Close the door on the Lebron/MJ Argument

[DCguy]

No he can't.

LeBron is a better player than Wade. He's the best player on the planet.

Every NBA player travels.

Go back and look at some of the travels MJ got away with. It happens. LeBron is FAR from the only player in the NBA who travels.



And when the MVP of the league needed to score Lebron shut him down then closed out the game.

Lebron hasn't had the best Finals. We know. But to some how paint with broad strokes about LeBron James as aplayer based on the last few games when he carried the Heat for the previous 15 or so is off base.

You're making excuses for LeBron. Rose was settling for the jumper instead of attacking LeBron. LeBron cannot shutdown Rose, no one can. But you are just making excuses that ESPN makes for him every time he loses a series or doesn't play up to the hype that they build for him. We are all supposed to be "Witnesses" but to what? Great talent, overrated expectations.

If the Heat lose this series, it will be because LeBron did to Wade that everyone said his Cavalier teammates did to him. Not show up. Ever since he tried to take over game 2 and couldn't and Dallas came back and won, he hasn't been the same since.

As for my Wade Comment. Yes he can. Wade is doing everything better. He is a more creative finisher, and he doesn't have to travel. I watched Jordan's games. No one travels as obviously as LeBron does. Don't excuse him for that. Everyone does travel, but this guy pushes off all the time and travels WAY too much. Almost every time he attacks he travels, Jordan didn't come close traveling that often and he never had to resort to crab dribbling, which she be banned, as LeBron does. But that is the best player on the planet? I personally don't think so.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

LeBron James is a poor man's Magic and a broke man's Jordan wrapped into one package... with great defense... when he isn't being passive.

He probably is the best player in the league (I could make a strong case for Dwight Howard) but I don't think that there's one thing about LeBron James that makes him dominate a game against a good, solid team like the Mavericks.

He isn't a great wing scorer like a Jordan, Bryant, or maybe even a Durant, Wade, or Anthony.

He isn't a great passer like Chris Paul or Deron Williams or many other PGs in the NBA.

He's a great rebounder for his position, but he's not Dennis Rodman or Kevin Willis on that either. He's a great defender but he's not Michael Cooper, Scottie Pippen, or Michael Jordan.

This is a guy who needs Wade to be the first option scorer. He once scored 29 out of 30 points against a depleted, aging Pistons team, but that wasn't against a great opponent.

 

[FirstTimer]

You're making excuses for LeBron

No I'm not.

In fact I'm doing the exact opposite.

What "excuse" did I make for him? You're either not reading or have no idea what the word "excuse" means.



.

Rose was settling for the jumper instead of attacking LeBron.

Because he couldn't get around him because LeBron is an elite defender.

LeBron cannot shutdown Rose, no one can.

LOL at this. He seemed to do a damn good job of it in the ECF when asked to.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

LeBron got plenty of help guarding Derrick Rose, too. They were trapping Rose all day and forcing him to take a contested shot or dish off to Deng/Noah/Korver... and just hope it wouldn't be a turnover... let's not forget that.

Rose doesn't have the luxury of having a solid offensive weapon to dish the ball off to. Jason Terry did. And they counted on LeBron to guard him one on one... not the best match up because Terry is a little too quick for James.

 

[DCguy]

No I'm not.

In fact I'm doing the exact opposite.

What "excuse" did I make for him? You're either not reading or have no idea what the word "excuse" means.



.
Because he couldn't get around him because LeBron is an elite defender.

LOL at this. He seemed to do a damn good job of it in the ECF when asked to.

Nothing about LeBron's defense is elite lol, don't get carried away. He is a good defender, but not elite. Rose got by him at times but LeBron had help right under the rim, which also Made Rose not force it and go for the jumper.

Everything you are saying to defend LeBron is an excuse. He didn't have help in Cleveland. Everyone travels, as if it is ok that he travels 75% of the time he attacks the rim. Those are excuses. So I actually do know what the word means.

I'm not judging LeBron by the last few games. I have noticed that he is a great regular season player and an off again on again star in the playoffs. Right now he is off. Hopefully for you he can win or you will have to find away to justify this series loss; because saying Cleveland being sorry and him not having help won't work this year with him being with a new team and two players better than anybody on that Cleveland roster.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Nothing about LeBron's defense is elite lol, don't get carried away. He is a good defender, but not elite. Rose got by him at times but LeBron had help right under the rim, which also Made Rose not force it and go for the jumper.

He has occasional let downs but his defense is clearly elite. He's not defensive player of the year-worthy but who is a clearly better defensive player than LeBron on the wing?

 

[FirstTimer]

He isn't a great wing scorer like a Jordan, Bryant, or maybe even a Durant, Wade, or Anthony.

