Fact or Fiction: Jerry Reinsdorf is cheap

[engies]

houheffna wrote:

Why should fans care about how great Jerry is at maximizing profits? Businessmen looking at how to maximize profits in a sport franchise might admire Jerry Reinsdorf, but Bulls fans shouldn't.

As far as I know, 99.99999% of Bulls fans are concerned with the enjoyment that comes from watching the basketball team on the court. You're apparently in the other group, that are concerned with how much money the owner is trying to make. Reinsdorf's actions are against what puts the best basketball product on the court, and rightfully, fans are upset.

Yes, we're in a recession. But signing Gordon to the contract the Pistons signed him to wouldn't put the Bulls in the red. It wouldn't put the Bulls anywhere close to being in the red. Bulls fans were never asking Jerry to lose money, they were asking him to retain the Bulls' best player, in a move that would help the Bulls build toward a championship.

What's worse, is that Reinsdorf had his spokesperson go out and lie to fans that it was a top priority to re-sign Gordon.

When we are kids and dreaming of being rich, I'm sure most of our fantasies were not to be an old miser like Mr. Burns. I think most people wanted to be the cool rich guy, who isn't all about profits, but for bettering society, or if they were to buy a sports team, to try to make that team win a championship every year.

Actually, Mr. Burns isn't as bad as Jerry Reinsdorf. Mr. Burns spent big to put together the best softball team he possibly could.

Bulls fans have gone on with their lives, you should either move on or go to Detroit.

Do you not realize that it is about dollars and cents, you know what a salary cap is? you know what luxury tax is? Do you know the penalty for luxury tax? If not, find out, and quit bitchin about a mediocre player.

We were talking in general about Reinsdorf's business practices. Not just about Gordon. Gordon is not that important in the big picture.

They went after Amare at the trade deadline, Steve Kerr pulled back at the last minute, after recent health problems they don't want him anymore. There is something going on there that you don't know about and neither do I. The fact is Amare will never be what he was, and he does not play defense. They don't want to give him a max deal. So they are checking other options.

This is really about BG. And that is what makes this all so sad. Because at the same time your anger started, they were offering their players very nice deals. Now some say they offered BG below market money, that was the dumbest thing I have heard in a while. KC Johnson talked about it yesterday. BG lost money. He could have signed the deal, made 50mil, he would have been well into that contract by now, and sign another top contract at the prime of his career. Don't blame Reinsdorf for that. Just get over it for crying out loud. Someone else offered him more money than he is worth and now he is gone, what Shakes is saying in a more classy way is if you are going to cry over BG and accuse Reinsdorf of every misdeed under the sun, go follow the Bucks. And don't act as if it is a geographical issue because its not, just because you live in Chicago doesn't mean you have to be a Bulls fan. I like the Rockets and I have never been to Houston. I have been an Olajuwon fan for years going back to the 1980's.

Not because you don't have a right to complain...you are complaining about stupid shit. He can pay BG, he offered to pay BG, TWICE! BG didn't want it, so BG can go suck eggs. Damn! what is so hard about that. He has been written out of the storyline, if you dont like it, change the channel. Sox fans at one time had major complaints about Reinsdorf, I know, I had complaints too, and I am a Sox fan. The famous fire sale in the 1990's was horrendous. But I got over it. I had a choice, get over it, or sit and cry because they let some players go while only 3 games out of first place. I am a Sox fan to this day because I got over it.


I didn't accuse Reinsdorf of cheapness, and hope he die so someone else could run the team. Would I have said that if he let Frank Thomas walk? Maybe, doubt it but maybe, not because Frank was the best player, but because Frank was a great player. I was upset when they let Ellis Burks go, he was a decent player with loads of potential, negotiations fell apart, he went to Colorado. I was upset, hell, I know Burks' uncle for crying out loud! I got over it, Burks was a 2x allstar but he was not that good. Why would I boycott over him? They replaced him with an older player who was not as good named Darrin Jackson, and they did fine. Although Reinsdorf loves the Sox so much that he spearheaded the lockout that year when his team was the best in the AL and could have won their first World Series, instead of cancelling it for the first time in MLB history. I understand that he was taking care of business. Life goes on, this is not unprecedented, so quit whining and complaining and slobbering over a decent at best player leaving town, especially when you have two capable players that can replace him.

A mediocre player who happened to lead the team in scoring for 4 out of his first 5 seasons, I may be wrong but was 2nd in his rookie year in our scoring.

