Do the Bulls really need Carmelo Anthony?

[ChiTownCliff]

Okay, it is well known that Carmelo Anthony is likely leaving Denver at some point. It could be as early as next week or at late as next summer, but the guy is leaving. The three teams on his list are the Knicks, Bulls, and Nets. I am not exactly sure what the other teams are willing to trade to land him but I am sure they can both offer nice packages as both have some nice young players. The Bulls have stated that they will not part with Noah in any deal for Melo and it is easy to see why. Of course Rose is not going anywhere and I think it is very unlikely that the Bulls will offer Boozer on December 15th simply because he is the scoring bigman that this team has needed for years. That leaves really only one offer that the Bulls can make and this is it.
Luol Deng, Taj Gibson, James Johnson, and a 1st rounder or maybe even two for Carmalo Anthony.

My question becomes: Does this make the Bulls a better team? I mean you really have to consider what the Bulls would be losing and what they would be gaining. Carmelo is a elite scorer that can hit clutch jumpers and back smaller guys down with his solid post skills. However, he is about as average a defender as they come. My real concern is his personality. He is yet another NBA player on a long list of players that have demanded to be traded. What happens if he beomes unhappy in Chicago? Will he cause major chemistry issues? If at some point he wants out he could cost us a title. It is not like the Nuggets are a bad team. They have bult around him prety well and have a good head coach. Does he simply want to be in a big city like Chicago or New York or is it about conflicts with team managers? Could he be a poison to a team? Call me drastic if you will but I am not sold on him and I think we might be giving up a lot in this trade.

Sure a starting lineup including Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, Carlos Boozer, and Joakim Noah would be lights out and could compete with the big dogs. However, who comes off the bench? Kyle Korver and ... With no more Taj Gibson that would mean Kurt Thomas or Brain Scalabrine which is a hug drop off talent-wise. We would still need a better backup point gaurd because Watson has looked quite bad. We would also have issues still at the SG. I am sure Bogans or Brewer would be fine with the other four out there, but Wouldnt it be safer and a bit wiser to address real needs first like a bcak up point guard and perhaps a better shooting guard?

The Bulls would be losing a SF that can defend well and nail 3 pointers, can slash and post up in Luol Deng. They would also be losing a young power forward that is having a breakout season thus far in Taj Gibson. We could stand to lose James Johnson, but if it cost us 2 first rounders then we are selling out or future as well. It is a gamble and the Bulls are not in the business of taking a ton of risks. I think if we could goback in time and know that LeBron was going to Miami, then we could have kept Kirk Hinrich and signed Boozer and called it a day. The loss of Hinrich is causing our biggest flaw, a lack of a playmaker besides Rose. Once we have Boozer we should have plenty of scorig with Rose, Korver, Deng, Gibson, Boozer, and even Noah. Do we need another? Do we want to trade balance for another superstar?

I know people love to say that it takes superstars to win a title, well the Bulls have a young superstar in Rose and Boozer and Noah are both stars in their own right. Plus you have a Luol Deng that can drop 40 on you and you have both star power and balance. Titles are also won with good roleplayers as well as some depth. I am not saying a deep 12 man rotation is needed, but you need a solid 8 man rotation with 2-3 stars to win it all. Gibson will be a great roleplayer when Boozer returns and Korver, Brewer, and Asik are all nice players as well.

One more factor to consider is Derrick Rose. The guy openly stated he wants to be a MVP. He wants to be the best player in the league, so he certainly wants to be the best player on his own team. Carmelo Anthony is right now a better player then Rose, so would adding him upset Rose? Let us be honest here Bulls fans. Rose wants to be an Alltime great and he never reached out to LeBron in the offseason. Had he we might have seen a different Bulls team this year. one with LeBron James on it. Was it Rose's desire to be the best that kept him from even calling LeBron once? that is something only he knows, but it is certainly something to tink about. Adding Melo could upset Rose.

Well, that is the end of my rant. My question to you is if you think the Bulls should for Melo and trade how much?