I'd put James ahead of Wade and Melo but behind Durant

He isn't a great passer like Chris Paul or Deron Williams or many other PGs in the NBA.

While true, he also has the ability to make passes those guys can't.

He's a great rebounder for his position, but he's not Dennis Rodman or Kevin Willis on that either.

LOL at the random Willis reference for a guy that had one really good season rebounding then fell back but anyways the Rodman thing really isn't an issue IMO because Rodman plays an entirely different position and James is immensely more talented on the floor as a player.

He's a great defender but he's not Michael Cooper, Scottie Pippen, or Michael Jordan.

Still an elite level defender.

This is a guy who needs Wade to be the first option scorer. He once scored 29 out of 30 points against a depleted, aging Pistons team, but that wasn't against a great opponent.

Disagree. I don't think it's so much that he need Wade to be but that he WANTS Wade to be. I think there is a difference. There was a great article in SI that I've linked here before about Riley's pitch to James in regards to on court strategy. He said he wanted James to be more of a Magic type player, which is what James always wanted anyways. More of a facilitator role in that mold. James has and can lead the NBA in scoring so he can be a #1 option. It's not so much that he can't but that he doesn't want that role. I'm not really sure LeBron ever wanted to be the next Jordan. IMO he wanted to be more along the lines of the next Magic/Oscar.

 

[FirstTimer]

Nothing about LeBron's defense is elite

His entire defensive game is.

Quit with the stupid player evaluations.

. He didn't have help in Cleveland.

Because he didn't. How is this even a debatable point? Cleveland lost the better team in San Antonio. It's not like LeBron did anything to cost his team the series. It wasn't even close. The Spurs were better and won.

Everyone travels

They do. How much NBA basketball have you watched?

as if it is ok that he travels 75% of the time

I'd LOVE to see you try and quantify that with ANY sort of proof.

Those aren't "excuses". They are just facts.

I'm not judging LeBron by the last few games.

You clearly are.

Hopefully for you he can win or you will have to find away to justify this series loss;

Newsflash:
I'm rooting for the Mavs.

 

[DCguy]

His entire defensive game is.

Quit with the stupid player evaluations.


Because he didn't. How is this even a debatable point? Cleveland lost the better team in San Antonio. It's not like LeBron did anything to cost his team the series. It wasn't even close. The Spurs were better and won.

They do. How much NBA basketball have you watched?

I'd LOVE to see you try and quantify that with ANY sort of proof.

Those aren't "excuses". They are just facts.



You clearly are.

Newsflash:
I'm rooting for the Mavs.

I'm not evaluating anybody, I gave you my opinion just as you gave yours. So it's not a "stupid player evaluation" it's called an opinion.

Seems like I watched just as much as you have. We just are interpreting games in a completely different way. I respect your opinions. But it seems we both seem to have a rooting interest in the Bulls lol.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I'd put James ahead of Wade and Melo but behind Durant

I think Wade is a little bit more valuable as an iso. player than LeBron simply because Wade has much of the same leaping ability and also has the ability to get into the seems of the defense in a way LeBron James cannot. Wade also has a better post game than LeBron. And is a much better mid-range shooter than LeBron. I would rather have LeBron shooting the contest three than Wade, but that's the main thing I would take LeBron for over Wade in a halfcourt offense in regard to scoring.

LOL at the random Willis reference for a guy that had one really good season rebounding then fell back but anyways the Rodman thing really isn't an issue IMO because Rodman plays an entirely different position and James is immensely more talented on the floor as a player.

I brought up Willis and Rodman to illustrate two guys who could take over a game with rebounding. James is a very good rebounder, but he isn't going to take over the game at will on the boards. A main part of James' value is that he does a lot of things really well but nothing that is best in the league. James is more like top 5-10 in just about every category. Not top 1.

Disagree. I don't think it's so much that he need Wade to be but that he WANTS Wade to be. I think there is a difference. There was a great article in SI that I've linked here before about Riley's pitch to James in regards to on court strategy. He said he wanted James to be more of a Magic type player, which is what James always wanted anyways. More of a facilitator role in that mold. James has and can lead the NBA in scoring so he can be a #1 option. It's not so much that he can't but that he doesn't want that role. I'm not really sure LeBron ever wanted to be the next Jordan. IMO he wanted to be more along the lines of the next Magic/Oscar.

I understand that James isn't the kind of guy that wants to be the main scorer and really wants to be the facilitator. But he really does fade away in times of adversity. He needed to step up his scoring with Wade hurting. He didn't attack and fill in the holes missing in the way a leader of a Finals-winning team should be.

 

[FirstTimer]

I'm not evaluating anybody

You just said a players defense wasn't "elite" how is that NOT an evaluation of a player?