A mediocre player who was barely injured, who trained the hardest out of all our players, who was among the best shooters in the league, who averaged a low turnover rate considering the amount of ball time he had, who lead us to 4 playoff runs out of 5 seasons, who won us many games just off the back of his clutch performances, could go on & on & on about the traits of this so called "mediocre player"

A lot of these things are beyond debatable, they are as fact as the sun being insanely hot. I'm just in awe that someone can say the things that you're saying.

To me your not a real bulls fan because if you were you would've at least given Gordon a little bit of credit. You give him ZERO credit!

I dont think anyones debating that JR should be making a profit. But he should of course be giving back to the people if he wants to continue to profit. I know if I was a Bulls fan I'd have serious concerns about spending money on seats for a mediocre product. It would be different if JR was actually trying to build a winning team. Hell I wouldn't be so judgemental if JR hadnt pulled the 54/6 deal off the table, then later on (be it this off season, 2010 or whenever) traded BG for someone else he felt more qualified (within reason)

Instead he let BG walk due to pigheadedness & ignorance, & now we let a player, a so called mediocre player who had 17 teams interested, one who ended up signing him at 58/5, one who we drafted at #3 to walk away for NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

How the hell are we suposed to bring in a free agent now. Yes we have Rose, but do you think Bosh or whoever is gonna look at this team & go "ok if i join it, we have a chance to win a title". Maybe he would've if we had BG or someone else we traded BG for. Now I bet Bosh & others look at chicago as a team with tight ass owner who will not sacrifice ANY profit for winning! If I was Bosh & wanted to win I would have no faith in signing with a team with such an owner.

Just because people point this out doesnt make them any less Bulls fans. In fact, it makes them bigger fans than you, because they're concerned with the team winning, rather than the ownership profiting.

 

[houheffna]

A mediocre player who happened to lead the team in scoring for 4 out of his first 5 seasons, I may be wrong but was 2nd in his rookie year in our scoring.

A mediocre player who was barely injured, who trained the hardest out of all our players, who was among the best shooters in the league, who averaged a low turnover rate considering the amount of ball time he had, who lead us to 4 playoff runs out of 5 seasons, who won us many games just off the back of his clutch performances, could go on & on & on about the traits of this so called "mediocre player"

A lot of these things are beyond debatable, they are as fact as the sun being insanely hot. I'm just in awe that someone can say the things that you're saying.

To me your not a real bulls fan because if you were you would've at least given Gordon a little bit of credit. You give him ZERO credit!

I dont think anyones debating that JR should be making a profit. But he should of course be giving back to the people if he wants to continue to profit. I know if I was a Bulls fan I'd have serious concerns about spending money on seats for a mediocre product. It would be different if JR was actually trying to build a winning team. Hell I wouldn't be so judgemental if JR hadnt pulled the 54/6 deal off the table, then later on (be it this off season, 2010 or whenever) traded BG for someone else he felt more qualified (within reason)

Instead he let BG walk due to pigheadedness & ignorance, & now we let a player, a so called mediocre player who had 17 teams interested, one who ended up signing him at 58/5, one who we drafted at #3 to walk away for NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

How the hell are we suposed to bring in a free agent now. Yes we have Rose, but do you think Bosh or whoever is gonna look at this team & go "ok if i join it, we have a chance to win a title". Maybe he would've if we had BG or someone else we traded BG for. Now I bet Bosh & others look at chicago as a team with tight ass owner who will not sacrifice ANY profit for winning! If I was Bosh & wanted to win I would have no faith in signing with a team with such an owner.

Just because people point this out doesnt make them any less Bulls fans. In fact, it makes them bigger fans than you, because they're concerned with the team winning, rather than the ownership profiting.

Do you think Bosh gives a damn about whether BG is here or not? The whole team is mediocre, there are no excellent players on this team. It amazes me that you all think we have extraordinary players. And please let the leading the team in scoring thing be. The only smart thing you have said is that we gave up BG for nothing, I agree with that. But the Bulls owe BG nothing, nothing at all. And if the Bulls had BG, Bosh shouldn't be impressed, because you don't win championships if Ben is the best player on your team. BG is a specialist, a hybrid Vinny Johnson, which is why you cannot compare him to the great shooting guards or even the very good shooting guards. And the good shooting guards are better because they can excel in multiple areas when it comes to basketball


He is good enough to keep both teams in a game. To that I said let him come off the bench, he should come off the bench. Let him back up Salmons. I have said that sense I have been on this forum. I never said let his ass go! But now that he is gone, later.