 

[WindyCity7]

im still 50/50 on it....good read tho & your nailing key facts also

 

[ChiTownCliff]

My big issue is keeping Rose happy and having a roster with a strong 8 man rotation. Once Boozer is back I feel like we have all the right pieces. We could use a better backup for Rose as Watson looks out of place and We can address the SG spot at the deadline or in the offseason. For now I think a Rose, Bogans, Deng, Boozer, Noah starting five is very balanced and i like having Taj arounf incase Boozer gets hurt again which is not out of the question looking at his history. Along with Gibson we would have Brewer, Asik, and Korver as the main players off the bench. I like it.

 

[Lefty]

Ok, with the Melo-Noah stuff I can at least understand the disagreement in making a deal, but there is no way you don't ship off Deng-Taj-Johnson-Picks for Carmelo Anthony. Deng and Melo are comparable defenders, with Melo being the far-better scoring talent. Also, not trading for Melo does nothing to upgrade the backup PG and starting SG positions, and if you want to address those positions via trade, wouldn't the team also have to sacrifice Taj Gibson or some other value/depth piece in order to do it? So in not trading for Carmelo in favor of addressing other needs, you aren't really filling any holes, just filling one at the expense of creating another, all for...what again? A backup PG or SG? That's ludicrous.

And enough with the "chemistry" crap, you only need to look as far as all of the Bulls Championship teams to see that chemistry might not be all that big of a factor. And even if it is an intangible element with real consequences, I'm sure that those effects would be mitigated by the addition of the top-10 NBA player.

 

[Scoot26]

Ok, with the Melo-Noah stuff I can at least understand the disagreement in making a deal, but there is no way you don't ship off Deng-Taj-Johnson-Picks for Carmelo Anthony. Deng and Melo are comparable defenders, with Melo being the far-better scoring talent. Also, not trading for Melo does nothing to upgrade the backup PG and starting SG positions, and if you want to address those positions via trade, wouldn't the team also have to sacrifice Taj Gibson or some other value/depth piece in order to do it? So in not trading for Carmelo in favor of addressing other needs, you aren't really filling any holes, just filling one at the expense of creating another, all for...what again? A backup PG or SG? That's ludicrous.

And enough with the "chemistry" crap, you only need to look as far as all of the Bulls Championship teams to see that chemistry might not be all that big of a factor. And even if it is an intangible element with real consequences, I'm sure that those effects would be mitigated by the addition of the top-10 NBA player.

I definitely agree you trade Deng, Gibson, picks, and whatever for Carmelo Anthony, there is no doubt about that. And we can find bench players elsewhere to fill in when need be.

Though I do think chemistry is an factor in a championship team, I dont think Melo is the type of person to derail the entire team.

 

[ChiTownCliff]

Ok, with the Melo-Noah stuff I can at least understand the disagreement in making a deal, but there is no way you don't ship off Deng-Taj-Johnson-Picks for Carmelo Anthony. Deng and Melo are comparable defenders, with Melo being the far-better scoring talent. Also, not trading for Melo does nothing to upgrade the backup PG and starting SG positions, and if you want to address those positions via trade, wouldn't the team also have to sacrifice Taj Gibson or some other value/depth piece in order to do it? So in not trading for Carmelo in favor of addressing other needs, you aren't really filling any holes, just filling one at the expense of creating another, all for...what again? A backup PG or SG? That's ludicrous.

And enough with the "chemistry" crap, you only need to look as far as all of the Bulls Championship teams to see that chemistry might not be all that big of a factor. And even if it is an intangible element with real consequences, I'm sure that those effects would be mitigated by the addition of the top-10 NBA player.

Sure Melo is better then Deng on offense, but when Boozer gets hurt again, and he will, do you really want Brian Scalabrine as a starter with Taj playing in Denver? Gibson gives us a good player off the bench that can start and produce at the PF.

And no the Bulls would not have to give up Taj for another backup PG, they could ship out Watson and Korver or Brewer. We would be able to get a better PG with that package. We could also throw in a pick if we wanted an even better player and we would still have a great starting lineup with Rose, Deng, Boozer, and Noah and still have talent coming of the bench. The bottomline is that we have 3 decent SGs in Brewer, Bogans, and Korver, but a crappy backup at the PG. We could package one of those 3 with watson and get a deal done. Have you been watching the games? Have you not seen the scoring droughts when Watson comes in and Rose sits? The guy has no court vision at all. He is a shooting guard in a point guards body.

