did anyone see a real center... cousins

[houheffna]

Bogut is to injury prone to rely on and Chandler/Noah are similar but Noah's passing ability puts him over Chandler....Hibbert is arguable unless we are talking about who plays better vs Miami

but i can agree with you that they are on the same tier



its not so much the trash talking and tough demeanor but moreso the constant whining and the fact hes not winning anything...so hes looking like a cancer

Wait, let me get this straight...he's a cancer, because he isn't winning...in Sacramento!!! Doesn't make sense. The second best player on that team is Rudy *** and then Isaiah Thomas...why is he being singled out?

And what has Kevin Love won? He hasn't won a playoff game...oh and he's been whining too, believe that.

My point was, right now, Cousins is better than all of those players that is on that tier of centers. He is just better.

 

[Axl Rose]

Wait, let me get this straight...he's a cancer, because he isn't winning...in Sacramento!!! Doesn't make sense. The second best player on that team is Rudy *** and then Isaiah Thomas...why is he being singled out?

And what has Kevin Love won? He hasn't won a playoff game...oh and he's been whining too, believe that.

My point was, right now, Cousins is better than all of those players that is on that tier of centers. He is just better.

i dont think hes a cancer...but thats what others think because of his attitude and his numbers not translating to wins

ive seen Kevin Love get criticized aswell...ppl are saying he just puts up empty stats

 

[JosMin]

Wait, let me get this straight...he's a cancer, because he isn't winning...in Sacramento!!! Doesn't make sense. The second best player on that team is Rudy *** and then Isaiah Thomas...why is he being singled out?

And what has Kevin Love won? He hasn't won a playoff game...oh and he's been whining too, believe that.

My point was, right now, Cousins is better than all of those players that is on that tier of centers. He is just better.

i dont think hes a cancer...but thats what others think because of his attitude and his numbers not translating to wins

ive seen Kevin Love get criticized aswell...ppl are saying he just puts up empty stats

I've made several posts about some of the elite young players (Kevin Love, Cousins, Kyrie Irving, etc.) who are considered great players by media and fans alike, but people confuse being a "great player" with being a leader. They're not mutually inclusive. I've never once said DeMarcus Cousins sucks, I've raved about his offensively ability. His problem is that, for being a dominant offensive player in a league that no longer has dominant offensive big men, I find it surprising that it doesn't translate to wins. People just assume that because he's the best player on the Kings that he's automatically a "leader", but that's far from the case.

Cousins has tons of 28/15 games, but they come in 25-point blowouts. He whines during games on a regular basis, he calls out teammates after a play gets blown dead, he argues and gripes with coaches. Am I saying that he's the only young player who does this? Absolutely not. A young Michael Jordan bitched at Doug Collins almost nightly, but fans and media can overlook a questionable attitude when it's associated with winning. I think a lot of people forget just how terrible those Bulls teams were in the late 80s that Jordan willed to the playoffs every year. He's the ultimate prima donna, but he won, and in the end, that's all that matters.

Cousins has been in the league four years now and emotionally (to what I see broadcast on games, anyway), he doesn't look any different then when he was at Kentucky. Winning and leadership aren't inherent traits, players have to learn how to win games in a variety of ways. Cousins is a guy who bitches about not getting his stats, even if it comes in a team win. He needs to learn that if his stats suffer but it comes during a tough road win against a playoff contender, that supersedes his desire to put up huge numbers. Eventually, Kings fans can hope the monster stat nights are paired with wins.

There's a lot of talent on this roster -- Rudy ***, Isaiah Thomas (who's turning into the player Nate Robinson wishes he was -- guy is a heat check candidate on an almost nightly basis), Carl Landry is a solid double-double option, Derrick Williams is still young with upside, Marcus Thornton is a good complimentary scorer off the bench. And they have Ben McLemore and Ray McCallum, both guys who I think can turn into NBA players, especially McLemore, with increased PT. Saying the cupboard is bear in Sactown is ridiculous. That's what happens when you have a young roster in any sport -- they have to come together, learn how to play as a team, understand their individual roles, and winning comes with repetition. Cousins has to spearhead that. He's being paid like a superstar and he certainly puts up superstar stats. But they're empty superstar stats until he grows up.

 

[Hoodey]

Good, I'm glad you understand something. So we will agree to disagree(on a LOT of things, including that the 2011 Bulls is my idea of how far a defensive first team can be built).


Also, I think this is funny. What have the Kings done with Cousins, and what have the Bulls done with Noah? I can tell right away that cousins is better(sarcasm) due to how much better he makes his team. It's sad that you took this argument, because the smarter person would want Cousins and move Noah back to his native position.

What's the core of this argument? It's the false implication that "hey, look, the record of a team is entirely dependent on that teams best player." It's not.