 

[dougthonus]

Shakes wrote:

Us overseas fans seem to manage. I manage in the Austrlian football, staying a fan of my original team even though I live in a different city now. It's really not that hard being a fan of a team other than the city you live in. I don't buy that in the day and age of the internet you can't follow whichever team you like.

You don't have to buy it. To you, the barriers of watching one team vs another team are the same. To me, they are radically different. I can't go to the Lakers game and sit on the floor. That may not matter to you, but it does to me. I watch all the games of another team without significant financial involvement.

Also, the people around me will not follow that team which removes all of the social enjoyment aspect out of discussing it with friends.

There are all ways you can kinda sorta get around these things, but you are depriving yourself of many of the best parts about being a fan. I've been to every postJordan Bulls playoff game save one. I couldn't do that with another team.

If you don't get why those types of things are important to me, then I can't explain it to you further. If I moved to L.A. then I would become a Lakers fan. I'd still be a Bulls fan due to the long time nature of being a Bulls fan, but I'd also become a fan of the local team as well.

The proximity and social benefits are many and can't be replaced by following another team.

Anyway for all of JR alleged cheapness, what has it cost us? To me all the supposed cheap decisions have also been sound basketball decisions (eg dumping Tyson, Crawford). The crap decisions have tended to be when we've spent money (eg signing Deng, Noc to the contracts we did). To me letting BG walk is much more like the first category than the second, so I think we'll look back on it as a good decision.

Perhaps the only thing it cost us is the rumors we missed out on Gasol/KG/Kobe for financial reasons, but we really don't know if there was a deal to be had there anyway.

We definitely lost Gasol for financial reasons. The Bulls said they didn't have an expiring contract, but they did. They had PJ Brown waiting to do a S&T. He even sat out the season to that point just in case the Bulls worked a S&T to use him as salary filler. They didn't want to take on the extra salary though.

We weren't going to get KG/Kobe, because Al Jefferson was a more desirable piece than what we had to offer and the Lakers never really considered trading Kobe IMO.

 

[dougthonus]

I would like to point out something as well.

I'm not suggesting that Reinsdorf shouldn't make a profit or can't control the team how he likes.

He can.

That's separate from the point that I'm allowed to call him cheap and point out that this is objectively true. Relative to his peers he spends less of his revenues on player expenses than any team in the league and captures a greater profit than any team in the league because of it.

If the Lakers spent like the Bulls, they likely wouldn't have won four titles in the past decade.

 

[houheffna]

If the Lakers spent like the Bulls, they likely wouldn't have won four titles in the past decade.

How do you figure? Who would they have gotten that they didn't try to get. They went after the best players in the game either through free agency or trade. From 2000, that was there plan, to get better by spending money. You already told me that Paxson did an adequate job of drafting, so that can't be it. I don't understand that statement. Pau Gasol would have been the only player we had, and unless we could unload him for Garnett, he would have been the only player, and the Bulls don't win championships with the teams they had and Gasol.

They tried every way legal to get Kobe, free agency, trade, no dice. I am glad this team didn't spend money on everything coming down the pike like the Knicks did. We have been in better shape than them because of it. And everybody in the know at the time that Paxson offered everything he had for Garnett. It just wasn't enough. Not Reinsdorf's fault. Reinsdorf was willing to build a team around Garnett, who would get paid almost $30mil at the end of his last contract, that is over half of the cap by itself. Doesn't seem cheap to me.



History over the past 25 years has shown that he pays for the players that win. He doesn't want to pay otherwise. Can you blame him? He overpaid players to try to win. To say that he doesn't want to win is unfair, he has made bad decisions, again, with both teams, but to say that he doesn't care about winning without strong evidence (and pointing to the organizational income statement is simply not strong enough, especially when the events of the time are put into consideration...). Lets remember that he offered to overpay three young players (and anybody who thinks Gordon was worth more than 50mil 2 or 3 years ago is "touched" to say the least) knowing that he would eventually have to spend more and more to get a championship.

Between those three and Wallace, you are talking 45mil a year for those four players. What was the cap back then, 53mil, 55mil, that meant that he would definitely go over the cap to put a team around those players. Look at the 1990's again, there was only one player in the league making more money than the salary cap...Michael Jordan. So because the team makes a large sum of money does not mean he spends on anybody, it does mean when opportunity presents itself, the Bulls make moves, and that is definitely the case according to history.

I know if I was a Bulls fan I'd have serious concerns about spending money on seats for a mediocre product.

So you are not a Bulls fan, I am, have been for 25 years. Should have known that you love BG, and that is your prerogative, just don't expect me to feel the same way.