"Chemisty Crap". Settle down my friend. Chemisrty is important. Just because the Bulls won with the Jordan/Pippen/Rodman issues does not mean that all teams can do that. If Rose does not want Melo then we would be cutting our own throats if we traded for him. Do you want Rose leaving in a couple of years as a free agent? I thought not. Melo is a great player but not really what we need. We need a SG and a backup PG. Why sell out or team for one guy that would be replacing one of our own top players. I could give a crap if he is a top 10 player or not. We have scorers and once Boozer is back we will have a guy drawing a double in the paint and another drawing a double beyond the arc. I would rather address the need at the PG spot by the deadline and then worry about the SG in the offseason. i think we can contend as we are built now. We had a close OT loss to one of the best teams in the league and then we lost to a team that could not miss a 3 pointer to have their lives in the Knicks. If we would have one those two games we would be 5-1 and there would be no talk about Carmelo being needed. Any one willing to give up two starters and 2 1st rounders fro Melo is a bit crazy. You only make a trade like that if you really need that player, but as it stands the Bulls are fine. They have a superstar in Rose and Noah and Boozers are stars in their own right. Throw in Deng and Taj and you have a great team. Do we need another guy demanding the ball? Do we really need to take that chance?

 

[ChiTownCliff]

Now if Rose is okay with this move and we only have to give up 1 pick then i say go for it, but my major issue is with what Rose wants. By next season Rose may very well be a top 10 player also and perhaps viewed as better the Carmelo. We do not need to upset the franchise player.

 

[sicko]

if we want to win champions??? HELL YES!!!

if your happy with just 4th or 5th seeds and getting as far as MAYBE the 2nd or 3rd Round in the Playoffs then yeah OK we can stay with what we have, I personally don't consider Boozer and "Superstar" nor a "Go To Guy" he is a guy that can get us points in the paint no doubt and that is something we really needed...but Boozer is not a guy that can carry the team on his back and take over a game...AND he has problems against Bigger Teams

Carmelo IMO would make us LEGIT CHAMPIONSHIP CONTENDERS! and I think the Favorite in the East if we can get him without giving up Noah, All this CRAP about his defense blah blah blah lets not forget that Paul Peirce and Ray Allen was never known for defense either, Garnett and Tom helped those guys step it up defensively and together they because a great defensive TEAM!!! seems to me (thanks to Pippen) that some Bulls fans are still looking for that Perfect Do It All type of player, you can ALWAYS FIND A DEFENDER to come off the bench and help you defensively (i.e. James Posey on that Celtics Championship Team)

what is clearly not easy to find or replace is Clutch Players and guys who can take over a game, all this stuff about "Defense" at the end of the day you STILL HAVE TO SCORE POINTS, it is schemes and things you can do to hide your weaknesses on defense, plus that is why you have guys off the bench like Bogans and Brewer, they are defenders just like the Celtics had Posey off the bench during that Championship run to DEFEND

 

[ChiTownCliff]

The replies are interesting on this site to this thread. Everyone so quick to just trade away two starters and young player in JJ and TWO 1st rounders for Melo. Some of you sound like you might include 3 1st rounders or what the hell lets make it 4. Is there a limit. We would be replecing a top 10 SF in Deng with a top 3 SF in Carmelo. The small forward position is not a position of need. We need a SG not a SF. Just because Melo is a superstar does not mean he is what the Bulls need. I have no issue trading for him if we only lose 1 1st rounder and if Rose is open to it. If not then it is a bad move. Why would we not make a move for a better SG via a trade? I understand that Melo makes us better from day one, and I know we can add players later to fill out the roster, but do we need another scorer? I think we would be better off with a SG for now and see how things go with the Boozer/Rose combo.

