Fact or Fiction: Jerry Reinsdorf is cheap

houheffna

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A pretty good piece is decimated by the statement at the end, just incendiary and unnecessary.
 

DASMACKDOWN

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I think the final statement is the most powerful.

"Reinsdorf is not cheap. He just hates the Bulls. "

Thats JR in a nutshell.

This isnt new news BTW. I believe Mariotti and Sam Smith have said this in the past that JR would trade all 6 of the Bulls rings for 1 World Series ring.

I remember how excited Jerry was when the White Sox won a few years back. I never remember JR being that elated when the Bulls won.
 

houheffna

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I think the last statement sullies the piece. And that is sad.

Reinsdorf has shown no evidence of hating his own product. He has put time and money into the franchise and if he hated it, he would not have approved many of the moves made. I just found that last statement to be a bit unnecessary.
 

??? ??????

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That reminds me of a comment on http://reinsdork.com/ . In which someone said "the least he could do is make the white sox a well funded team, but noooo."

It's not that Reinsdorf hates the Bulls or doesn't want them to win. It's just that he hates Ben Gordon, and cares about turning profits on the Bulls 100 times more than seeing the Bulls be a perennial championship contender.

Ben Gordon had to be near the top of Johnny Red Kerr's list of current favorite Bulls, probably at the top. Gordon had Kerr and Larivee more excited than they had ever been since Michael Jordan last put on a Bulls jersey.

Back on Johnny Red Kerr night, the last game that Johnny got to see at the United Center, Jerry Reinsdorf got booed hard at the United Center...when trying to say celebratory words for Johnny at halftime.

The Bulls looked like they were going to lose that game, getting walloped in the third quarter by the Pistons. But Bulls forge a comeback, and Gordon caps it off by hitting the game winner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX9nu8O4We8

I don't see why houheffna likes to put Reinsdorf on this great pedestal. That night is iconic of the reaction that has happened in regards to Gordon leaving. The reaction has been much more negative than one would have originally expected. There was a microcosm of that on Johnny Red Kerr night, when Gordon heard cheers and Reinsdorf heard jeers.
 

TheStig

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I don't think that JR hates the bulls as much as he views the franchise as a cash cow. I think he loves being mediocre because it justifies people caring but not having to put in the effort to become over the top.
 

Shakes

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I don't get it. This isn't a Walmart type situation where you might dislike the management but have no other options of places to shop. There are 29 other basketball teams you can support, if you disapprove of the management then switch to one and show the Bulls your dissatisfaction. So long as you go on supporting the Bulls you've giving the management a vote of confidence.

The players know it's a business, why don't the fans?
 

houheffna

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Extremely well said Shakes,

I think some of this is BG hangover, when it is over, some will see the folly behind the statements. Waiting for Reinsdorf to die, wanting to kill him, outlandish.

Again, all of this over a player EVERYBODY knew was out the door anyway. Gordon was the dummy and Reinsdorf takes the blame for what? Not being nice enough? Terrible and sad.
 

dougthonus

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Shakes wrote:
I don't get it. This isn't a Walmart type situation where you might dislike the management but have no other options of places to shop. There are 29 other basketball teams you can support, if you disapprove of the management then switch to one and show the Bulls your dissatisfaction. So long as you go on supporting the Bulls you've giving the management a vote of confidence.

The players know it's a business, why don't the fans?

It's not a business to fans. That's why they are fans.

Also, you can't easily watch any other team. I can go to Bulls games. They are all televised. I can't go to games of another team. Those games aren't televised unless I spend the $180 on NBA league pass.

That being said, the idea that you can like a team and dislike management doesn't seem to be contradictory to me.
 

dougthonus

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TheStig wrote:
I don't think that JR hates the bulls as much as he views the franchise as a cash cow. I think he loves being mediocre because it justifies people caring but not having to put in the effort to become over the top.

I actually changed the ending of the article (prior to reading this post) so that the end didn't confuse the message. It's actually very similar to what you said, I should have never typed out the original ending anyway. It was more or less meant to be said in a half sarcastic manner.

However, no, I don't think Reinsdorf actually dislikes the Bulls, I think he gets joy out of their positive achievements, however, I do think he views them as a cash cow to find the White Sox.
 

Shakes

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dougthonus wrote:
Also, you can't easily watch any other team. I can go to Bulls games. They are all televised. I can't go to games of another team. Those games aren't televised unless I spend the $180 on NBA league pass.