 

[dougthonus]

How do you figure? Who would they have gotten that they didn't try to get.

You misread my point.

I said if the Lakers spent like the Bulls, with a hard barrier at the luxury tax limit, then they would not have won four titles in the past decade.

Accepting the high payroll was necessary for them to succeed. It wasn't the only thing necessary, nor was it the biggest thing (which was obviously getting star players), but it was part of what was necessary.

 

[houheffna]

You obviously don't think the Bulls feel the same way. You don't think that if Reinsdorf could bring Shaq and Kobe to the Bulls he wouldn't do it? My opinion? He does it. He proved it with Garnett, Kobe, McGrady and others through the years. What they realized, and thank goodness they did, is that they didnt have anything to win championships with.

 

[dougthonus]

houheffna wrote:

You obviously don't think the Bulls feel the same way. You don't think that if Reinsdorf could bring Shaq and Kobe to the Bulls he wouldn't do it? My opinion? He does it. He proved it with Garnett, Kobe, McGrady and others through the years. What they realized, and thank goodness they did, is that they didnt have anything to win championships with.

I don't think he values winning over profits. When we signed Ben Wallace, we wouldn't have dumped Tyson Chandler if we did. We wouldn't be talking about dumping Hinrich or Gordon in order to stay under the tax for a year.

He values his profits first and winning second. Of course if he could bring in a set of stars that assured titles he would do it because it would bring in more money. However, Reinsdorf would rather win 30 games and make 55 million than win 50 games and make 40 million in my opinion.

 

[engies]

houheffna wrote:

A mediocre player who happened to lead the team in scoring for 4 out of his first 5 seasons, I may be wrong but was 2nd in his rookie year in our scoring.

A mediocre player who was barely injured, who trained the hardest out of all our players, who was among the best shooters in the league, who averaged a low turnover rate considering the amount of ball time he had, who lead us to 4 playoff runs out of 5 seasons, who won us many games just off the back of his clutch performances, could go on & on & on about the traits of this so called "mediocre player"

A lot of these things are beyond debatable, they are as fact as the sun being insanely hot. I'm just in awe that someone can say the things that you're saying.

To me your not a real bulls fan because if you were you would've at least given Gordon a little bit of credit. You give him ZERO credit!

I dont think anyones debating that JR should be making a profit. But he should of course be giving back to the people if he wants to continue to profit. I know if I was a Bulls fan I'd have serious concerns about spending money on seats for a mediocre product. It would be different if JR was actually trying to build a winning team. Hell I wouldn't be so judgemental if JR hadnt pulled the 54/6 deal off the table, then later on (be it this off season, 2010 or whenever) traded BG for someone else he felt more qualified (within reason)

Instead he let BG walk due to pigheadedness & ignorance, & now we let a player, a so called mediocre player who had 17 teams interested, one who ended up signing him at 58/5, one who we drafted at #3 to walk away for NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

How the hell are we suposed to bring in a free agent now. Yes we have Rose, but do you think Bosh or whoever is gonna look at this team & go "ok if i join it, we have a chance to win a title". Maybe he would've if we had BG or someone else we traded BG for. Now I bet Bosh & others look at chicago as a team with tight ass owner who will not sacrifice ANY profit for winning! If I was Bosh & wanted to win I would have no faith in signing with a team with such an owner.

Just because people point this out doesnt make them any less Bulls fans. In fact, it makes them bigger fans than you, because they're concerned with the team winning, rather than the ownership profiting.

Do you think Bosh gives a damn about whether BG is here or not? The whole team is mediocre, there are no excellent players on this team. It amazes me that you all think we have extraordinary players. And please let the leading the team in scoring thing be. The only smart thing you have said is that we gave up BG for nothing, I agree with that. But the Bulls owe BG nothing, nothing at all. And if the Bulls had BG, Bosh shouldn't be impressed, because you don't win championships if Ben is the best player on your team. BG is a specialist, a hybrid Vinny Johnson, which is why you cannot compare him to the great shooting guards or even the very good shooting guards. And the good shooting guards are better because they can excel in multiple areas when it comes to basketball


He is good enough to keep both teams in a game. To that I said let him come off the bench, he should come off the bench. Let him back up Salmons. I have said that sense I have been on this forum. I never said let his ass go! But now that he is gone, later.