 

[ChiTownCliff]

Oh, and when I mentioned "on this site" I meant to comment that this thread is up on CBSsports.com and is getting people debating from both sides including Bulls fans and non-Bulls fans. I am just interested that everyone over here thinks it is a no-brainer. Here is a quate from a fellow Bulls fan over there:

The Bulls are probably NOT "better off without him" as of right now, no. But I don't want the Bulls to just be a little bit better this year for instant gratification. If they get melo and lose Deng, gibson, jj, and picks, I believe there is a net gain but the net gain is less than what people want to admit. It's not enough of a net gain to jump to real title contenders or even title favorites. Rose, Bogans, Melo, Boozer, Noah + no bench still at the end of the day loses to a team like LA or maybe even Boston. Chicago with that line would basically be the Miami Heat (whom are only a non-impressive 5-3 and still a very flawed team despite the star power). The reason teams like LA and Boston was in the finals last year was because, as you implied Chi-town cliff, had the combo of star talent plus being a COMPLETE team. You need that combo to win it all.

I want the bulls to fill there needs at back up PG and SG, and win a title in 2012 or 2013 (it's not happening this year even if you get melo).

The bottomline is we really do not need a another scorer. We are averaging well over 100 points per game and are without our 2nd best option. We simply need a balanced player at the 2 guard and we will be fine.

 

[sicko]

Now if Rose is okay with this move and we only have to give up 1 pick then i say go for it, but my major issue is with what Rose wants. By next season Rose may very well be a top 10 player also and perhaps viewed as better the Carmelo. We do not need to upset the franchise player.

but Rose is still a PG, when was the last time you seen a PG just put a team on his back and win Championships, Isiah Thomas? Magic Johnson? but they all had help and Hall Of Fame Side Kicks, as great as Magic was he had someone like Worthy who could also take over a game when Magic was either struggling or was resting, Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars who could also take over a game, Stockton had Malone (although they didn't win a championship), it is unrealistic expectations IMO to expect a PG to carry a team by himself, Chris Paul and Daron Williams as great as those two are and at times yes they can carry their teams to a win also...but they need HELP

seems to me like some people just have this FALSE Vision of Rose doing it by himself and that is just not possible because come playoffs especially with him not being a good outside shooter, if the Bulls don't have another player on the court that can strike fear in the opposing team (and that is not Boozer either! it has to be a Wing Player) then they will just focus on taking Rose away from the Bulls...then who will beat them??? Deng??? Bogans??? lol

Melo is a great Fit IMO because not only can he take over a game and carry a team on his back but he is a OUTSTANDING Shooter, so he can be the spot up shooter while Rose is doing what he does best, but then he can take his opponents off the dribble and create his own shot, people refuse to admit it but IMO Gordon was like the best Sidekick for Rose, I would have kept Gordon and Thabo (for the "defense") as the Combination at SG but hey whats done is done

 

[ChiTownCliff]

I just want Kirk Hinrich back for starters. He could fix our issue at the 2 guard and our issue of not having a good backup to Rose.

Sicko,

I agree that Melo would be a nice fit and for all the reasons you mentioned, i just want rose to be on board and I hate giving up so many picks. There is at least a debate to be had about it. Not having a backup PF would suck if Booz did get hurt again even if we had Melo.

Has anyone heard anything about what Rose thinks of Melo? It would be interesting to know how he would feel about it. I mean he clearly wants to be a MVP and he never reached out to LeBron. I understand that Rose said "If Lebron wants to play here he will play here", but that is crap and code for "I want to be the main guy on this team so LeBron can push off". Do not get me wrong, I love Derrick Rose, but by not reaching out he basically said go away. I think he may feel the same way towards Melo.

 

[Derkach77]

Melo would be a great fit if it would just take Taj, Deng, and a pick to get him. I love Taj though and we would then have no backup PF depth but w/e.

 

[sicko]

I just want Kirk Hinrich back for starters. He could fix our issue at the 2 guard and our issue of not having a good backup to Rose.

Sicko,

I agree that Melo would be a nice fit and for all the reasons you mentioned, i just want rose to be on board and I hate giving up so many picks. There is at least a debate to be had about it. Not having a backup PF would suck if Booz did get hurt again even if we had Melo.

Has anyone heard anything about what Rose thinks of Melo? It would be interesting to know how he would feel about it. I mean he clearly wants to be a MVP and he never reached out to LeBron. I understand that Rose said "If Lebron wants to play here he will play here", but that is crap and code for "I want to be the main guy on this team so LeBron can push off". Do not get me wrong, I love Derrick Rose, but by not reaching out he basically said go away. I think he may feel the same way towards Melo.

