Cubs Sign Ben Zobrist

[brett05]

I am just not a proponent of the things he did. I called out his strengths and weaknesses.

To say that the organization was in shambles when he left is an understatement. There could have been competitive teams immediately had there been anything to fall back on that was coming up through the ranks, but there wasn't.

The highest ranking positional prospects in that regime were Patterson, Pie, Vitters, and B-Jax. Good Lord! I wanna puke thinking about it.

The best chance at a long run of success was the 2003 team and beyond that was decimated by pitching injuries. The 07' and 08' teams were built for a sprint, and it didn't work, and the results showed as they drastically declined every year after.

Clearly his specs did not work out at the major league level. But that's how specs work. What Theo has gotten so far is miraculous. Theo can be better than Jim, but he's not there yet. Theo is responsible for one of the worst periods in Cubs history. Jim brought the team to the playoffs multiple times with a top minor league system.

Like I said, Theo is on his way, but he's not #1

And I appreciate your comments too. :hi5:

 

[DanTown]

Theo is responsible for one of the worst periods in Cubs history. Jim brought the team to the playoffs multiple times with a top minor league system.

Let's tackle these two sentiments

1. The reason the Cubs were bad under Theo was that the previous regime (my god, run by Jim Hendry) was almost completely unable to develop talent via the draft/international signings so if the Cubs weren't heavy players in FA or trades for MLB players (which they couldn't do with the lack of home grown talent), they were going to be bad

2. The 07/08 Cubs (who didn't win a playoff game by the way) were almost exclusively FA/trades. There were not many homegrown players on those teams.

 

[brett05]

Let's tackle these two sentiments

1. The reason the Cubs were bad under Theo was that the previous regime (my god, run by Jim Hendry) was almost completely unable to develop talent via the draft/international signings so if the Cubs weren't heavy players in FA or trades for MLB players (which they couldn't do with the lack of home grown talent), they were going to be bad

2. The 07/08 Cubs (who didn't win a playoff game by the way) were almost exclusively FA/trades. There were not many homegrown players on those teams.

1. The team did not have to abandon the MLB club.

2. 2002 #1 minor league system.

 

[SilenceS]

Couple of things, Hendry did a great job for the hand he was dealt. He went through multiple owners that hamstrung the organization. Henry was big reason the Cubs had a the top farm in the early 2000's. To say he wasn't that good is foolish, its revisionist history. He made mistakes like all GM's but his trade were pretty great. Armies Ramirez and Kenny Lofton? Derek Lee? His trades were far better for the good then the bad. The Cubs were set up for success. They went to the NLCS. The '04 team was absolutely stacked and was picked to win it all that year or at least to get to the Series by a ton of experts. They bombed at the end of the season. Then, bring on the Kerry Wood and Mark Prior injuries. People do realize thats like the Cubs losing Arrieta and Lester every year, right? The Cubs rotation was suppose to be set for the next 10 years with Prior, Wood, and Zambrano. We also had Juan Cruz who was like the 2nd best prospect in the minors. We also had Corey Patterson supposed to take the next step. It never came to fruition. This could easily happen to Theo and them if they take a hit to the two at the top. Then, Zell wanted to sell and said win now at all cost. Whats funny is people think Jim Hendry back loaded these contracts. He did not. That was Crane Kenney. Crane Kenney is also the guy who signed Soriano. Henry was on a plane flying back to Chicago thinking Soriano was going to become an Angel because he wouldn't go that long on his contract. Kenny stepped in because of ownership. Henry was dealt some shitty cards. Do you know Hendry had half the FO employees Theo has? The minors were a mess because there was no money being spent that was on ownership. The Cubs ranked in the mid to late 20's in draft spending when Hendry was here. Do you think that was by his choosing? A guy who came up as a scout and basically made his bones drafting young players? No, ownership would not allow the spending. Also, Theo draft record is not great. Jason McLeod track record is great. You can see Bostons picks when McLeod left. Not many names pop out. In the end, it was time for Hendry to move on. But, for people to discredit what he did for the restrictions and assholes he worked for is foolish. He brought the Cubs the most success they had seen since the early 1900's. He should be talked about proudly and not like it was dark times.

I also like the meatballs that said if he was good why isn't he a GM somewhere else. Well, he pretty much is Brian Cashman's advisor. Read an article the other day that Cashman trust him more than anyone else in the org. Yet again, Hendry had his faults but he gave it his all. He cried when he stepped down. Do you know he was told he was being let go early in the season and he stayed on and didn't alert the press to help the Cubs get their ducks in order? The guy was a class act and a GM if the ball bounced the right way has a statue in front of Wrigley.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Great job not mentioning that he had dinner with Bradley and signed him. AFAIK, he let Mercker ( a crappy reliever) create an issue with the broadcaster, Stone, and chose the childish inmate over the broadcaster. And for all the talent you mentioned out of the MiLB system, why did Theo have to design a "Cubs' Way" philosophy that started at the bottom level so everything was consistent?

