Dexter Dilemma

[BaBaBlacksheep]

So why don't good teams take them in the first? Much less top 10. Why aren't high pick guards carrying their teams on deep runs? One playoff team has one drafted in the top 15. He was riding the bench. Good teams take impact players elsewhere and fill in guards. They'll pay a proven one, but they won't use premium picks on them.

I believe our new OL coach had a 3 time probowl LG drafted 13th overall

 

[DefNextYear]

Maybe he's unlucky to have bad players all around him and can't carry a 5 man OL by himself.

Doesn't change that he individually did not rate well. Titans have invest a lot more than we have and Wright is clearly a better choice... and they were back to back picks. Titans have a top 11 picks at LT and LG, a top 3 paid (AAV) center, a 2nd round RG and a 3rd round RT. And I'm not saying the Bears are good... they suck too, but they performed better with worse coaching, less financial investment, and less draft investment.

 

[DanielCCSBears]

I believe our new OL coach had a 3 time probowl LG drafted 13th overall

Remember how consistently good the Saints offensive line was under Aaron Kromer? How many good players he developed?

Most recently it's this guy that the Bears hired that developed good players in New Orleans.

The one constant in New Orleans during all that time has been Mickey Loomis.

 

[DefNextYear]

I believe our new OL coach had a 3 time probowl LG drafted 13th overall

Good for him. Are you really going to show me the rare exception a decade ago as proof of something? How many other top 13 pick guards since then have made multiple pro bowls? 1? So how often does that tend to pay off for the team drafting? By the way, they coverted him cause it didn't work out, but they drafted him thinking he was a tackle. Through two years, he had more tackle snaps. Total breakdown: Saints draft OT Andrus Peat in first round

And I couldn't care less that someone did well once upon a time. I'm telling you that right now, those high pick guards are not impacting the big games like other positions are. Good teams aren't using their firsts on guards... even though they only have late firsts. The guards drafted in the first are also not the ones turning into the highest paid guards at the same rate as their peers at other positions. All that adds up to picking a guard at 10 is probably not a great idea. They're not predictably able to become studs and you're more likely to find a comparable player later.

 

[DanielCCSBears]

Good for him. Are you really going to show me the rare exception a decade ago as proof of something? How many other top 13 pick guards since then have made multiple pro bowls? 1? So how often does that tend to pay off for the team drafting? By the way, they coverted him cause it didn't work out, but they drafted him thinking he was a tackle. Through two years, he had more tackle snaps. Total breakdown: Saints draft OT Andrus Peat in first round

And I couldn't care less that someone did well once upon a time. I'm telling you that right now, those high pick guards are not impacting the big games like other positions are. Good teams aren't using their firsts on guards... even though they only have late firsts. The guards drafted in the first are also not the ones turning into the highest paid guards at the same rate as their peers at other positions. All that adds up to picking a guard at 10 is probably not a great idea. They're not predictably able to become studs and you're more likely to find a comparable player later.

Most consistently the best offensive guards in the NFL played offensive tackle in college.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

Good for him. Are you really going to show me the rare exception a decade ago as proof of something? How many other top 13 pick guards since then have made multiple pro bowls? 1? So how often does that tend to pay off for the team drafting? By the way, they coverted him cause it didn't work out, but they drafted him thinking he was a tackle. Through two years, he had more tackle snaps. Total breakdown: Saints draft OT Andrus Peat in first round

And I couldn't care less that someone did well once upon a time. I'm telling you that right now, those high pick guards are not impacting the big games like other positions are. Good teams aren't using their firsts on guards... even though they only have late firsts. The guards drafted in the first are also not the ones turning into the highest paid guards at the same rate as their peers at other positions. All that adds up to picking a guard at 10 is probably not a great idea. They're not predictably able to become studs and you're more likely to find a comparable player later.

Zack Martin was a first round pick. Eagles won with a tackle picked at 11 playing guard.

Regardless….. The point is most of these guys play tackle AND guard and the Bears desperately need OL. If a good OL is there just take him and worry about position later.

 

[cwcwcwcw1]

So why does everyone want to spend 20 mil a year for one?

Caveat: Currently ignoring Bates.