Great the Vinnie Johnson comparison, that has been dispelled many times, comes back again. Ben Gordon was a specialist, a specialist in a CRUCIAL AREA of the game we need. He was average in others (not poor by any stretch, he was just average) but his shooting & scoring is just so fantastic that makes him a good player

As far as Mediocre, to me a mediocre player is someone who could possibly start on some teams, come off the bench on others & basically is mediocre in everything (Hinrich could fit this tag, but his above average defense kinda helps him from being mediocre). Mediocre players dont lead scoring on 49 win teams buddy.

You bring up that we owe BG nothing! Even if that were true (which btw it is clearly not true, & you will see that when we have a miserable season) its not about that. Its about attain assets & if you dont like them, using those pieces in a trade for something better.

I never said Ben was going to be our best player. Hell I think if Rose continues to improve its no question that Ben would be 2nd best player. If Bosh came then he would be our 3rd best player. Theres been the Batman & 2 Robins theory to building championship teams or teams that contend:

Lakers: Kobe (Batman), Gasol & Odom (Robins)
Magic: Dwight (Batman), Hedo & Rashard (Robins)

The reason cavs didnt make it, they have 1 batman & 1 robin. Everyone else is mediocre or below. Now lets say Bosh comes here we would've had Rose, Bosh & Gordon. Thats a damn good trio, one hell of a big man, one of the best PG's & one of the best shooters.

Now without Gordon we have just Rose & btw Rose is already above mediocre & will continue to get better

 

[PJ Brown]

I don't think Jerry is cheap--I think he's stubborn. Not signing Gordon over the last fews years had a lot more to do with some chip he had on his shoulder over Gordon. He was happy to pay the other guys on the team, but had it in for Gordon, for some reason.

 

[engies]

houheffna wrote:

I know if I was a Bulls fan I'd have serious concerns about spending money on seats for a mediocre product.

So you are not a Bulls fan, I am, have been for 25 years. Should have known that you love BG, and that is your prerogative, just don't expect me to feel the same way.

To question my love for the team is something I wont except. I've spent hours of my time & much of my money (I'm not on a high income) on Bulls merchandise, which is extremely more expensive than it is for people in USA or are lucky enough to lie locally

I started following Bulls in 1993-94 when I became an NBA fan at the age of 11. I didn't just jump on the Jordan band wagon, I loved Scottie probably the most (even thou MJ was clearly the GOAT). I continued to follow throughout the Horri-bull years from 1999-2004 until we were finally saved from the cellar dwellers & became an up & coming team that made the playoffs. A huge huge reason for that was Ben Gordon. Of course I loved the other players & respect that it was a team effort, but if you took Ben out of that equation no way do we make the playoffs any of those seasons.

I however am extremely insulted that the team lied to us about retaining Gordon & let him walk for nothing. It is an absolute slap in the face to all the loyal fans, especially considering the fact we could've easily locked him in to a cheap long term deal that JR decided to pull because of some stupid deadline.

What other team would just let there leading scorer go like that? I'm in awe & total disbelieve that people like you exist, that a player who gave so much to the franchise can be disrespected by fans such as yourself is disgraceful. To top it off you defend a undisputedly tight ass owner who allowed him to walk for free.

Doug & others have posted the proof for you & you still dont get it. You're incorrigible.

I'm not going to stoop to saying you're not a fan, but I can't get my head around your train of thought what so ever. Others cant either so I'm not the only one.

 

[TheStig]

The saddest thing is we aren't having this conversation because resigning BG would put us in the LT for the next 5-6 years. We are only having this discusion about a singal year of LT payments. A one time event to solidify the team. After which we would still have max cap space next summer. Now we are being fed the line that we are doing this under the guise of going into 2010 for fas and not have enough for two max fas because we still have the albatross contracts of Deng and a $9million dollar back up combo guard. Meanwhile, we weren't willing to pay $11 million for our starter and leading scorer. 2010 will come and go because the stars have said they want to play together and we will miss an oppurtunity of being the most attractive place to play with being able to offer Rose, Salmons, Johnson and Noah plus money for two max fas. The writing is on the wall don't fall for the circus act that is being put up. We will be battling for 2nd tier old fa's like boozer or johnson that will be collecting pension payments before rose hits his prime. Why? Because we the brain trust of mediocrity has chosen to never pay the lt and only invest in the good ole boys like kirk and deng. This franchise is not looking to improve, they are enamored with yes men.

 

[houheffna]

I don't think he values winning over profits. When we signed Ben Wallace, we wouldn't have dumped Tyson Chandler if we did. We wouldn't be talking about dumping Hinrich or Gordon in order to stay under the tax for a year.