Us overseas fans seem to manage. I manage in the Austrlian football, staying a fan of my original team even though I live in a different city now. It's really not that hard being a fan of a team other than the city you live in. I don't buy that in the day and age of the internet you can't follow whichever team you like.

And if you can't imagine following another team, follow another sport. Or read a book. Or watch a movie, or play a video game. Damn it there's really no excuse for people pretending they're being screwed by sports team owners. You're choosing to be taken advantage of!

Anyway for all of JR alleged cheapness, what has it cost us? To me all the supposed cheap decisions have also been sound basketball decisions (eg dumping Tyson, Crawford). The crap decisions have tended to be when we've spent money (eg signing Deng, Noc to the contracts we did). To me letting BG walk is much more like the first category than the second, so I think we'll look back on it as a good decision.

Perhaps the only thing it cost us is the rumors we missed out on Gasol/KG/Kobe for financial reasons, but we really don't know if there was a deal to be had there anyway.
 

houheffna

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It's not a business to fans. That's why they are fans.

Its 2009, there is a recession, fans should realize everything is a business. Unless you are not an adult, you should realize that this is a business. That goes for all fans. If they realized it was a business, maybe they would have a more mature outlook on what has been happening over the years. And some of the bullcrap whining and crying, bitching and moaning that has been on this forum the last few days would cease.

Since it is a business, don't expect JR to spend dumb money. He has said continuously that he will go over the luxury cap to contend, don't believe that he has changed his mind. He dumps salaries quicker with the Sox than he does with the Bulls. He likes the Sox more, he is a baseball fan from childhood. He is damn near 75 years old, the NBA wasn't a big thing back then, sue him. He made a good business decision to buy the team. He owns 50% of the team and the team has paid huge dividends for him. He is not cheap, he is a capitalistic gangsta!

I do think he views them as a cash cow to find the White Sox.

That is another unfounded statement.
 

TheStig

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Shakes wrote:
I don't get it. This isn't a Walmart type situation where you might dislike the management but have no other options of places to shop. There are 29 other basketball teams you can support, if you disapprove of the management then switch to one and show the Bulls your dissatisfaction. So long as you go on supporting the Bulls you've giving the management a vote of confidence.

The players know it's a business, why don't the fans?
Some of us have been bulls fan all of our lives and don't just abandon ship. I also really had no fundamental issues or questions till 06-07, thats really when I felt we were overly concerned with money. Up until that point, I felt we tried to field the best possible team or at least build for the future. I really don't feel that way anymore and it didn't start with letting BG go or messing with before the beginning of the year with his contract. I can point to three distinct issues that made me question them.

1. Not getting a gasol deal done. The argument that the bulls put in a better offer and then Memphis only wanted financial help and didn't give us a chance to match doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't they mention they are negotiating with that they want financial gain especially when we could have given them the most financial help with a partially guaranteed s&t with Pj brown. It makes no sense espically with Heinsley's calling out the bulls, why would you call out a trade partner willing to give you the most talent. It seems likely the bulls started gawking at the lt implications after fawning over gasol.

2.Not wanting Stat. I don't care if Amare is a cripple he is better than all of our bigs, you have no excuse for bitching and moaning about paying an elite big man when we have been pursuing one for over 5 yrs. Suck it up and pay him. We have no bigs, they should be priority #1, I don't care if they cost 30 million per yr.

3.The BG situation. I am not going to go into the current details but after a long drawn out negotiations last year, to pull the offer after sabotaging all of his s&t possibilities and somehow getting him to sign is a terrible mistake.

Also how is your Walmart example valid? If I don't want to shop at Walmart, I can find a costco, target, kmart, sams club or meijer all within reasonable driving distance. There are no other bball teams within reasonable driving distance.
 

TheStig

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houheffna wrote:
It's not a business to fans. That's why they are fans.

Its 2009, there is a recession, fans should realize everything is a business. Unless you are not an adult, you should realize that this is a business. That goes for all fans. If they realized it was a business, maybe they would have a more mature outlook on what has been happening over the years. And some of the bullcrap whining and crying, bitching and moaning that has been on this forum the last few days would cease.

Since it is a business, don't expect JR to spend dumb money. He has said continuously that he will go over the luxury cap to contend, don't believe that he has changed his mind. He dumps salaries quicker with the Sox than he does with the Bulls. He likes the Sox more, he is a baseball fan from childhood. He is damn near 75 years old, the NBA wasn't a big thing back then, sue him. He made a good business decision to buy the team. He owns 50% of the team and the team has paid huge dividends for him. He is not cheap, he is a capitalistic gangsta!