The Kings, ironically, suck at the things the Bulls front office is good at and vice versa. Would Cousins win with players like Butler, Gibson, Augustine etc. around him AND put up numbers? Yes. The Kings have not given Cousins great role players however, or even pretty good ones, and there is no glue to that team.

The good news is, do you need Cousins to be that scrappy glue? No. Right now, what this team needs is a primary offensive threat. Because Rose, even at his best, was not an elite championship primary scoring threat. He was very good. Perhaps an elite #2 scoring threat. Perhaps overall a #1 star even if a lot of his value was in places other than scoring, but not a #1 offensive threat. Then, you'd already have players like Gibson, Butler, etc. to go around Cousins and Rose. When I have two offensive stars at the top and a couple of really good role players, the rest is easy. Finding players of different sizes and positions who do what Bruce Bowen, Robert Horry, Rick Fox, Derek Fisher, James Posey, Kendrick Perkins, etc., etc., ETC, ETC, ETC did...? That's the EASY part. That's what's comical and what you and the F.O. seem to not get. You think that if you go with Cousins, who is not an elite defender... all of the effort defenders on the planet are going to disappear and Cousins, because his team has won few games, is going to turn into Eddy Curry and take us right back to 2001...

Fear.. it's the primary selling point that this front office has. You know it and I know it. "Ohhh, better listen to me, or you'll be right back where you were in 2001..." Les Grobstein has admitted it on his show and not as a cynic.. because he BUYS INTO IT! He's sat there and said, "well, you look at what they were before Paxson took over and you'd hate to go back there." And he was serious! Because he thinks what a lot of Bulls fans think.

As far as getting Cousins and moving Noah back to PF... yeah, I'd be all for it. Is there a realistic scenario where we could have both of them? Because Rose, Cousins, Noah, your dad and my uncle could probably be the starting five for a championship team as long as your dad and my uncle can play good scrappy defense and hit a wide open shot.

 

[Hoodey]

ok i take this back....i forgot about Anthony Davis aka the new Kevin Garnett

although i think they are looking for a center so they can move him to PF

Yeah but, you're really talking about two types of players when you say "center" in terms of functionality...

Miami guards the post with Chris Bosh. That's why Hibbert averaged 11.9 PPG in the regular season last year and a mind blowing 22.0 PPG v. the Heat in the conference finals.

Back to the basket centers like Cousins ATTACK that weakness.

Anthony Davis is a front to the basket lankier player who would give Bosh less trouble from a weight standpoint (as in.. not push him around as easily) and who really wouldn't be a threat to push Bosh under the basket, turn around and score.

So, when you're talking "centers" for the purpose of getting better relative to our biggest obstacle, Miami... you're talking Cousins, Drummond, Hibbert.

 

[Hoodey]

The Kings would love that trade and would do it in the 2nd. Gar/Paxson would have to be run out of town on a rail for such a dumb trade, however. Mirotic is as close to a sure thing that it gets. The Charlotte pick is valuable and Noah is at least the equal of Cousins over-all who would not last long under Thibs.

Wow, this is one of the most arrogant for nothing posts I've ever read. Okay.. let's break it down...

1. If Paxson and Forman would be run out of town for that trade, it's because of how stupid most Bulls fans are and how little they get it. But, the crowd who wants to keep Noah.. they like to argue that Sacramento wouldn't even trade Cousins for Noah, the Charlotte pick and Mirotic (more on the value of those assets to the Bulls in a bit). So, which is it... are you disagreeing with the "Cousins isn't available" crowd (I realize you never said he wasn't) or.. is he available and you just don't want him. Because when he cements himself as a major star in this league, I want all the hands raised of those who didn't want him.

2. Mirotic? Give me a fucking break. Just like Toni Kukoc was the European Magic Johnson and over here he was a very good sixth man.. but still a sixth man.

Do you understand that to beat teams in the Conference Finals and Finals, this team needs a PRIMARY scoring option? Are you saying Mirotic is that option and that he's going to do for a team what Lebron can, Cousins can or Durant can? (Yes, I realize Cousins is not as good as the other two... but as an efficient offensive threat, he's up at the top of the league in terms of PPG and on what FG% you get those PPG) Is Mirotic going to come here and average 25.0 PPG on 49% FG? Because if you're saying that I want that on record, so that when he comes here and averages 17.2 PPG on 46.7% FG and we still don't have a top caliber offensive attack or even an offensive attack that cuts it in the Finals if you have a GREAT defense, I want you on record.

If Mirotic is a very good player.. as in, like Noah, a guy who could be the third best player on a title team.. IT WON'T HELP! You don't add your players up and say, "sure, Noah isn't as good as Lebron and neither is Mirotic, but if we sort of add them up, together they are better." It doesn't work that way. Teams in the NBA win with the top of their roster if they have competent GMs (as in, not the Kings front office).