Jesus.

Seems like I watched just as much as you have.

I've watched more than "none" so I disagree.

I think Wade is a little bit more valuable as an iso. player than LeBron simply because Wade has much of the same leaping ability

Disagree Wade has the same leaping ability but he could be a better ball handler so I might see the point here but I think LeBron's size and strength advantage along with his athletiscm at that size and his ability to get to spots on the floor and impose his will a bit make him the better pick.

I brought up Willis and Rodman to illustrate two guys who could take over a game with rebounding. James is a very good rebounder, but he isn't going to take over the game at will on the boards.

Ok?

And I don't think he's supposed to though. That's not really his "thing". I'm sure if he was told to do nothing but rebound and alotted all his energy to that he'd be fine, he also plays a wing position so you move him to more post defense areas and I'm sure you'd see a dramatic increase. The Willis/Rodman comaprison doesn't hold very much sway as how many SF's do you know "took over games with rebounding" in the entire history of the league? I think this is a prime example of putting unrealistic expectations on Lebron, no matter how talented he is.

I understand that James isn't the kind of guy that wants to be the main scorer and really wants to be the facilitator. But he really does fade away in times of adversity.

I again point to the Boston and Chicago series. He's had a bad Finals. I get it. No excuses.He's flat out played incredibly poorly when he's needed play better down the stretch. Even still the guy had a triple double the other night when he had a bad game.........that's pretty damn impressive.

On top of that the series isn't over. He comes back with two epic, good, great whatever games and wins the title and this thread looks hilarious in retrospect. Right now this thread is putting the cart before the horse. Dallas could very well win this series and LeBron could very well play poorly. But he could also come back and play well and haev Miami win it all. We will see. That stil doesn't change two things.

1. He's the best player on the planet.

2. You'd be crazy not to want him on your team.

 

[DCguy]

You just said a players defense wasn't "elite" how is that NOT an evaluation of a player?

Jesus.


I've watched more than "none" so I disagree.


Disagree Wade has the same leaping ability but he could be a better ball handler so I might see the point here but I think LeBron's size and strength advantage along with his athletiscm at that size and his ability to get to spots on the floor and impose his will a bit make him the better pick.



Ok?

And I don't think he's supposed to though. That's not really his "thing". I'm sure if he was told to do nothing but rebound and alotted all his energy to that he'd be fine, he also plays a wing position so you move him to more post defense areas and I'm sure you'd see a dramatic increase. The Willis/Rodman comaprison doesn't hold very much sway as how many SF's do you know "took over games with rebounding" in the entire history of the league? I think this is a prime example of putting unrealistic expectations on Lebron, no matter how talented he is.






I again point to the Boston and Chicago series. He's had a bad Finals. I get it. No excuses.He's flat out played incredibly poorly when he's needed play better down the stretch. Even still the guy had a triple double the other night when he had a bad game.........that's pretty damn impressive.

On top of that the series isn't over. He comes back with two epic, good, great whatever games and wins the title and this thread looks hilarious in retrospect. Right now this thread is putting the cart before the horse. Dallas could very well win this series and LeBron could very well play poorly. But he could also come back and play well and haev Miami win it all. We will see. That stil doesn't change two things.

1. He's the best player on the planet.

2. You'd be crazy not to want him on your team.

That's called an opinion. If you think that is "evaluating" and want me to stop it, then why are you doing it. Since you said LeBron is an elite defender, that sounds like an evaluation to me. So if you don't want me to do it, I think you should try not doing it yourself.

 

[Sunbiz1]

MJ was pretty much automatic in post-season by age 26. In the rare instances he had poor games, look out on the next one b/c he never allowed himself to go into slumps. That's what sets Jordan apart from the other names mentioned here. The only player arguably better than MJ was Wilt...and even that is like comparing a John Elway to a Norm Van Brocklin.

 

[WindyCity7]

People are wondering WHY LeBron James hasn't been playing as well as he's supposed to . . . well according to his teammate - it's because of Jason Terry's TRASH TALK!!!

According to the insider, Jason Terry's trash talk goes WAAAY overboard. The insider explained, "He tells LeBron that [his fiance Savannah] is f*cking other players. He talks about f*cking LeBron's mom . . . [Jason Terry] says whatever he has to to get under LeBron's skin."

And the TRASH TALK seems to work. According to LeBron's teammate, "LeBron may [even] believe some of that [stuff]. It's effecting his play."

:smh:

fuel for fire if true.....

 

[houheffna]

LeBron James is a poor man's Magic and a broke man's Jordan wrapped into one package... with great defense... when he isn't being passive.

He probably is the best player in the league (I could make a strong case for Dwight Howard) but I don't think that there's one thing about LeBron James that makes him dominate a game against a good, solid team like the Mavericks.

