Does hostility from management help a team succeed?

[Diddy1122]

Its obvious Van Gundy has an agenda, he is critical of the Bulls every chance he gets...

The only "agenda" he has is to be a trending topic on twitter.

 

[houheffna]

This is what I don't get. What exactly is the agenda of Van Gundy? I know he has a past relationship with Thib's, but even Thib's agent has asked him to cut out the criticism. I don't understand why he keeps taking shots at PaxGar. I think this could actually get Thib's fired faster.... unless that's the goal. :dunno:

I think this is Thibs' last season...nothing can be done about it at this point.

 

[Scoot26]

All I have to say about this is that agree with this statement from Van Gundy. All this talk of firing Thibs is absolutely ridiculous.

Playoff results matter more than regular season results.. I'm sure D'Antoni was up there too. after 5 years with Phoenix, he couldn't get it done in the playoffs. And he was awful in his next spots.

For the record on coaching stats..Van Gundy was 1 rank off...

Coaches (with 5 years)
1. Phil Jackson .704
2. Billy Cunningham .698
3. Gregg Popovich .683
4. KC Jones .674
5. Red Auerbach .662
6. Tom Thibodeau .651
7. Pat Riley .650
8. Erik Spoelstra .635
9. Scott Brooks .623
10. Les Harrison .620

So thats the regular season...

Now... Lets look at the playoffs of these guys
1. Phil Jackson .688
2. Billy Cunningham .629
3. Gregg Popovich .623
4. KC Jones .587
5. Red Auerbach .589
6. Tom Thibodeau .436
7. Pat Riley .606
8. Erik Spoelstra .636
9. Scott Brooks .534
10. Les Harrison .500

Thibodeau has the lowest winning % in the playoffs amongst these 10 coaches. Which does fit in the narrative of what a lot of people say is that he's a great regular season coach, but not so great playoff coach.

Now looking at it more than that.. Thibs has had his superstar injured for 3/4 years in the playoffs and for all we know may have another year this year of missing his key players... Meanwhile coaches like Spoelstra benefited from having the greatest player in the league along with another HOF and another All-Star (and possibly still HOF worthy).. Brooks has two Superstars as well, but he himself is on the hot seat it seems.

But the facts for Thibs in the playoffs are pretty bad... He ranks 61st among coaches with 5 years or more in the playoffs as far as winning %.

 

[Diddy1122]

Playoff results matter more than regular season results.. I'm sure D'Antoni was up there too. after 5 years with Phoenix, he couldn't get it done in the playoffs. And he was awful in his next spots.

For the record on coaching stats..Van Gundy was 1 rank off...

Coaches (with 5 years)
1. Phil Jackson .704
2. Billy Cunningham .698
3. Gregg Popovich .683
4. KC Jones .674
5. Red Auerbach .662
6. Tom Thibodeau .651
7. Pat Riley .650
8. Erik Spoelstra .635
9. Scott Brooks .623
10. Les Harrison .620

So thats the regular season...

Now... Lets look at the playoffs of these guys
1. Phil Jackson .688
2. Billy Cunningham .629
3. Gregg Popovich .623
4. KC Jones .587
5. Red Auerbach .589
6. Tom Thibodeau .436
7. Pat Riley .606
8. Erik Spoelstra .636
9. Scott Brooks .534
10. Les Harrison .500

Thibodeau has the lowest winning % in the playoffs amongst these 10 coaches. Which does fit in the narrative of what a lot of people say is that he's a great regular season coach, but not so great playoff coach.

Now looking at it more than that.. Thibs has had his superstar injured for 3/4 years in the playoffs and for all we know may have another year this year of missing his key players... Meanwhile coaches like Spoelstra benefited from having the greatest player in the league along with another HOF and another All-Star (and possibly still HOF worthy).. Brooks has two Superstars as well, but he himself is on the hot seat it seems.

But the facts for Thibs in the playoffs are pretty bad... He ranks 61st among coaches with 5 years or more in the playoffs as far as winning %.