When you have a primary offensive threat, you're in the championship race with even good decision making. Without one, you pretty much need the perfect storm that the 04 Pistons hit to even win one championship and become sort of a front runner for "weakest champion since Magic and Bird redefined the NBA with their presence in 1980"

The Charlotte pick? So, you're interested in beginning to be a legit contender in 2018, conditioned on Charlotte being the worst, winning the lotto, AND a big star being up there? WTF?!? We COULD trade for Cousins now.. you just said it, the Kings would love that trade. We could at least be making calls which I'm betting we aren't doing.

Noah is not the equal of Cousins overall. I know, like most Bulls fans, you think efficient scoring "doesn't count" when evaluating a player, but Cousins ability to get 25 PPG on his FG% is more valuable than anything and everything Noah brings.

If Cousins is too much for Thibs that says more about Thibs, because I can guarantee your ass that Phil Jackson would make it work and make it work VERY WELL.

 

[Hoodey]

Noah is a better complimentary player, he makes very few mistakes and has a defensive impact, is a good passer, decent free throw shooter, and proven winning center.

Cousins is stuck being more of a focal point, does not have the same energy or range on defense, though he is a physically dominating athlete, Noah gives elite effort among centers on defense.

Noah might even be the better player next to Rose, though it is close and I would prefer cousins or aldridge/love much more, for now Noah is on a steal of a contract and until he is breaking the bank I see no reason to worry about it. Boozer is the guy we rely on to score down low, and his inconsistencies have not been good enough without the explosion of Rose.

Do you realize the Bulls need a #1 scoring option? Rose, even healthy, wasn't really that. What title teams have taken a guy with Rose's weaknesses offensively (not a super efficient #1 scoring threat) and won by going with guys in that Buck Williams range next to him. And don't kid yourself.. Noah is not much better than Buck Williams was.

 

[Hoodey]

Bogut is to injury prone to rely on and Chandler/Noah are similar but Noah's passing ability puts him over Chandler....Hibbert is arguable unless we are talking about who plays better vs Miami

but i can agree with you that they are on the same tier



its not so much the trash talking and tough demeanor but moreso the constant whining and the fact hes not winning anything...so hes looking like a cancer

THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS lol. Noah is not even slightly an offensive threat v. Miami and when we lost to Miami in 2011, I wasn't thinking, "you know, this team is playing average defense and Miami is just walking to the rim." I was thinking, "This team plays very good defense, Miami is scoring like NBA superstars WILL SCORE against very good defense, and the Bulls CAN'T score." Goal... if you're reasonable and not dogmatic? Get a player that helps with the last part...

 

[Hoodey]

Wait, let me get this straight...he's a cancer, because he isn't winning...in Sacramento!!! Doesn't make sense. The second best player on that team is Rudy *** and then Isaiah Thomas...why is he being singled out?

And what has Kevin Love won? He hasn't won a playoff game...oh and he's been whining too, believe that.

My point was, right now, Cousins is better than all of those players that is on that tier of centers. He is just better.

Kevin Love is different though lol.

 

[Hoodey]

I've made several posts about some of the elite young players (Kevin Love, Cousins, Kyrie Irving, etc.) who are considered great players by media and fans alike, but people confuse being a "great player" with being a leader. They're not mutually inclusive. I've never once said DeMarcus Cousins sucks, I've raved about his offensively ability. His problem is that, for being a dominant offensive player in a league that no longer has dominant offensive big men, I find it surprising that it doesn't translate to wins. People just assume that because he's the best player on the Kings that he's automatically a "leader", but that's far from the case.

"Leader" in the locker room sense and "leading talent" are two different things. Rick Barry won a championship with the Golden State Warriors. Do you know why they LOST in 1976? Because Barry and a Phoenix Sun got into a scuffle in game 7 and none of Barry's teammates would even jump in because they hated him. He then refused to shoot for the rest of the game. Barry, comically, was apparently more concerned with how the fight made the hair piece on his head look than with what damage it did to him. He was a raving ass hole. But, you know what he was that helped GSW to a championship just a year earlier (and if the Cousins thing turned into ONE title and was a train wreck thereafter, I'd take it in a heartbeat).. Barry was DAMN GOOD.

Do you know who the locker room leader of the Bulls was in the early 90s? The guy that guys all went to? The guy who held people accountable..? Including when he held Scottie Pippen accountable by screaming at him in the Bulls locker room after Pippen sat out the end of game 6 of the 1994 ECSF while Jordan was playing baseball?

Bill Cartwright!!

Michael Jordan's teammates hated him. Read the Jordan Rules. I don't believe in Smith or everything he wrote. I happen to think Smith is an idiot, but yes... there would be times when Jordan would say, "I just told my teammates X" and they'd be watching the interview and say, "he said that?!?! Really??"

Was Shaq a leader?! LOL. Shaq used to lead the team in ribs, steaks and seafood eaten during the offseason, famously show up a complete fat **** in camp, and then use the first month of the season as his get back in shape time. But again, do you know what he was? GOOD!

