieved in the playoffs.

 

[houheffna]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

So throwing out all this statements within nothing to back it up won't get you anywhere. I've had enough of revisionist history with this team. Gordon had his best year in 06-07. Deng had a nice 8 weeks. Luol benefited much more Gordon on the court then Ben did from Luol. This was proven out in 08-09.

And please, can we stop it with this talk that Luol is some kind of great defender. He's not. He's an extremely limited athletically, which is what you need to be a great defender. He's a very good offensive and defensive rebounder, but he can't guard quick 3's. Unfortunately, the league is filled with them. I can go up and down the schedule over the past 3 years to show you guys who have absolutey torched Luol, highlighted with Butler's torch session of 24 on March 6th of this year that cost us a win against Dalls.

"Ben Gordon is a streak shooter who can score in bunches, but who's too short to play adequate defense at the two-guard slot." Charley Rosen

They don't double team undersized streak shooters in the NBA...sorry.

So Gordon received double attention at the end of games...great. Are you equating that with Lebron or Durant getting double teamed for four quarters, or Joe Johnson getting doubled by the same Celtic team for 4 quarters, because he is an allstar player who can do more than hit clutch shots? I hope not, because you would be wrong...

The problem with that Bulls team in 2006-2007 was that the offense was stagnant, caused by the fact that over the course of a game, NOBODY was open. Nobody commanded a double team. So lets not turn Ben Gordon into Wilt Gordon. That is definitely not the case.

How many 6Ft guards get doubled routinely anyway??? I can name a few, he is not one of them.

I am sorry but I agree with Bulls management that your scenario of Rose/Gordon as Thomas/Dumars doesn't work. Not at all. Simply because Gordon isn't on that level, he isn't Dumars, never was (no matter how much you and others hype him up to be...) never will be.

I can dig up a quote from Charles Barkley saying that Gordon should come off the bench, after the same series against Boston he said it.

Luol is a better defensive player than Gordon man...give me a break...who wasn't a better one on one defender than Gordon in that starting lineup?

Let me know when the Bulls sub in James Johnson at the end of a game to replace Deng for defensive reasons....or when that has happened in the last 5 years...they did that with Gordon routinely, I am sure you had to notice that in between his getting quadruple teamed in crunch time, they also sat him in crunch time on the defensive side of the ball...

Sooooooo...could it be possible that Kobe liked Deng because he actually felt that he could accomplish something with the guy? I think so...Kobe and Deng are homies, so that would figure into it, but that is hardly the deciding factor. I believe he liked Deng's game, and found it compatible with his...and I am sure he liked the fact that Deng showed some effectiveness on both sides of the ball as opposed to an undersized guard who gives you 30 and gives up 30...

 

[Fred]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

TheStig wrote:

Fred, is that team really any different than this years heat team? MJ had a better year than Wade ever did. Sellers pretty much is MB. Oakley is better than JO at this point. And pax is better than any PG on the heat. The heat were a 5 seed and won a couple more games. Is spolestra some kinda coaching genius. I'd also like to point out again that both the bulls and pistons had a better record the year after he left. Also, despite having a top 5 player for most of his coaching career, he has only made it out of the first round a couple of times. I don't see this coaching genius that Collins has. I think he has overachieved a couple of times in the regular season and has underachieved in the playoffs.

The 1986-87 season was also known as the "Golden Era" of the NBA. The 1987 NBA season featured up to 20 Hall of Fame players such as Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Moses Malone, Julius Erving, Isiah Thomas, Dominique Wilkins, Charles Barkley, Hakeem Olajuwon, Clyde Drexler, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Alex English, Patrick Ewing, Adrian Dantley, and Joe Dumars. - wikipedia

All those players were competing in a smaller league, so they faced these better teams more often. How many Hall of Famers are playing in the Eastern Conference this year, at or close to their prime? You can't compare the Heat's #5 seed this year to the Bulls #8 seed in 87. For one, there were only 11 teams in the Eastern Conference, and the teams were much more talented in the East in that era. It was a buzzsaw...yet somehow the Bulls won 40 games.

 

[Fred]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

houheffna wrote:

So Gordon received double attention at the end of games...great. Are you equating that with Lebron or Durant getting double teamed for four quarters, or Joe Johnson getting doubled by the same Celtic team for 4 quarters, because he is an allstar player who can do more than hit clutch shots? I hope not, because you would be wrong...

You said in an earlier post: "That said the Deng vs. BG and this drawing double teams stuff...stop it! I addressed that on your show. NOBODY drew a double team, nobody!"

I responded with the 2007 quote from Skiles about Gordon being double teamed 40-ft from the basket to point out your inaccurate recollection. I'm not equating BG to Lebron or Durant. But Gordon did draw double teams, and it didn't just occur in the 4th, and we now only have 1 player who draws double teams instead of 2. This isn't good for the offense.

You've been listening to Neil Funk too much. Gordon wasn't a problem defensively in 08-09. Check out Joe Johnson's games against the Bulls that year compared to his games this year. 2 Shooting guards torched the bulls in 08-09: Wade on 3.9.09 and Ray Allen in 2 games during the playoffs. Of course, Gordon didn't guard Wade for the majority of the game on 3.9.09, but he did bring an additional 42 points. And BG outscored Ray in Game 2, and BG sat on the bench with foul trouble for a large portion of Game 6, Ray's other big game. Allen scored on Hinrich, Salmons, etc. It didn't matter.

 

[houheffna]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

You said in an earlier post: "That said the Deng vs. BG and this drawing double teams stuff...stop it! I addressed that on your show. NOBODY drew a double team, nobody!"