 

[czman]

I also like the meatballs that said if he was good why isn't he a GM somewhere else. Well, he pretty much is Brian Cashman's advisor. Read an article the other day that Cashman trust him more than anyone else in the org. Yet again, Hendry had his faults but he gave it his all. He cried when he stepped down. Do you know he was told he was being let go early in the season and he stayed on and didn't alert the press to help the Cubs get their ducks in order? The guy was a class act and a GM if the ball bounced the right way has a statue in front of Wrigley.

Hendry was a Gm for years and he had some good and some not so good. Yes the injuries hurt. I ran the numbers before, but under Hendry the Cubs had a top3rd payroll and bottom 3rd success. You can look at thing he did that were good, but in totality he 2/3 of teams made the playoffs more and/or won more games and less than 1/3 of the league spent more money. His production per dollar was not good.

 

[DJMoore_is_fat]

Hendry wasn't near the caliber of GM that Theo Epstein is. He made some excellent moves and he did pretty well with what he had -- but he's not Theo Epstein. Baseball is a different game today with the use of analytical thinking and using different statistics to measure players. Theo has been at the forefront of that movement, integrating it into old school scouting and team building.

Epstein is on a completely different level and has the championships to back it up.

 

[SilenceS]

Hendry was a Gm for years and he had some good and some not so good. Yes the injuries hurt. I ran the numbers before, but under Hendry the Cubs had a top3rd payroll and bottom 3rd success. You can look at thing he did that were good, but in totality he 2/3 of teams made the playoffs more and/or won more games and less than 1/3 of the league spent more money. His production per dollar was not good.

There only like 7 teams that made the playoffs 3 times in his tenure. You numbers are wrong. lol

 

[Bear Pride]

the adam warren guy can pitch. posted a 2.7 war last year in the AL east. coming to the NL and bosio getting his hands on him and we could really have a gem

This is something no one realizes, imo. Bosio and the Cubs have to feel they have something to offer as far as coaching as well. The Cubs have clearly gone after certain types of pitchers, with certain stats, feeling that they can improve them. Some think he'll pitch well in this league also.

Personally, I think they know what they are doing. Will every move be great...no. But this move could also be great in retrospect. We also have to realize that teams were only giving up so much for Castro. Cubs fans overvalued that a bit, imo, and also the move was a salary move moreso than a talent move.

 

[czman]

There only like 7 teams that made the playoffs 3 times in his tenure. You numbers are wrong. lol

i see you edited your post to correct your numbers. Anywho... I was incorrect. I mean to say of the top spending teams not counting the yankees (They were in a different ballpark altogether) The Cubs were bad. The Only teams arguably worse who spent in the top 10 every year were the Mets and I forget the other team.

ARZ: 3 playoffs
ATL: 5 playoff
Bal: Zero, I think they may have been the other team.
Boston: 6 Playoff and 2 WS
Cubs: 3 playoff
WSox: 2 playoff 1 WS, I would take that over the playoffs no WS appearances.
Cin: Zero
Cle: 2 playoffs
Col: 2 playoffs
Det: 2 playoff WS loss, I think that is better
Hou: 2 playoff WS loss, I think that is better
KC: zero, one of the cheapest teams ever during that period
Angels: 6 playoffs 1 WS
Doders: 4 playoffs
Marlins: 1 playoff 1 WS, I would take that and they didn't sped either
Mil: 2 playoff
Twns: 6 playoffs
Mets: 1 playoff they are worse and they spent just as much as the Cuns
Yankees: 8 playoff 1 WS
Oak: 3 playoffs
Phi: 5 playoffs 1 WS
Pit: zero
SD: 2 playoffs
SF: 3 playoffs 1 WS
Sea: zero
STL: 6 playoff 1 WS
Rangers: 2 playoffs 2 WS losses. I think that is better.
Tor: Zero
Was: Zero

Baltimore and the Mets spend about the same as the Cubs and were worse. Everyone else in the Cubs spending was better. Teams like the Twins, Diamondbacks, A's, Marlins, Astros, spend less and were just as good if not better. Outside of the Mes and Baltimore I don't know who was close to the Cubs in spending that he was better than.