The problem here is that when we get down to the subconscious, you and want two very different things....

I want a team that will win the most in the latter part of the playoffs.. you want a team you can be proud of.

Cousins has tons of 28/15 games, but they come in 25-point blowouts. He whines during games on a regular basis, he calls out teammates after a play gets blown dead, he argues and gripes with coaches. Am I saying that he's the only young player who does this? Absolutely not. A young Michael Jordan bitched at Doug Collins almost nightly, but fans and media can overlook a questionable attitude when it's associated with winning. I think a lot of people forget just how terrible those Bulls teams were in the late 80s that Jordan willed to the playoffs every year. He's the ultimate prima donna, but he won, and in the end, that's all that matters.

Next problem, you know less than you think you know. Jordan's career.. first, let me say this. DeMarcus Cousins isn't as GOOD as Jordan and I don't think he needs to live up to "being who Michael F-ing Jordan was" to be good for this team and better than JOAKIM NOAH... particularly at attacking the weaknesses of the Miami Heat, whom Noah likes to shoot 31.7% against for whole series..

Jordan's career had two parts before 1991...

a) The part where he WAS LOSING! Here are the records:

1985 Bulls 38-44
1986 Bulls 30-52 (Michael Jordan was hurt all year)
1987 Bulls 40-42

b) The part where he had SCOTTIE PIPPEN AND HORACE GRANT... Now I ask you.. are you really saying that the Kings of Cousins, Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant would be losing?

He WAS losing without Scottie Pippen. What you don't understand is that there was only like 23 teams in the league so EVERYONE made the playoffs... didn't research that huh?

Cousins has been in the league four years now and emotionally (to what I see broadcast on games, anyway), he doesn't look any different then when he was at Kentucky. Winning and leadership aren't inherent traits, players have to learn how to win games in a variety of ways. Cousins is a guy who bitches about not getting his stats, even if it comes in a team win. He needs to learn that if his stats suffer but it comes during a tough road win against a playoff contender, that supersedes his desire to put up huge numbers. Eventually, Kings fans can hope the monster stat nights are paired with wins.

This roughly translates to, "I didn't like his ass when he was at Kentucky, and I'm not about to change my mind now, stats be damned."

The Kings don't fail to win because Cousins has great stats. They fail to win because the Kings front office cannot surround Cousins with any complimentary players. And no, when you're a scoring center, Rudy *** should not be your second best player. Not if you want to win.

There's a lot of talent on this roster -- Rudy ***, Isaiah Thomas (who's turning into the player Nate Robinson wishes he was -- guy is a heat check candidate on an almost nightly basis), Carl Landry is a solid double-double option, Derrick Williams is still young with upside, Marcus Thornton is a good complimentary scorer off the bench. And they have Ben McLemore and Ray McCallum, both guys who I think can turn into NBA players, especially McLemore, with increased PT. Saying the cupboard is bear in Sactown is ridiculous. That's what happens when you have a young roster in any sport -- they have to come together, learn how to play as a team, understand their individual roles, and winning comes with repetition. Cousins has to spearhead that. He's being paid like a superstar and he certainly puts up superstar stats. But they're empty superstar stats until he grows up.

The cupboard is bare in Sacramento and it's not ridiculous. You failing to get what's going on in Sacramento is as ridiculous as me not thinking Kevin Love is NEARLY as good as many here think, but if I tried to pin Minnesota's record on Love.

Who is considered a better player? Pippen or Reggie Miller? I say Miller is by the national media, but it's probably close. Miller had better results LEADING a team as in 1994 or in Portland, Pippen never made a Finals without MJ. But it's close.

Do you know what isn't close? Who would be better with Michael Jordan (and yes, I know Miller and Jordan are both SGs, but Jordan could also play PG or SF and did so on an elite level from 88-90)..

Jordan was the top scorer in the league. You can value a lot about Scottie Pippen, but you wouldn't want a player who defended less than Pippen and scored more... like Reggie Miller.

***, Thomas.. may be talented players in a vacuum. They're about the last players I'd put with DeMarcus Cousins. Now, if you gave Cousins Paul George, who .. to me, defends very well for a player of his scoring pop and a bunch of dudes and he was still losing.. then, yes, I think you ask questions. If you think that if you took Hibbert off of the Pacers and put Cousins on that team.. they'd be LOSING, you're wrong.

 

[Bear Pride]

I've made several posts about some of the elite young players (Kevin Love, Cousins, Kyrie Irving, etc.) who are considered great players by media and fans alike, but people confuse being a "great player" with being a leader. They're not mutually inclusive. I've never once said DeMarcus Cousins sucks, I've raved about his offensively ability. His problem is that, for being a dominant offensive player in a league that no longer has dominant offensive big men, I find it surprising that it doesn't translate to wins. People just assume that because he's the best player on the Kings that he's automatically a "leader", but that's far from the case.