He values his profits first and winning second. Of course if he could bring in a set of stars that assured titles he would do it because it would bring in more money. However, Reinsdorf would rather win 30 games and make 55 million than win 50 games and make 40 million in my opinion.

Chandler was as good as gone because he didn't get along with Scott Skiles, and he said it after he left. Skiles resorted to benching him at times during the previous season. Plus having two highly paid big men with no offensive game would not have helped matters at all. Why do that. My problem is with the dump, letting Chandler go was not a problem at all. At the time, everyone thought that Wallace was a better version of Chandler anyway.

I respect your opinion in the second paragraph, you might be right, but I highly doubt it. If the team was winning and he was somehow losing money, he would sell the team most likely.

To me your not a real bulls fan because if you were you would've at least given Gordon a little bit of credit. You give him ZERO credit!

I have given him credit in the past, said he was a good scorer, below average in other areas, he is not average defensively and if you think he is, you are basketball Special person. Now these are your statements to me. I don't have to like BG to be a Bulls fan. I rooted for BG every game with every shot. I wanted him to win and the team to win. I never rooted against BG for one second while he was with the team. But I was highly critical of him, you gave your opinion on whether I was a bulls fan, I saw Jordan's first seasons in Chicago, I paid money, to go to games, I called off work and took a no call no show to go to Game 1 of the 1997 NBA Finals. Just to watch Michael Jordan and the Bulls against the Utah Jazz. I liked and disliked certain players on the team for various reasons. As with all Chicago teams-I don't care for Urlacher that much right now, he is a future HOFer. I root for him to make the tackles and I used to be a big fan of his. Its my right, and no one should tell me how real a fan I am because my opinion differs from yours. Then when I turn the tables, you get emotional?

If you are truly offended, I apologize, If I was wrong about you, I accept that, but don't let your mouth write a check your ass cant cash...

 

[clonetrooper264]

The way I see it, houheffna is to BG as Fred is to Hinrich.

 

[TheStig]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

The way I see it, houheffna is to BG as Fred is to Hinrich.

Yeah but Fred doesn't actively hate Kirk and his arguments are logical. Fred just values BG. Fred just hates the perpetual drones that harp on outdated ideologies about BG and Kirk.

 

[houheffna]

I don't hate BG, I have advocated his staying on the team, but not for over 10mil. I value Hinrich and BG about the same, wanted BG coming off the bench behind Salmons is all. I think BG is a decent player, as is Hinrich, both are nothing to cry about.

I have said that no players on this team are safe from being traded except for Rose. That includes Hinrich. I have said that over and over. And I don't hate anyone, I like spirited discussion, without the name calling.

 

[charity stripe]

You accuse BG of thinking about money during fast breaks, that's pure hate.

You say you don't like name calling, but you have called people dumbasses and another guy homeless.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

I don't hate BG, I have advocated his staying on the team, but not for over 10mil. I value Hinrich and BG about the same, wanted BG coming off the bench behind Salmons is all. I think BG is a decent player, as is Hinrich, both are nothing to cry about.

I have said that no players on this team are safe from being traded except for Rose. That includes Hinrich. I have said that over and over. And I don't hate anyone, I like spirited discussion, without the name calling.

Forget price for a minute, who is better BG or Kirk?

 

[Shakes]

dougthonus wrote:

When we signed Ben Wallace, we wouldn't have dumped Tyson Chandler if we did.

Disagree, look at how the Hornets tried and failed to dump Tyson for an expiring. His value on the Bulls would have been even lower, because he'd have struggled to get playing time with the way our roster was constructed.

I think after drafting Tyrus and getting Wallace we had to dump Tyson before we were stuck with dead cap space. While I don't disagree it worked out well financially, it was also a very sound basketball decision (OK, the signing Wallace part wasn't ... but at this point I think all Bulls fans know that).

To me the problem with this whole "cheap" thing is that players values are tied up in both how good they are and how much they are paid. So "cheap" moves are often also good decisions. I think not signing BG, while "cheap", is also a good decision. If we'd let Detroit get him on a slightly more than MLE contract or something silly, then I think we'd be in a better position to complain. But as it is, I think it's impossibile to know the actual motivations because it's easy to see not signing him as a basketball decision. The neutral press I've read seems to reflect this, most are basically saying the Bulls are savvy not wanting to overpay.

 

[TheStig]

How did they fail to dump Tyson. Tyson failed the physical because he was injured not because no one would take him. They successfully agreed to a trade that was considered a steal around the league and only done because the hornets are broke and couldn't dump Peja.