That is bottom 3rd for the resources he was given. Also 12 teams outside the Cubs made the playoffs 3 times in that period. 8 different teams won the WS and almost all of them were in the top 10 in spending when they won. i think the only one outside the top 10 in spending that won is the Marlins. The only 3 teams that were in the top 10 pretty much every year was the Mets, Cubs, and I think the Orioles.

Yeah, not nearly as good as you are stating he is.

 

[SilenceS]

i see you edited your post to correct your numbers. Anywho... I was incorrect. I mean to say of the top spending teams not counting the yankees (They were in a different ballpark altogether) The Cubs were bad. The Only teams arguably worse who spent in the top 10 every year were the Mets and I forget the other team.

ARZ: 3 playoffs
ATL: 5 playoff
Bal: Zero, I think they may have been the other team.
Boston: 6 Playoff and 2 WS
Cubs: 3 playoff
WSox: 2 playoff 1 WS, I would take that over the playoffs no WS appearances.
Cin: Zero
Cle: 2 playoffs
Col: 2 playoffs
Det: 2 playoff WS loss, I think that is better
Hou: 2 playoff WS loss, I think that is better
KC: zero, one of the cheapest teams ever during that period
Angels: 6 playoffs 1 WS
Doders: 4 playoffs
Marlins: 1 playoff 1 WS, I would take that and they didn't sped either
Mil: 2 playoff
Twns: 6 playoffs
Mets: 1 playoff they are worse and they spent just as much as the Cuns
Yankees: 8 playoff 1 WS
Oak: 3 playoffs
Phi: 5 playoffs 1 WS
Pit: zero
SD: 2 playoffs
SF: 3 playoffs 1 WS
Sea: zero
STL: 6 playoff 1 WS
Rangers: 2 playoffs 2 WS losses. I think that is better.
Tor: Zero
Was: Zero

Baltimore and the Mets spend about the same as the Cubs and were worse. Everyone else in the Cubs spending was better. Teams like the Twins, Diamondbacks, A's, Marlins, Astros, spend less and were just as good if not better. Outside of the Mes and Baltimore I don't know who was close to the Cubs in spending that he was better than.


That is bottom 3rd for the resources he was given. Also 12 teams outside the Cubs made the playoffs 3 times in that period. 8 different teams won the WS and almost all of them were in the top 10 in spending when they won. i think the only one outside the top 10 in spending that won is the Marlins. The only 3 teams that were in the top 10 pretty much every year was the Mets, Cubs, and I think the Orioles.

Yeah, not nearly as good as you are stating he is.

So, I didn't edit over my numbers. Lol another thing, so he was still top 7 with probably the worst ownership in the game at the time. Also, resources are more than payroll. Did you not read that? No one is saying he was the best gm ever but it's comical to hate on him with his situation.


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[CSF77]

So, I didn't edit over my numbers. Lol another thing, so he was still top 7 with probably the worst ownership in the game at the time. Also, resources are more than payroll. Did you not read that? No one is saying he was the best gm ever but it's comical to hate on him with his situation.


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He seemed the yes man. Add to it he ran shit drafts. First pick was shit to sign to a lower deal. Judgement of talent. Garbage. Chose Vitters. 2005 they had something like 5 first round picks and only Hill (2nd round) and I think Wells (after thought catcher prospect) made it. Shit draft. Missed on many to the point of pathetic.

Only draft I think they blew was Almora's. Good thing they traded for Russell who went after and was the better prospect.

It is a gamble to a degree but to miss that much points to Incompandance.

On the spendings. He was mixed on F/A. Trades was his strong suit. That is what he did the best. He couldn't draft for shit but was able to pull a few good ones.

Except the Garza one. Goes back to judge of talent. Let Archer go instead of McNutt who fell out.

Oh well

 

[CSF77]

All you can say is: Tommy wanted to build through the draft and judged his talent.

He fired it.

Pretty much sums it up.

 

[SilenceS]

He seemed the yes man. Add to it he ran shit drafts. First pick was shit to sign to a lower deal. Judgement of talent. Garbage. Chose Vitters. 2005 they had something like 5 first round picks and only Hill (2nd round) and I think Wells (after thought catcher prospect) made it. Shit draft. Missed on many to the point of pathetic.

Only draft I think they blew was Almora's. Good thing they traded for Russell who went after and was the better prospect.

It is a gamble to a degree but to miss that much points to Incompandance.

On the spendings. He was mixed on F/A. Trades was his strong suit. That is what he did the best. He couldn't draft for shit but was able to pull a few good ones.

Except the Garza one. Goes back to judge of talent. Let Archer go instead of McNutt who fell out.