I understand your point don't get me wrong and my post are not really directed at you personally but more so about some of these articles I see that for some reason seem to always try to point out the negatives about Melo instead of just being honest and saying "I don't want to give up Noah or draft picks or Gibson"

hey I honestly don't want to give up Gibson either now, I posted before on this forum that "Maybe I am Biased but the Deng & Gibson deal is better then the Knicks deal" and that was before the season started and before Gibson started playing so well, Gibson value is going up so maybe the Nuggets will settle for a deal without Noah

I am ok with what ever choice they make to be honest, either trade for Melo or maybe they do the James Johnson to the Bobcats for Henderson deal, I just want another guy who can at least CREATE instant offense and take some pressure off reason and open things up even more for Rose, I don't care about Rose being the 2nd Scorer in he NBA, I would Rather Rose average around 20ppg and add more assist then to have to average 27 points a night just so we can win

by the way I am extremely happy the Bulls kept Noah, during the off season I was more willing to move Noah for Melo but watching him continue to improve offensively, he is the PERFECT Center for Derrick Rose, a big man that can get up and down the floor like that is also extremely hard to find

 

[Lefty]

Sure Melo is better then Deng on offense, but when Boozer gets hurt again, and he will, do you really want Brian Scalabrine as a starter with Taj playing in Denver? Gibson gives us a good player off the bench that can start and produce at the PF.

Really? That's your argument? That Boozer is going to get hurt and you'd rather have Taj Gibson than Carmelo Anthony? That's what your point boils down to, and that is absolutely ridiculous. Besides, quit acting like this team wouldn't be equally as screwed if they didn't trade for Melo and Boozer went down as they would be if they traded for him and the same happened. This team, at present without Boozer, isn't going to do anything.

And no the Bulls would not have to give up Taj for another backup PG, they could ship out Watson and Korver or Brewer.

Really? So you're saying that the Bulls would be able to sell some team on a deal that would send their overpaid and crappy PG to the Bulls in return for their better PG? What world are you living in?

We would be able to get a better PG with that package. We could also throw in a pick if we wanted an even better player and we would still have a great starting lineup with Rose, Deng, Boozer, and Noah and still have talent coming of the bench.

So wait a minute, it would be a bad idea to sacrifice the future of this team (in any capacity) to get Carmelo Anthony, but the team should totally do it for a backup PG? Wow.

The bottomline is that we have 3 decent SGs in Brewer, Bogans, and Korver, but a crappy backup at the PG.

Hold on, I thought the team needed a SG? If they already have three decent SG's, why would they need another one? By your own points this team doesn't need help at the two, and you are thus saying that the team should not trade for Carmelo Anthony and instead go after a backup PG. Holy shit.

We could package one of those 3 with watson and get a deal done.

Oh yeah, I've forgotten to ask this whole time: who are the Bulls trading for again? I mean, besides the idea of getting Carmelo motherfucking Anthony, who is available that, combined with the retained depth of not trading for Anthony, would be better than Melo?

Have you been watching the games? Have you not seen the scoring droughts when Watson comes in and Rose sits? The guy has no court vision at all. He is a shooting guard in a point guards body.

So? That's what happens when the reserves come in, that's why they're on the bench to begin the game. Given how many minutes the starting five can be reasonably expected to play, it's all about maximizing production from those spots in the rotation, not guys that play maybe 10-12 minutes a game.

"Chemisty Crap". Settle down my friend. Chemisrty is important.

Oh really? How so? And how important is it?

Just because the Bulls won with the Jordan/Pippen/Rodman issues does not mean that all teams can do that.

Actually, it does. What you mean is that all teams won't necessarily be able to do that. Which, ok, but you'd have to do an awful lot of research to show that championship-caliber teams didn't win it all because they didn't have chemistry in copious amounts, and not because they were overrated from the start, had to deal with unforeseeable injuries, were unlucky, etc.

If Rose does not want Melo then we would be cutting our own throats if we traded for him.