He isn't a great wing scorer like a Jordan, Bryant, or maybe even a Durant, Wade, or Anthony.

He isn't a great passer like Chris Paul or Deron Williams or many other PGs in the NBA.

He's a great rebounder for his position, but he's not Dennis Rodman or Kevin Willis on that either. He's a great defender but he's not Michael Cooper, Scottie Pippen, or Michael Jordan.

This is a guy who needs Wade to be the first option scorer. He once scored 29 out of 30 points against a depleted, aging Pistons team, but that wasn't against a great opponent.

Lebron is an elite defender, elite offensive player, and could be the BEST PG IN THE LEAGUE...if he played that position. His passiveness is a problem...but he sure wasn't passive against the Bulls, was he?

 

[FirstTimer]

That's called an opinion.

Every evaluation of a player is an opinion....especially when dealing with some as subjective as defensive ability.

What do you not understand about that?

then why are you doing it

Because saying LeBron isn't an elite defender is simply Special person and makes you look foolish. I'm trying to help you out.

.

Since you said LeBron is an elite defender, that sounds like an evaluation to me.

Yep. But it's not a "stupid" one.....which is the kind I told you to stop.

You have no leg to stand on here.

Just quit.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

People are wondering WHY LeBron James hasn't been playing as well as he's supposed to . . . well according to his teammate - it's because of Jason Terry's TRASH TALK!!!

According to the insider, Jason Terry's trash talk goes WAAAY overboard. The insider explained, "He tells LeBron that [his fiance Savannah] is f*cking other players. He talks about f*cking LeBron's mom . . . [Jason Terry] says whatever he has to to get under LeBron's skin."

And the TRASH TALK seems to work. According to LeBron's teammate, "LeBron may [even] believe some of that [stuff]. It's effecting his play."

:smh:

fuel for fire if true.....

lol...lebron needs to just man up and not give a shit what he says...i'm sure people did the same shit to jordan....and jordan just let his game do the talking instead of letting stuff like that get to his head....

some of that might be a little much...but in the heat of the game...you cant lose focus just because another player is taunting you

it all comes down to being mentally tough..again lebron still lacks that imo

 

[Shawon0Meter]

I'm a LeBron fan and I don't think he compares to Jordan. And even if he never does, it's nothing to look negatively at. Lebron could end up going down as a top 3 player of all time and that's INCREDIBLE! I wish other fans of the guy wouldn't take it so personally.

 

[DCguy]

Every evaluation of a player is an opinion....especially when dealing with some as subjective as defensive ability.

What do you not understand about that?

Because saying LeBron isn't an elite defender is simply Special person and makes you look foolish. I'm trying to help you out.

.

Yep. But it's not a "stupid" one.....which is the kind I told you to stop.

You have no leg to stand on here.

Just quit.

Firsttimer. Let me Tell you something. To call someone's opinion Special person shows your arrogance, and ignorance to what a debate truly is. You say I don't watch basketball, that "Special person" comment is not worth me responding too. You also called something I said "stupid". Again, if you don't agree, say your little two-cents, and move on. Stop acting like one of those annoying "know it all's" who thinks they are, as you say, "teaching" when in fact you are giving your, here's that word again...opinion.

Now here is a news flash for you. Sports is a subjective topic. That's the beauty of sports debates, to see how others interpret a game, how they assess a players game, and other topics within the realm of sports. From looking at your other posts, its clearly you don't understand any of that.

 

[Glide2keva]

Firsttimer. Let me Tell you something. To call someone's opinion retared shows your arrogance, and ignorance to what a debate truly is. You say I don't watch basketball, that "Special person" comment is not worth me responding too.

Now here is a news flash for you. Sports is a subjective topic. That's the beauty of sports debates, to see how others interpret a game, how they assess a players game, and other topics within the realm of sports. From looking at your other posts, its clearly you don't understand any of that.

No, that's not it at all. Some of these posters just think the sun shines on lebronze's ass and you can't say anything negative about his game. He's elite at everything, even his choke jobs are some of the best in NBA history.

I said once that lebron doesn't have a post game and got called Special person for that. Look at Game 5, they went to lebron in the post 8 times and he came away with 1 shot and couldn't get anything else up.

1 shot in 8 post up tries? That's pathetic. They will make every excuse for him they can think of, but the truth is, if he can't showboat and hot dog, and front run, he is basically ineffective. This is being played out in this Finals series.

He folds like an accordion under pressure and now is on the verge of losing his second finals series.

Skip Bayless said it best Friday.

He needs to say "Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there 'With a clutch gene!' because he doesn't have one!"

I bet he's considered basketball Special person too though right?