Because the Bears are currently slated to have Alfred EMPTY @ LG along with Bobby EMPTY @ C and Charles EMPTY @ RG. Smith is a 26 year old pro bowl RG and except for 1 game in 2022 he plays ever week. He is what you would hope Campbell might turn into. Only it happens immediately and you reasonable assume that spot is locked down for around 4 years. Oh, and to make another poster happy "It helps Caleb."

You're paying for certainty and so that you have one less major hole to fill.

As far as the draft is concerned it would appear, currently, that OG in round two with DE/DI in round 1 and 2 would given the Bears the best outcome.

Of course we still haven't even reached the combine and everything else yet so still a lot of information and such that can highly impact some of these views is still to come.

EDIT: By highly impact some of these views, I mean the caliber of some of the prospects not the question of OG @ 10. That is always going to be bad.

 

[DefNextYear]

Zack Martin was a first round pick. Eagles won with a tackle picked at 11 playing guard.

Regardless….. The point is most of these guys play tackle AND guard and the Bears desperately need OL. If a good OL is there just take him and worry about position later.

Martin wasn't top 13, but close enough (another tackle convert). Eagles aren't a great example though... I was specifically looking for guys the teams drafted themselves. My reason being that it speaks volumes if teams retain these high picks or not... and ultimately become successful with them. However, not only did Becton's original team give up on him, the Eagles won't keep him either. We have a thread of people who aren't excited to sign him here as well... not that it matters what we think. For the record, I'd give him a shot unless his price is insane. But I'm someone who thinks we need to spend more aggressively and use contract restructures to our advantage if we believe in Caleb.

 

[--CyBear--]

Umm

This GM has drafted two

Wright r1
Kirin r3 (small school and injured)

In the previous 3 years the Bears have drafted 1

Jenkins r2 (another guy with predraft injury concerns)

This gm has also drafted 2 punters in 3 drafts......building thru the draft!

Where have I defended to overall drafting of the last 2 GMs? I simply debunked your specific assertions.

You're great at moving goal posts.

If one of the top 2 T is there. I have no issue with him being taken. I think there's a good chance that happens but I'm not drafting a fringe 1st round G at 10. If they take that T, his long term projection will be T but it bolsters the current OL regardless of where he plays this year. I think the idea would be to play him at T either this year or next and get Kiran up to speed this year. Jones would be gone in 2026.

A little early to get too caught up as drafts boards may change a lot in the next month as could the roster in FA.

 

[dabears70]

Doesn't change that he individually did not rate well. Titans have invest a lot more than we have and Wright is clearly a better choice... and they were back to back picks. Titans have a top 11 picks at LT and LG, a top 3 paid (AAV) center, a 2nd round RG and a 3rd round RT. And I'm not saying the Bears are good... they suck too, but they performed better with worse coaching, less financial investment, and less draft investment.

Where guys are drafted has nothing to do with what they put in on the field. You know this.

 

[dabears70]

Zack Martin was a first round pick. Eagles won with a tackle picked at 11 playing guard.

Regardless….. The point is most of these guys play tackle AND guard and the Bears desperately need OL. If a good OL is there just take him and worry about position later.

Yeah i'm still in on taking W.Campbell or K.Banks at #10, playing them at LG with B.Jones at LT next year and then move them there if it works out that way. Some might not love taking a G in the top 10 but if he works out at G then it's definitely not a loss having a starting G.

There's really many ways they can go at #10 that i'd be good with but i'm really liking this first round for a trade down if we can find the right one.

 

[Xplosive]

Will Campbell plays too upright to be guard actually, he just has short arms so thats his projection.

 

[DefNextYear]

Where guys are drafted has nothing to do with what they put in on the field. You know this.

I mean... it has something to do with it or you'd not need a top 10 pick at guard on the team, right? Honestly, this all feels like you're arguing something I'm not. I said:

That said, I don’t care how desperate we are for a guard, if he’s not a top ~15 player on most, if not all, boards, then we shouldn’t even be thinking about it. Right now, I don’t see any true guard meeting that. And honestly, I think top 15 is a stretch and I’m being too nice. I’d want a blue chip guard or I’ll grab the best guard left in the 2nd.