You just rendered your whole argument invalid with that statement. The "fact" is the ONLY true idea we have of Thibs as a playoff coach was in 2011, when he led an almost healthy team into the playoffs with the youngest MVP of the league and the best record in the NBA. He took them all the way to the ECF, where injuries took their toll on what was a competitive series against the star studded Heat. Judge Thibs on that and THAT alone. Everything else is completely ruined by injury which has EVERYTHING to do with that low playoff record.

 

[Scoot26]

You just rendered your whole argument invalid with that statement. The "fact" is the ONLY true idea we have of Thibs as a playoff coach was in 2011, when he led an almost healthy team into the playoffs with the youngest MVP of the league and the best record in the NBA. He took them all the way to the ECF, where injuries took their toll on what was a competitive series against the star studded Heat. Judge Thibs on that and THAT alone. Everything else is completely ruined by injury which has EVERYTHING to do with that low playoff record.

I saw a team that lacked offense against that Heat team after Game 1 and their response was "we need to play better defense".

I also saw a team that whole playoffs that didn't look right and didn't really look the same as they demonstrated in the regular season outside of a few games. That Indiana series was scary actually with how close Games 1-4 were. It seemed more like the MVP talent trumped the first two rounds while the Heat had answers for Rose and the rest of the team folded.

And we've seen great regular seasons here... But the playoffs haven't been up to par. In 2012-13 we probably would have beaten the Nets 4-1 if we stayed healthy, but we didn't and thus took on two loses before clinching Game 7.. And everyone knows we didn't stand a chance against Miami. Its a miracle we even won Game 1 in that series.

Last year was just embarrassing though.

 

[GalePayton]

I saw a team that lacked offense against that Heat team after Game 1 and their response was "we need to play better defense".

I also saw a team that whole playoffs that didn't look right and didn't really look the same as they demonstrated in the regular season outside of a few games. That Indiana series was scary actually with how close Games 1-4 were. It seemed more like the MVP talent trumped the first two rounds while the Heat had answers for Rose and the rest of the team folded.

And we've seen great regular seasons here... But the playoffs haven't been up to par. In 2012-13 we probably would have beaten the Nets 4-1 if we stayed healthy, but we didn't and thus took on two loses before clinching Game 7.. And everyone knows we didn't stand a chance against Miami. Its a miracle we even won Game 1 in that series.

Last year was just embarrassing though.

Rose, Noah, & Boozer were all playing injured during that series.

 

[Scoot26]

Rose, Noah, & Boozer were all playing injured during that series.

So what I'm hearing is the Bulls haven't been healthy in 5 years. Sounds like they need a whole new team.

 

[clonetrooper264]

So what I'm hearing is the Bulls haven't been healthy in 5 years. Sounds like they need a whole new team.

Weren't we planning an entirely new team in a couple years anyway? :elephant:

 

[Scoot26]

Weren't we planning an entirely new team in a couple years anyway? :elephant:

I was ready to plan after Rose tore his knee last year. But yeah the seeds are already planted for new guys.. but the fact still remains that all of our key players seem to always be injured in the playoffs.

 

[houheffna]

You just rendered your whole argument invalid with that statement. The "fact" is the ONLY true idea we have of Thibs as a playoff coach was in 2011, when he led an almost healthy team into the playoffs with the youngest MVP of the league and the best record in the NBA. He took them all the way to the ECF, where injuries took their toll on what was a competitive series against the star studded Heat. Judge Thibs on that and THAT alone. Everything else is completely ruined by injury which has EVERYTHING to do with that low playoff record.

You are what your record says you are...is what a famous football coach said. Unfortunately...Thibs playoff record is what it is.

 

[GalePayton]

So what I'm hearing is the Bulls haven't been healthy in 5 years. Sounds like they need a whole new team.

The medical staff (including Dr. Cole) for this team needs to be investigated. Every single season is always ruined by multiple injuries. This goes back to the days of Luol Deng.

It is not normal.

 

[Scoot26]

The medical staff (including Dr. Cole) for this team needs to be investigated. Every single season is always ruined by multiple injuries. This goes back to the days of Luol Deng.

It is not normal.

Right, and I'm not going to blame Thibs for most of these injuries, and many of them are simply bad luck. But its his undoing by having these injuries. We have one "healthy" year and the Bulls went 9-7 in the playoffs...Barely over .500. 8-15, 7-15 without Rose.