Yeah, and if the plane Melo gets on in his trip to Chicago has a faulty landing gear, we're probably screwed too. Just like your statement above, this notion is either inherently irrelevant or irrelevant because there is no way to know for sure if Rose would resent the acquisition of Melo, and said acquisition would adversely affect his on-court production (and not just because Melo is there to take more shots, either).

Do you want Rose leaving in a couple of years as a free agent?

Now you're just going off on irrelevant tangents just because. You have no way of knowing what impact on Rose the arrival of Melo will have, and that impact will be the sole reason Rose decides to leave the Bulls. I think people call that "talking out of one's ass".

Melo is a great player but not really what we need.

Didn't you like just say that this team needs more scoring?

We need a SG and a backup PG. Why sell out or team for one guy that would be replacing one of our own top players.

Because "top player" on this current squad (after Rose and, to a certain extent, Noah) is kind of a tallest midget contest. And when Boozer returns, that will be Rose, Boozer and Noah, all starters, all slotted above Deng. So really what you're saying is that Deng is the better player of the two starters not named Rose, Boozer and Noah, which.....ok. Oh yeah, and because the player gotten in return is a whole helluva lot better than the "top player" you speak of.

I could give a crap if he is a top 10 player or not.

1) From a technical standpoint, this statement is flawed.

2) From an intelligence standpoint, this statement is flawed.

We have scorers and once Boozer is back we will have a guy drawing a double in the paint and another drawing a double beyond the arc. I would rather address the need at the PG spot by the deadline and then worry about the SG in the offseason.

I ask again, what players that are readily available would make the equation (of your own construction) "Backup PG + SG > Carmelo Anthony" valid?

They have a superstar in Rose

Derrick Rose isn't a superstar, I'm sorry. Really good? Definitely. Superstar? Not a chance, not yet. (this says nothing of his respective potential to become superstars, which I think for Rose is rather significant)

and Noah and Boozers are stars in their own right. Throw in Deng and Taj and you have a great team.

Wait, what starting role has Taj taken? When this team is whole, he more than likely won't be anymore, and it would be erroneous to represent him as a "whole" player, because he probably won't be playing nearly as many minutes, and thus won't be as valuable.

Of course, you could just look at a core of Rose-Melo-Boozer-Noah and be content to say "yeah, that's a whole lot better", but no, you have to go and make me do all this extra work.

Do we need another guy demanding the ball? Do we really need to take that chance?

What chance is there to take? Now you're just pulling things out of thin air.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I do not want Kirk Hinrich back unless he is playing for $6M per season or under.

I'll take Brewer + Watson over Hinrich and his contract any day of the week.

And the Bulls can certainly use Carmelo Anthony. I would give up Taj and Deng for him in a heart beat. And anybody who wouldnt... :smh: at you.

I actually believe Rose is a superstar. I think you can make a very good case for him as a top 10 player in this league.

no particular order:
1-7 LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, Howard, Paul, Melo
8-23 Deron, Gasol, Rose, Roy, Nowitzki, Duncan, Stoudemire, Rondo, Pierce, Garnett, Bosh, Westbrook, Nash, Horford, Ginobili, Joe Johnson

 

[sicko]

seems like it is a fear from some writers and even fans that Melo would come and just take the team away from Rose and Rose won't develop into a Superstar and I don't think that would be the case at all, Melo is not a "Stats First Player", sure Rose scoring would go down with Melo on the team but everything else would go up especially his assist, it is already up to 9 pg so far this season which is great!

 

[pinkizdead]

I just want Kirk Hinrich back for starters. He could fix our issue at the 2 guard and our issue of not having a good backup to Rose.

Sicko,

I'd rather start a box of donuts. Seriously thought brewer's defense > hinrich korver's shooting > hinrich Deng's shooting > hinrich.

 

[Lefty]

The bottomline is we really do not need a another scorer. We are averaging well over 100 points per game and are without our 2nd best option.

These are small sample sizes, I know, but actually, when you adjust for the league scoring environment (about 100 PPG), the Bulls aren't that much better than the average, being only 2% better than the league. And, when you account for the fact that the Bulls have played an OT game (those would certainly skew the numbers a bit, don't you think?), the Bulls get even closer to the average, being only 1% better than the league when adjusted for points scored per minute.

 

[BigP50]

do the Bulls need a top 5 player in the NBA? yes.