Cousins has tons of 28/15 games, but they come in 25-point blowouts. He whines during games on a regular basis, he calls out teammates after a play gets blown dead, he argues and gripes with coaches. Am I saying that he's the only young player who does this? Absolutely not. A young Michael Jordan bitched at Doug Collins almost nightly, but fans and media can overlook a questionable attitude when it's associated with winning. I think a lot of people forget just how terrible those Bulls teams were in the late 80s that Jordan willed to the playoffs every year. He's the ultimate prima donna, but he won, and in the end, that's all that matters.

Cousins has been in the league four years now and emotionally (to what I see broadcast on games, anyway), he doesn't look any different then when he was at Kentucky. Winning and leadership aren't inherent traits, players have to learn how to win games in a variety of ways. Cousins is a guy who bitches about not getting his stats, even if it comes in a team win. He needs to learn that if his stats suffer but it comes during a tough road win against a playoff contender, that supersedes his desire to put up huge numbers. Eventually, Kings fans can hope the monster stat nights are paired with wins.

There's a lot of talent on this roster -- Rudy ***, Isaiah Thomas (who's turning into the player Nate Robinson wishes he was -- guy is a heat check candidate on an almost nightly basis), Carl Landry is a solid double-double option, Derrick Williams is still young with upside, Marcus Thornton is a good complimentary scorer off the bench. And they have Ben McLemore and Ray McCallum, both guys who I think can turn into NBA players, especially McLemore, with increased PT. Saying the cupboard is bear in Sactown is ridiculous. That's what happens when you have a young roster in any sport -- they have to come together, learn how to play as a team, understand their individual roles, and winning comes with repetition. Cousins has to spearhead that. He's being paid like a superstar and he certainly puts up superstar stats. But they're empty superstar stats until he grows up.

This pretty much sums this shiznet up nicely, imo. Excellent post!

Meanwhile ...... yesterday, Cousins had 21/10/0 with 4 t/o's in 36 minutes, while losing to the dysfunctional Cavs 109 - 99, pulling his team to a 17-35 record on the way to the 4th worst record in the NBA.

Noah, contrarily, had 19/16/11 with 1 t/o in 41 minutes, while leading the Bulls to a victory over a good ATL team 100 - 85, to take the 4th seed in the EC.

 

[ChiSoxCity]

Wow, this is one of the most arrogant for nothing posts I've ever read. Okay.. let's break it down...

1. If Paxson and Forman would be run out of town for that trade, it's because of how stupid most Bulls fans are and how little they get it. But, the crowd who wants to keep Noah.. they like to argue that Sacramento wouldn't even trade Cousins for Noah, the Charlotte pick and Mirotic (more on the value of those assets to the Bulls in a bit). So, which is it... are you disagreeing with the "Cousins isn't available" crowd (I realize you never said he wasn't) or.. is he available and you just don't want him. Because when he cements himself as a major star in this league, I want all the hands raised of those who didn't want him.

2. Mirotic? Give me a fucking break. Just like Toni Kukoc was the European Magic Johnson and over here he was a very good sixth man.. but still a sixth man.

Do you understand that to beat teams in the Conference Finals and Finals, this team needs a PRIMARY scoring option? Are you saying Mirotic is that option and that he's going to do for a team what Lebron can, Cousins can or Durant can? (Yes, I realize Cousins is not as good as the other two... but as an efficient offensive threat, he's up at the top of the league in terms of PPG and on what FG% you get those PPG) Is Mirotic going to come here and average 25.0 PPG on 49% FG? Because if you're saying that I want that on record, so that when he comes here and averages 17.2 PPG on 46.7% FG and we still don't have a top caliber offensive attack or even an offensive attack that cuts it in the Finals if you have a GREAT defense, I want you on record.

If Mirotic is a very good player.. as in, like Noah, a guy who could be the third best player on a title team.. IT WON'T HELP! You don't add your players up and say, "sure, Noah isn't as good as Lebron and neither is Mirotic, but if we sort of add them up, together they are better." It doesn't work that way. Teams in the NBA win with the top of their roster if they have competent GMs (as in, not the Kings front office).

When you have a primary offensive threat, you're in the championship race with even good decision making. Without one, you pretty much need the perfect storm that the 04 Pistons hit to even win one championship and become sort of a front runner for "weakest champion since Magic and Bird redefined the NBA with their presence in 1980"

The Charlotte pick? So, you're interested in beginning to be a legit contender in 2018, conditioned on Charlotte being the worst, winning the lotto, AND a big star being up there? WTF?!? We COULD trade for Cousins now.. you just said it, the Kings would love that trade. We could at least be making calls which I'm betting we aren't doing.