So who are you arguing about? I said "true guard", meaning guys who are guards right now on draft boards. I'm not talking about tackles who you believe may become guards based on the random internet experts who have not even measured them or worked them out. Until it happens, Campbell is an OT and will stay one. He's also a lock as a top 10 big board kind of guy and the consensus top OL for now. Membou is the same story. If they come out in a couple of weeks and have 34" arms, then no one will say they're a guard again.

 

[bamainatlanta]

If they play tackle they’re good picks. Guard and they’re bad.

- CCS

No it’s if you decide to get an OG on the 1st, drop down and get extra picks. None of these OG’s are worth a top 20 or even top 25 pick. The talent level between the top OG and the 5th best OG is almost nonexistent.

 

[--CyBear--]

No it’s if you decide to get an OG on the 1st, drop down and get extra picks. None of these OG’s are worth a top 20 or even top 25 pick. The talent level between the top OG and the 5th best OG is almost nonexistent.

There's a big difference between drafting a projected G ranked 25 at 10 and drafting an appropriately rated T that may play G for a year. I could envision an OL of Jones, drafted T, new C (Bates?), Kiran and Wright with guys moving around in another year. I wish we saw more of Murray last year. He looked viable in a short stint of play before the ding.

 

[dabears70]

Will Campbell plays too upright to be guard actually, he just has short arms so thats his projection.

So Campbell can't play G in the NFL is what you're saying?

 

[dabears70]

I mean... it has something to do with it or you'd not need a top 10 pick at guard on the team, right? Honestly, this all feels like you're arguing something I'm not. I said:

That said, I don’t care how desperate we are for a guard, if he’s not a top ~15 player on most, if not all, boards, then we shouldn’t even be thinking about it. Right now, I don’t see any true guard meeting that. And honestly, I think top 15 is a stretch and I’m being too nice. I’d want a blue chip guard or I’ll grab the best guard left in the 2nd.

So who are you arguing about? I said "true guard", meaning guys who are guards right now on draft boards. I'm not talking about tackles who you believe may become guards based on the random internet experts who have not even measured them or worked them out. Until it happens, Campbell is an OT and will stay one. He's also a lock as a top 10 big board kind of guy and the consensus top OL for now. Membou is the same story. If they come out in a couple of weeks and have 34" arms, then no one will say they're a guard again.

Okay

These "draft experts" boards that you're going off of mostly have Campbell and Banks playing G in the NFL. Now i don't take much of what these guys who sit behind computers to do their scouting think although they are still very knowledgeable but you seem to still be going off of who they have in their top 15 on their boards, which is fine but i'll stick with what actual Scouts, Coaches and the front office people decide on.

 

[--CyBear--]

Okay

These "draft experts" boards that you're going off of mostly have Campbell and Banks playing G in the NFL. Now i don't take much of what these guys who sit behind computers to do their scouting think although they are still very knowledgeable but you seem to still be going off of who they have in their top 15 on their boards, which is fine but i'll stick with what actual Scouts, Coaches and the front office people decide on.

Maybe it's a good year to wait until round 2 or trade down unless you see a guy as an eventual LT. That said, you'll see the boards change significantly in a couple weeks. We're throwing darts and this is more about philosophy than players right now.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

No it’s if you decide to get an OG on the 1st, drop down and get extra picks. None of these OG’s are worth a top 20 or even top 25 pick. The talent level between the top OG and the 5th best OG is almost nonexistent.

Do you realize that several of the top OL can play both guard and tackle?

Like do they need to be guaranteed a tackle spot day one for them to be worth it in your opinion?

Or are you just saying guys like Booker aren’t worth it? (Who is guard only). He’s also top 20 on Brugler and Jeremiah’s list for what it’s worth

Because Campbell, Membou and Banks all seem perfectly fine to me.

 

[dabears70]

Maybe it's a good year to wait until round 2 or trade down unless you see a guy as an eventual LT. That said, you'll see the boards change significantly in a couple weeks. We're throwing darts and this is more about philosophy than players right now.

I'm fine with waiting until the 2nd round to grab our help on the IOL, i'm just saying that IMO the world wouldn't be ending if they drafted a G at #10. As long as we put the most attention this offseason on fixing the trenches then i don't care how they go about doing it.