I do think he views them as a cash cow to find the White Sox.

That is another unfounded statement.

The Lakers and us have very similar market share and cost structure and they manage to continually compete and still make a very large profit but still spend the LT and get the best staff. They just sacrifice a part of their profit and come in second behind us. No one is demanding that JR make the bulls a charity case, he can pay BG, pay the lt this year and still have a higher income than 29 of 30 teams. Did you even look at the numbers in the article? Last year the recession started and he still had well over his average league leading profit. JR will not go through great strife to bring back BG, he just didn't want to and if he was really hard up for money, he wouldn't be trying to buy a hockey team.
 

??? ??????

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houheffna wrote:
It's not a business to fans. That's why they are fans.

Its 2009, there is a recession, fans should realize everything is a business. Unless you are not an adult, you should realize that this is a business. That goes for all fans. If they realized it was a business, maybe they would have a more mature outlook on what has been happening over the years. And some of the bullcrap whining and crying, bitching and moaning that has been on this forum the last few days would cease.

Since it is a business, don't expect JR to spend dumb money. He has said continuously that he will go over the luxury cap to contend, don't believe that he has changed his mind. He dumps salaries quicker with the Sox than he does with the Bulls. He likes the Sox more, he is a baseball fan from childhood. He is damn near 75 years old, the NBA wasn't a big thing back then, sue him. He made a good business decision to buy the team. He owns 50% of the team and the team has paid huge dividends for him. He is not cheap, he is a capitalistic gangsta!

I do think he views them as a cash cow to find the White Sox.

That is another unfounded statement.

Why should fans care about how great Jerry is at maximizing profits? Businessmen looking at how to maximize profits in a sport franchise might admire Jerry Reinsdorf, but Bulls fans shouldn't.

As far as I know, 99.99999% of Bulls fans are concerned with the enjoyment that comes from watching the basketball team on the court. You're apparently in the other group, that are concerned with how much money the owner is trying to make. Reinsdorf's actions are against what puts the best basketball product on the court, and rightfully, fans are upset.

Yes, we're in a recession. But signing Gordon to the contract the Pistons signed him to wouldn't put the Bulls in the red. It wouldn't put the Bulls anywhere close to being in the red. Bulls fans were never asking Jerry to lose money, they were asking him to retain the Bulls' best player, in a move that would help the Bulls build toward a championship.

What's worse, is that Reinsdorf had his spokesperson go out and lie to fans that it was a top priority to re-sign Gordon.

When we are kids and dreaming of being rich, I'm sure most of our fantasies were not to be an old miser like Mr. Burns. I think most people wanted to be the cool rich guy, who isn't all about profits, but for bettering society, or if they were to buy a sports team, to try to make that team win a championship every year.

Actually, Mr. Burns isn't as bad as Jerry Reinsdorf. Mr. Burns spent big to put together the best softball team he possibly could.
 

TheStig

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dougthonus wrote:
TheStig wrote:
I don't think that JR hates the bulls as much as he views the franchise as a cash cow. I think he loves being mediocre because it justifies people caring but not having to put in the effort to become over the top.

I actually changed the ending of the article (prior to reading this post) so that the end didn't confuse the message. It's actually very similar to what you said, I should have never typed out the original ending anyway. It was more or less meant to be said in a half sarcastic manner.

However, no, I don't think Reinsdorf actually dislikes the Bulls, I think he gets joy out of their positive achievements, however, I do think he views them as a cash cow to find the White Sox.
Sure you didn't ;) I basically wrote a much more angry version of your article in my JR is a greedy bastard thread with less numbers and more guesstamates. I was a bit upset about BG.
 

engies

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houheffna wrote:
A pretty good piece is decimated by the statement at the end, just incendiary and unnecessary.

R u related to JR?....better yet....is that you JR?
 

Shakes

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TheStig wrote:
Also how is your Walmart example valid? If I don't want to shop at Walmart, I can find a costco, target, kmart, sams club or meijer all within reasonable driving distance. There are no other bball teams within reasonable driving distance.

The Walmart example is how some people are basically forced to shop at Walmart because in small towns they might be the only retailer. Sports are different, with the internet I can follow a team like the Bulls even though I have never set foot on American soil.

Anyway my point is you can be a fan but not pay for product you don't like. Surely I'm not the only guy in the world who can be a fan of a band but no longer buy their new albums because they're no good? You can remain a fan without supporting crap.