Noah is not the equal of Cousins overall. I know, like most Bulls fans, you think efficient scoring "doesn't count" when evaluating a player, but Cousins ability to get 25 PPG on his FG% is more valuable than anything and everything Noah brings.

If Cousins is too much for Thibs that says more about Thibs, because I can guarantee your ass that Phil Jackson would make it work and make it work VERY WELL.

Dude, you're wasting your time explaining what should be obvious. This isn't a serious sports discussion forum, it's a FAN forum full of homers with their eyes wide shut.

 

[RoseMVP1]

I'm starting to wonder what it is exactly Cousins would have to do to impress people in here. His numbers prove that not only is he a dominant player, he is also a very efficient one. Why do some of you have such astronomical expectations for him? :shrug:

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

I don't think Hoodey is Pip. No way could Pip construct actual paragraphs.

 

[The Hawk]

Wow, this is one of the most arrogant for nothing posts I've ever read. Okay.. let's break it down...

1. If Paxson and Forman would be run out of town for that trade, it's because of how stupid most Bulls fans are and how little they get it.

Hilarious. Bulls fans appreciate great teamwork and defense. Noah is also a tremendous leader, something Cousins is not.

But, the crowd who wants to keep Noah.. they like to argue that Sacramento wouldn't even trade Cousins for Noah, the Charlotte pick and Mirotic (more on the value of those assets to the Bulls in a bit). So, which is it... are you disagreeing with the "Cousins isn't available" crowd (I realize you never said he wasn't) or.. is he available and you just don't want him. Because when he cements himself as a major star in this league, I want all the hands raised of those who didn't want him.

The Bulls have a center who is the team leader. Why would they want to trade for a different center? It sure isn't a need. It makes no sense let alone getting rid of a sure all-star in Mirotic and the Charlotte pick which will land him a rotation player right away. The entire notion is silly.


2. Mirotic? Give me a fucking break. Just like Toni Kukoc was the European Magic Johnson and over here he was a very good sixth man.. but still a sixth man.


Totally different player. And I was a huge Kukoc fan. Mirotic is tough, can create his own shot and plays defense. I would guess that he will slide into a 6th man role initially at both the 3 and the 4. If he was in this years draft, he'd be a top 6 or 7 pick, maybe higher.

Do you understand that to beat teams in the Conference Finals and Finals, this team needs a PRIMARY scoring option? Are you saying Mirotic is that option and that he's going to do for a team what Lebron can, Cousins can or Durant can? (Yes, I realize Cousins is not as good as the other two... but as an efficient offensive threat, he's up at the top of the league in terms of PPG and on what FG% you get those PPG)


Did you forget about the Bulls cap position? Can you say........... 2nd scoring option????? Mirotic will average maybe 10-13 ppg as a 6th man next year and move into the starting rotation the following year. Why in the world would they want a guy who is not better over-all than what they already have and is an a-hole to his team-mates?
Is Mirotic going to come here and average 25.0 PPG on 49% FG? Because if you're saying that I want that on record, so that when he comes here and averages 17.2 PPG on 46.7% FG and we still don't have a top caliber offensive attack or even an offensive attack that cuts it in the Finals if you have a GREAT defense, I want you on record.

If Mirotic is a very good player.. as in, like Noah, a guy who could be the third best player on a title team.. IT WON'T HELP! You don't add your players up and say, "sure, Noah isn't as good as Lebron and neither is Mirotic, but if we sort of add them up, together they are better." It doesn't work that way. Teams in the NBA win with the top of their roster if they have competent GMs (as in, not the Kings front office).

You really are all over the place in your arguments. I know you have a woodie for Cousins but be realistic. Mentioning other players in the same breath as Lebron is insane. There are three hands down, great players in the NBA. They are Lebron, Love, and Durant. Then there are somewhere around 10-15 others who are very good players and another 10-15 or so who are occasional all-stars. That is the truth.

When you have a primary offensive threat, you're in the championship race with even good decision making. Without one, you pretty much need the perfect storm that the 04 Pistons hit to even win one championship and become sort of a front runner for "weakest champion since Magic and Bird redefined the NBA with their presence in 1980"

Bull feathers. How did that theory work for the Knicks? How about the Nets? How about the success of the Kings success with your guy Cousins?

The Charlotte pick? So, you're interested in beginning to be a legit contender in 2018, conditioned on Charlotte being the worst, winning the lotto, AND a big star being up there? WTF?!?


Uhm. The Bulls will cash the Charlotte pick THIS YEAR. It will likely be the 12th or 13th pick in a very rich class. What if they parlay their two first round picks into the 3rd or 4th picks in the lottery?
We COULD trade for Cousins now.. you just said it, the Kings would love that trade. We could at least be making calls which I'm betting we aren't doing.

Noah is not the equal of Cousins overall. I know, like most Bulls fans, you think efficient scoring "doesn't count" when evaluating a player, but Cousins ability to get 25 PPG on his FG% is more valuable than anything and everything Noah brings.