Oh well

I don't disagree he did not make mistakes and a lot of then. I disagree with the drafting. He didn't have the resources to over slot. Which, is what McLeod and theo lived on during the time. He was hamstinged by there and there are numerous example of them taking players for less money. He was the architect of the Cubs number 1 farm system in the early 2000's. He didn't just forget it. It was time to move on but yet again he is a bounce away of getting the Cubs to the promise land. To hate on him is foolish. Not saying you just Cubs fans


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[chibears55]

The only real problem i had with hendry was that he held onto some players too long and he had little to noone in system ready or good enough to come up and replace certain players when they got too old or bad .

Look what happened with 1B..
He held onto D.Lee while he was struggling at end of career and didn't trade him til his FA year at age 34 and got crap in return from the Braves..
Then he signs Carlos Pena at age 33 for 1 yr but split the 10 mil
Over 2 yrs and had to trade for Lahair to play 1B in Iowa because they had nobody to play there from their system. .
Then the next year Lahair has to take over 1B...

Luckily Epstein and Hoyer were able to strike gold with Rizzo when they took over..

 

[czman]

So, I didn't edit over my numbers. Lol another thing, so he was still top 7 with probably the worst ownership in the game at the time. Also, resources are more than payroll. Did you not read that? No one is saying he was the best gm ever but it's comical to hate on him with his situation.


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He is not top 7. Of the top 10 highest spending teams he is 7. 8 teams won a WS during his time, so all of those are better results. Teams like the Dodgers, Braves, and Twins all made the Playoffs more frequently. Arz and oak made it the same amount of times with a much lesser resources. At best 14.

Again of the teams that were in the top 10 spending each year only two teams were worse. I never hated on Hendry. His cost to win ratio was bottom 3rd. He is not the worst GM ever, but he is not someone I ever want to see running a team I like. It was time for him to go and I am glad the Cubs went the direction they did. To pretend like he was good is ridiculous. At best he was average compared to his peers. By most reasonable analysis he as below average. that does not mean he as horrible. Below average tends to get you fired, and rightfully so.

 

[Parade_Rain]

I don't disagree he did not make mistakes and a lot of then. I disagree with the drafting. He didn't have the resources to over slot. Which, is what McLeod and theo lived on during the time. He was hamstinged by there and there are numerous example of them taking players for less money. He was the architect of the Cubs number 1 farm system in the early 2000's. He didn't just forget it. It was time to move on but yet again he is a bounce away of getting the Cubs to the promise land. To hate on him is foolish. Not saying you just Cubs fans


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As a GM of the big club, what I think he did well was setup internationally for young prospects. I could be wrong, but that system was set up before the current regime took over.

 

[CSF77]

I don't disagree he did not make mistakes and a lot of then. I disagree with the drafting. He didn't have the resources to over slot. Which, is what McLeod and theo lived on during the time. He was hamstinged by there and there are numerous example of them taking players for less money. He was the architect of the Cubs number 1 farm system in the early 2000's. He didn't just forget it. It was time to move on but yet again he is a bounce away of getting the Cubs to the promise land. To hate on him is foolish. Not saying you just Cubs fans


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The last good GM was Dallas. He drafted Maddux, Grace, Palmero. The next GM wrecked every thing. That was with the same ownership.

We can agree that the tribune sucked.

 

[SilenceS]

As a GM of the big club, what I think he did well was setup internationally for young prospects. I could be wrong, but that system was set up before the current regime took over.

Yes, to an extent. This is why the whole he didn't care about drafting is bs. He was big in international but doesn't have the money or asserts theo has out there. Not, that I am saying anything about theo. It shows an ownership issue. True story that he had half the FO. Half. That's a lot. Also. He takes grief for Soriano which he didn't sign and fukudome. People forget fukudome chose the Cubs. He signed for less money. He raised the bar for what Cubs fans expected and he gets shit on because like I said he had a wrong bounce from being a legend. The guy is extremely respected in baseball but just not by Cubs fans.


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[JZsportsfan]

You all forget what Hendry was ordered to do. He is still the best Gm the Cubs have ever had. He had a #1 Farm System himself. Jim provided key pieces to the Cubs in guys like Castro and Baez for last year's team. Like I said, Theo is gaining, but you give Jim the same restraints that Theo has which isn't much comparatively and It would be quite some time for Theo to catch. Hendry was terrific in trades and FA. Just take another look at things with the proper ownership perspective.

Yeah he had the #1 farm system, how many of those guys actually panned out? Take a look at first round draft picks under Hendry and it would be enough to make any Cubs fan cry. His best pick Archer, he traded away for Garza. Cubs had a lot of top prospects under Hendry but one after another they failed.

The leftovers Theo took over lead to an awful few years, but if he kept the team intact they were winning 75 games instead of 65 games.