Same with the Bulls, if you think management is cheating you, why on earth are you putting up with it? Stop following them, there's a billion other things you could be doing with your life.
 

houheffna

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Why should fans care about how great Jerry is at maximizing profits? Businessmen looking at how to maximize profits in a sport franchise might admire Jerry Reinsdorf, but Bulls fans shouldn't.

As far as I know, 99.99999% of Bulls fans are concerned with the enjoyment that comes from watching the basketball team on the court. You're apparently in the other group, that are concerned with how much money the owner is trying to make. Reinsdorf's actions are against what puts the best basketball product on the court, and rightfully, fans are upset.

Yes, we're in a recession. But signing Gordon to the contract the Pistons signed him to wouldn't put the Bulls in the red. It wouldn't put the Bulls anywhere close to being in the red. Bulls fans were never asking Jerry to lose money, they were asking him to retain the Bulls' best player, in a move that would help the Bulls build toward a championship.

What's worse, is that Reinsdorf had his spokesperson go out and lie to fans that it was a top priority to re-sign Gordon.

When we are kids and dreaming of being rich, I'm sure most of our fantasies were not to be an old miser like Mr. Burns. I think most people wanted to be the cool rich guy, who isn't all about profits, but for bettering society, or if they were to buy a sports team, to try to make that team win a championship every year.

Actually, Mr. Burns isn't as bad as Jerry Reinsdorf. Mr. Burns spent big to put together the best softball team he possibly could.

Bulls fans have gone on with their lives, you should either move on or go to Detroit.

Do you not realize that it is about dollars and cents, you know what a salary cap is? you know what luxury tax is? Do you know the penalty for luxury tax? If not, find out, and quit bitchin about a mediocre player.

We were talking in general about Reinsdorf's business practices. Not just about Gordon. Gordon is not that important in the big picture.

They went after Amare at the trade deadline, Steve Kerr pulled back at the last minute, after recent health problems they don't want him anymore. There is something going on there that you don't know about and neither do I. The fact is Amare will never be what he was, and he does not play defense. They don't want to give him a max deal. So they are checking other options.

This is really about BG. And that is what makes this all so sad. Because at the same time your anger started, they were offering their players very nice deals. Now some say they offered BG below market money, that was the dumbest thing I have heard in a while. KC Johnson talked about it yesterday. BG lost money. He could have signed the deal, made 50mil, he would have been well into that contract by now, and sign another top contract at the prime of his career. Don't blame Reinsdorf for that. Just get over it for crying out loud. Someone else offered him more money than he is worth and now he is gone, what Shakes is saying in a more classy way is if you are going to cry over BG and accuse Reinsdorf of every misdeed under the sun, go follow the Bucks. And don't act as if it is a geographical issue because its not, just because you live in Chicago doesn't mean you have to be a Bulls fan. I like the Rockets and I have never been to Houston. I have been an Olajuwon fan for years going back to the 1980's.

Not because you don't have a right to complain...you are complaining about stupid shit. He can pay BG, he offered to pay BG, TWICE! BG didn't want it, so BG can go suck eggs. Damn! what is so hard about that. He has been written out of the storyline, if you dont like it, change the channel. Sox fans at one time had major complaints about Reinsdorf, I know, I had complaints too, and I am a Sox fan. The famous fire sale in the 1990's was horrendous. But I got over it. I had a choice, get over it, or sit and cry because they let some players go while only 3 games out of first place. I am a Sox fan to this day because I got over it.


I didn't accuse Reinsdorf of cheapness, and hope he die so someone else could run the team. Would I have said that if he let Frank Thomas walk? Maybe, doubt it but maybe, not because Frank was the best player, but because Frank was a great player. I was upset when they let Ellis Burks go, he was a decent player with loads of potential, negotiations fell apart, he went to Colorado. I was upset, hell, I know Burks' uncle for crying out loud! I got over it, Burks was a 2x allstar but he was not that good. Why would I boycott over him? They replaced him with an older player who was not as good named Darrin Jackson, and they did fine. Although Reinsdorf loves the Sox so much that he spearheaded the lockout that year when his team was the best in the AL and could have won their first World Series, instead of cancelling it for the first time in MLB history. I understand that he was taking care of business. Life goes on, this is not unprecedented, so quit whining and complaining and slobbering over a decent at best player leaving town, especially when you have two capable players that can replace him.
 

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