So YOU SAY. Big deal. After all, what do Bulls fans know compared to the "dynasty" put together by the Kings? ring those cowbells. Ring dem bells.

If Cousins is too much for Thibs that says more about Thibs, because I can guarantee your ass that Phil Jackson would make it work and make it work VERY WELL.

I see. Now it takes Phil Jackson to handle Cousins? Who would be his "handler"? Rodman? Maybe the fellow is just misunderstood. How much of a man crush do you have for this guy anyway?

 

[Axl Rose]

I don't think Hoodey is Pip. No way could Pip construct actual paragraphs.

lol

also no :andruw: or 's

and no mentions of JR Smith, Ben Gordon or StandPatPax

 

[czman]

I'm starting to wonder what it is exactly Cousins would have to do to impress people in here. His numbers prove that not only is he a dominant player, he is also a very efficient one. Why do some of you have such astronomical expectations for him? :shrug:

Did you watch any of that Knicks Kings game last night? If you did......you know.

 

[Bear Pride]

Did you watch any of that Knicks Kings game last night? If you did......you know.

Uhhhhh, you mean when he left the game injured with 5 minutes to go in the 4th, and the Kings played some some great team ball, and pulled out a win, w/o Dcuz. Just saying ... :shrug:

 

[Hoodey]

Hilarious. Bulls fans appreciate great teamwork and defense. Noah is also a tremendous leader, something Cousins is not.

Great teamwork and defense are a secondary attribute of most championship teams. Yes, you must play enough defense to not be a laugher as a team in the Conference Finals and beyond, but teams that win titles, more often than not, score and score efficiently.

Additionally, you can get defense, even great defense from a lot of guys who are third talents on title teams like Rodman or even 4th or lower as talents like Bruce Bowen on the Spurs. You don't need your primary or second talent to be the guy who defines your team defensively when it's just Joakim Noah. Now, if it was Scottie Pippen?! If you were talking about THAT kind of defender who can score TOO.. then yeah, sure. Bill Russell? David Robinson? But when a guy is going to be one of your best two players, and that is what Noah would be when Rose comes back, his defense needs to be a lot more game changing than Joakim freaking Noah. I think you guys think he is Dikembe Motumbo? Oh wait.. Dikembe Motumbo:

a) Was a lot better defensively than Noah
b) Changed shots in his paint and was a threat to clean glass on any defensive possession
c) Was paired with a hall of famer (Iverson) AND a great cast of defenders
d) Was the best star out of the four stars in the 2001 Finals (O'neal, Bryant, Iverson, Motumbo) on the defensive end

AND LOST....

How is the Motumbo v. O'neal comparison any different than Noah v. Cousins on a championship level? "Oh my god, Shaq was way better as a talent than Cousins." OKAY.. Mobumbo was significantly better as a talent than Noah. Motumbo was the better defender and team player and Shaq used to show up 50 lbs. overweight and never stopped feuding internally with Bryant, a feud that went public far too often.

You don't GET IT.. you think you know, but you don't know, and as Jim Mora said.. you never will..

The Bulls have a center who is the team leader. Why would they want to trade for a different center? It sure isn't a need. It makes no sense let alone getting rid of a sure all-star in Mirotic and the Charlotte pick which will land him a rotation player right away. The entire notion is silly.

Because... gee, I don't know...

Noah shot 31.7% v. Miami in the 2011 ECF ...

Then, in 2013, despite their best player, Roy Hibbert (definitely the best player they had v. MIAMI) being the FOURTH best player in the series, Indiana took Miami to the brink because Hibbert went from averaging 11.9 PPG on 44.9% FG in the regular season to 22.0 PPG on 55% in the ECF v. MIAMI.. the team we're trying to beat.

Yes, you're right... there's no reason we'd want a center the same size as Hibbert, who is more athletic, and who currently is averaging what.. 25 PPG on 49% FG??!

Miami can't guard big, back to the basket post players... look at the trouble they had not only with Hibbert, but even with Duncan's corpse and Nowitzki, who isn't even that big... because Chris Bosh is only 225 lbs. and they HAVE to have him guard the post!

Your entire refusal to not get this basically translates to "so what, I just LIKE Noah better." And that's fine. But you, the front office and the rest of the fans who feel the way you do have had your turn for what... 11-12 years now?

And what do we have to show for it? A 31-36 playoff record under Paxson? Wow. Now I can see why YOU think I don't get it....

Totally different player. And I was a huge Kukoc fan. Mirotic is tough, can create his own shot and plays defense. I would guess that he will slide into a 6th man role initially at both the 3 and the 4. If he was in this years draft, he'd be a top 6 or 7 pick, maybe higher.