I responded with the 2007 quote from Skiles about Gordon being double teamed 40-ft from the basket to point out your inaccurate recollection. I'm not equating BG to Lebron or Durant. But Gordon did draw double teams, and it didn't just occur in the 4th, and we now only have 1 player who draws double teams instead of 2. This isn't good for the offense.

You've been listening to Neil Funk too much. Gordon wasn't a problem defensively in 08-09. Check out Joe Johnson's games against the Bulls that year compared to his games this year. 2 Shooting guards torched the bulls in 08-09: Wade on 3.9.09 and Ray Allen in 2 games during the playoffs. Of course, Gordon didn't guard Wade for the majority of the game on 3.9.09, but he did bring an additional 42 points. And BG outscored Ray in Game 2, and BG sat on the bench with foul trouble for a large portion of Game 6, Ray's other big game. Allen scored on Hinrich, Salmons, etc. It didn't matter.

I quoted Rosen and you bring up Funk? Put it this way, Rosen knows more basketball then me, you and Funk combined...believe that. By the way, outscoring doesn't necessarily mean good defense. Trying to paint Gordon as some defensive stopper is WAY over the top.
His was so skilled defensively, that they would rest him at the end of games? Is that it?

Gordon didn't guard Wade because he CAN'T! Thabo and Kirk are better at guarding Wade than Gordon was, much better.

"It brings back my point from long ago, that Hinrich was the perfect guard to play with Gordon. Didn't require lots of shots, defended the two on defense, played PG on offense. It's going to be tough for Gordon to find such an ideal teammate to complement his abilities elsewhere."

Now this seems to insinuate that other players may have been better than Gordon at guarding his position, might explain the success defensively against that position, I don't know...maybe Skiles and Del Negro got it wrong.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

houheffna wrote:

You said in an earlier post: "That said the Deng vs. BG and this drawing double teams stuff...stop it! I addressed that on your show. NOBODY drew a double team, nobody!"

I responded with the 2007 quote from Skiles about Gordon being double teamed 40-ft from the basket to point out your inaccurate recollection. I'm not equating BG to Lebron or Durant. But Gordon did draw double teams, and it didn't just occur in the 4th, and we now only have 1 player who draws double teams instead of 2. This isn't good for the offense.

You've been listening to Neil Funk too much. Gordon wasn't a problem defensively in 08-09. Check out Joe Johnson's games against the Bulls that year compared to his games this year. 2 Shooting guards torched the bulls in 08-09: Wade on 3.9.09 and Ray Allen in 2 games during the playoffs. Of course, Gordon didn't guard Wade for the majority of the game on 3.9.09, but he did bring an additional 42 points. And BG outscored Ray in Game 2, and BG sat on the bench with foul trouble for a large portion of Game 6, Ray's other big game. Allen scored on Hinrich, Salmons, etc. It didn't matter.

I quoted Rosen and you bring up Funk? Put it this way, Rosen knows more basketball then me, you and Funk combined...believe that. By the way, outscoring doesn't necessarily mean good defense. Trying to paint Gordon as some defensive stopper is WAY over the top.
His was so skilled defensively, that they would rest him at the end of games? Is that it?

Gordon didn't guard Wade because he CAN'T! Thabo and Kirk are better at guarding Wade than Gordon was, much better.

"It brings back my point from long ago, that Hinrich was the perfect guard to play with Gordon. Didn't require lots of shots, defended the two on defense, played PG on offense. It's going to be tough for Gordon to find such an ideal teammate to complement his abilities elsewhere."

Now this seems to insinuate that other players may have been better than Gordon at guarding his position, might explain the success defensively against that position, I don't know...maybe Skiles and Del Negro got it wrong.

I'd definitely have to agree. BG couldn't guard Wade even if the handchecking rule was what it was in the 90s. Hinrich is one of the best Wade defenders in the league...and I'm sure you can think of 5 million occurrences where Wade had a big game against us. Reason is: Wade is a superstar and to contain him is an accomplishment. If Hinrich or Thabo gives up a big game to Wade, imagine what would happen if BG was on him instead. BG is average at best defensively.

 

[Diddy1122]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

Ummm...wasn't this a thread about coaching canidates? Last I heard BG is still playing, unless he retired after one bad season to throw his hat in the coaching ring.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

Diddy1122 wrote:

Ummm...wasn't this a thread about coaching canidates? Last I heard BG is still playing, unless he retired after one bad season to throw his hat in the coaching ring.

Everything on this board comes back to Gordon. Didn't you notice the site was renamed to bengordonpodcasters.com? :laugh:

 

[Captain Klank]

Mike Dunleavy 1
Mike Fratello 2
Avery Johnson 4
Byron Scott 8
Jeff Van Gundy 9
Lawrence Frank 3
Kevin McHale 6
Sam Mitchell 5
Maurice Cheeks 7
John Calipari 9
Tom Izzo 8

 

[pinkizdead]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

Ummm...wasn't this a thread about coaching canidates? Last I heard BG is still playing, unless he retired after one bad season to throw his hat in the coaching ring.

Everything on this board comes back to Gordon. Didn't you notice the site was renamed to bengordonpodcasters.com? :laugh:

i believe it was the hinrichhaters.com

 

[Kush77]

Re:Chicago Bullseye 101: Rank the Coaching Candida

I want Byron Scott to coach the Bulls. I think I might of said that in this thread. I can't remember.

He's won at both of his stops and has coached great PG. Won titles as a player. I just think he'd be the best choice.