 

[Bear Pride]

All I have to say about this is that agree with this statement from Van Gundy. All this talk of firing Thibs is absolutely ridiculous.

I don't think anyone is arguing about the 65% in the regular season. I think it's the 43% post season record that people are concerned about. :dunno:

 

[clonetrooper264]

I don't think anyone is arguing about the 65% in the regular season. I think it's the 43% post season record that people are concerned about. :dunno:

Well like Scoot said, he's had his best player out for most of those games and we've been throwing together hodge podge teams that shouldn't even have been as high seeded as they were the past few years. The two years we were 1-5 in the 1st round really kill that percentage. The other years weren't quite as bad.

 

[Diddy1122]

Right, and I'm not going to blame Thibs for most of these injuries, and many of them are simply bad luck. But its his undoing by having these injuries. We have one "healthy" year and the Bulls went 9-7 in the playoffs...Barely over .500. 8-15, 7-15 without Rose.

That "healthy" year in the playoffs saw Rose sprain his ankle.. IN GAME ONE of the playoffs. He'd injure it AGAIN in game 5 of the Hawks series. Rose wasn't healthy that entire playoffs but he was younger and hungrier back then so he gutted it out.

The team has NEVER been healthy in the playoffs under Thibs. I don't say that to knock his minute management or coaching style. It's a simple fact that has a major impact on the end results when looking at his post season record. Health is a HUGE factor in team's making a long post season run. I'd say it's the deciding factor in a lot of cases.

 

[Scoot26]

That "healthy" year in the playoffs saw Rose sprain his ankle.. IN GAME ONE of the playoffs. He'd injure it AGAIN in game 5 of the Hawks series. Rose wasn't healthy that entire playoffs but he was younger and hungrier back then so he gutted it out.

The team has NEVER been healthy in the playoffs under Thibs. I don't say that to knock his minute management or coaching style. It's a simple fact that has a major impact on the end results when looking at his post season record. Health is a HUGE factor in team's making a long post season run. I'd say it's the deciding factor in a lot of cases.

Yes, but year in and year out we're the only contender that is constantly having injuries destroy our seasons. We've never seen the true potential of this team because everyone is always injured. And frankly I'm sick of it. I don't know who or what is the blame whether its coaching staff, training staff, the players are just made of glass themselves or what...

 

[Diddy1122]

Yes, but year in and year out we're the only contender that is constantly having injuries destroy our seasons. We've never seen the true potential of this team because everyone is always injured. And frankly I'm sick of it. I don't know who or what is the blame whether its coaching staff, training staff, the players are just made of glass themselves or what...

Don't think for a second I'm not just as frustrated. But there isn't much we can do. Unfortunately it kind of is the Chicago way. It's happened to every major sports team in the city for extended periods at times. Some times when it rains it pours. And it's pouring buckets right now.

 

[Scoot26]

Don't think for a second I'm not just as frustrated. But there isn't much we can do. Unfortunately it kind of is the Chicago way. It's happened to every major sports team in the city for extended periods at times. Some times when it rains it pours. And it's pouring buckets right now.

Well I'm becoming resigned to the fact that Thibs is probably gone after this season regardless of what happens. KC Johnson is even pretty much reporting that. If they're all wrong, fine.. I'll live with it. And we'll see if Thibs can truly take a team somewhere, as we all know he'll be hired immediately elsewhere... if the Bulls don't trade him.

 

[Scoot26]

The key to the dynasty continuing or failing was supposedly Jackson, not Pippen. Pippen was an afterthought. The first domino was Phil Jackson.

I post this often, I have heard Steve Rosenbloom and Terry Boers openly agree with what was written here per their inside sources with the organization...

'Jerry Reinsdorf did not break up Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls basketball dynasty. Neither did Jerry Krause, who infamously said that "organizations (not players) win championships."'......

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=1936782

So I had never seen that article and never knew a lot of things in there. Wow.

 

[houheffna]

So I had never seen that article and never knew a lot of things in there. Wow.

I first posted that article when I was on bullspodcasters.com some 5, 6 years ago. People still deny that its true because it doesn't fit the narrative they believe.