Okay, but we don't need a sixth man. We need a PRIMARY scorer! When are you going to WATCH us late in the playoffs and see that. I know you all must think I hate the Bulls. I hate this front office, but man, I loved the Bulls in the 90s. And I do watch this team pretty closely in the playoffs. I've seen the 2011 ECF games down the stretch many times. Our problem wasn't that we needed a better sixth man, it was that we needed a better PRIMARY SCORING OPTION down the stretch.

And you say Mirotic is going to create his own shot. Is he going to score 25 PPG on 49% FG? I am guaranteeing you this will not be the case. Care to say that it will be? If Mirotic comes here and flames out, will you show even a touch of humility? Or will you continue on that the pro organization dogma is the only way to see the world?

Did you forget about the Bulls cap position? Can you say........... 2nd scoring option????? Mirotic will average maybe 10-13 ppg as a 6th man next year and move into the starting rotation the following year. Why in the world would they want a guy who is not better over-all than what they already have and is an a-hole to his team-mates?

Why WOULD I say 2nd scoring option? The Bulls don't have a good enough FIRST scoring option to win a championship when the league has guys like Lebron and Durant in their prime.

Man, you would have seen the 01 Sixers about to run into a freaking buzz saw against the 01 Lakers and insisted Philly was going to win, huh?

Do you really think that that was the difference in 2011? A better SIXTH MAN?? REALLY??

The way you guys are being sold hope on guys like Mirotic and picks like a 2016 draft pick that is still 2.5 years from being selected.. do you know what it sounds like?

Cub fans... and how they were sold what they were sold for the last 100+ years.

You really are all over the place in your arguments. I know you have a woodie for Cousins but be realistic. Mentioning other players in the same breath as Lebron is insane. There are three hands down, great players in the NBA. They are Lebron, Love, and Durant. Then there are somewhere around 10-15 others who are very good players and another 10-15 or so who are occasional all-stars. That is the truth.

Once again, you live in this world where.. you're right and KC Johnson tells you you're right. Here's the power of a back to the basket center who can control the game...

In 1993, Michael Jordan was the best player in the game. Wasn't close. In Scottie Pippen, he had a guy who was probably top 25 all time.

Patrick Ewing was probably not much better than Pippen historically. You might rank Ewing in that 20-25 range all time...

Yet, in 1992 AND 1993.. Ewing.. whose second best player was who? John Starks? Charles Oakley? .. Ewing took Jordan AND Pippen to the brink of elimination. I don't get it.. the best player ever and roughly the 25th best player ever taken to the brink of elimination by a guy who nobody would rank anywhere close to the top ten ever historically and a bunch of guys who no one will remember in 20 years (Oakley, Mason, Starks, Anthony Bonner, etc., etc.)....

How?! Because Ewing was a back to the basket, efficient center who controlled the game close to the rim.

Same reason Andrew Bynum probably doesn't have the basketball skill of half of the guys at your local YMCA, but at 7'1" 275, helped LA To control the Finals the way they did in 2009 and 2010. Ironically, Bynum was hampered in 08, Perkins beat the ever loving shit out of Gasol physically, and that allowed Garnett to operate freely.

Why was Roy Hibbert the fourth best player on the court v. Miami last year, yet Indiana took Miami to the brink.

See.. you think you know basketball.. and you're very arrogant about it.. most of you Paxson/organization lovers are. But you don't realize how little you get it. And you're so confident that I'm the one who is off base because Funk, King and KC Johnson are giving you all this very narrow vision of what the NBA is.

And Kevin Love?!?!?!?!?!? A great player?! What is his team winning? You guys can't have it both ways. If Cousins is squarely at fault for all of Sac's problems, Love doesn't get a free pass for that dung fest that is Minny.

Love?!? Great? I don't even think of Tracy McGrady and Allen Iverson as GREAT. Scottie Pippen was great. David Robinson, Kobe Bryant, John Havlicek, Bill Walton (pre injuries), Clyde Drexler, Patrick Ewing...

I think the bottom end of "great" which I relate a lot to transcendent, would be Reggie Miller. I wouldn't even call Paul Pierce, Chris Webber, Penny Hardaway, etc. GREAT...

I wouldn't call Bernard King, Shawn Kemp, Jason Kidd, etc. GREAT.

When you're great, at a bare minimum, you better be able to take a cast of guys who aren't going to define a championship team in the 2 stars/10 role players format and go toe-to-toe with the champion Lakers like Scottie Pippen or Reggie Miller did and not get laughed out of the gym. But now Kevin Love is "great?" Very good... fine. But very good is a big, big, BIG place to me in NBA history both recent and distant.

Bull feathers. How did that theory work for the Knicks? How about the Nets? How about the success of the Kings success with your guy Cousins?

Those teams have made good decisions? The Bulls have made good decisions.. Gibson, Butler, etc. The problem is, they don't have the primary offensive threat for those good decisions to flourish AROUND.

 

[Axl Rose]

take it easy man