Fangraphs National League Projection's for 2015

brett05

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Not sure if you know this but there can't be a neutral, baseball games can't end in a tie. You're making up subjective measurements to confirm a bias.

You are trying to argue that there never exists a chance for a manager to create a run through positioning or take away runs. We have seen that through defensive shifts that averages throughout the league have drastically decreased for those types of hitters (an average of 15 percentage points).

A manager can't pitch hit or field thus they can never be part of the winning. Not sure why but you have missed that point multiple times in this thread
 

JP Hochbaum

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A manager can't pitch hit or field thus they can never be part of the winning. Not sure why but you have missed that point multiple times in this thread

I am actually going off what you said, that they can contribute to losing. It necessarily follows that they also contribute to winning if the reduce their chances of not contributing to losing, that is why I brought up set theory, as only two results can occur, not contributing to losing or contributing to losing. Therefore if they can reduce the chance of adding to losses it necessarily follows that they are then contributing to wins, a basic tenet of set theory.
 

brett05

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I am actually going off what you said, that they can contribute to losing. It necessarily follows that they also contribute to winning if the reduce their chances of not contributing to losing, that is why I brought up set theory, as only two results can occur, not contributing to losing or contributing to losing. Therefore if they can reduce the chance of adding to losses it necessarily follows that they are then contributing to wins, a basic tenet of set theory.
Managers cannot add to winning. They do not pitch hit or field. The best they can do is not mess up...aka neutral. Every wrong decision increases the chance for the team to lose. It's a myth that a manager can win a game.

Let's try another example illustration here. A jack hammer is neutral. It can contribute to destruction but never to construction
 
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Parade_Rain

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JP- it isn't worth discussing with people who think a manager is neutral. MLB fames dont end in a tie. Theo Epstein is a baseball expert. He didn't get rid of RR to get Maddon so Joe could make the fewest mistakes. He brought Maddon in to help win more ballgames. The W-L column isn't neutral.
 

TC in Mississippi

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JP- it isn't worth discussing with people who think a manager is neutral. MLB fames dont end in a tie. Theo Epstein is a baseball expert. He didn't get rid of RR to get Maddon so Joe could make the fewest mistakes. He brought Maddon in to help win more ballgames. The W-L column isn't neutral.

Honestly I don't see anyone saying that. The manager matters for how he runs his team. That's what makes the Bochy's, Francona's etc. Francona, in Boston, is an excellent example of what happens when a guy that runs a solid clubhouse and puts players in position to succeed loses the ability to do that. Yet he goes to Cleveland and finds some success again. The foundation is what allows you to win. In that sense managers are important. In game situations are difficult if not impossible to quantify with any accuracy. That's hardly saying manager's don't matter.
 

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I'm sorry you can't quantify moves during a ballgame as a positive or negative. Maddon runs a shift more than any other. That alone is one way he impacts each game. W-L.
 

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Honestly I don't see anyone saying that. The manager matters for how he runs his team. That's what makes the Bochy's, Francona's etc. Francona, in Boston, is an excellent example of what happens when a guy that runs a solid clubhouse and puts players in position to succeed loses the ability to do that. Yet he goes to Cleveland and finds some success again. The foundation is what allows you to win. In that sense managers are important. In game situations are difficult if not impossible to quantify with any accuracy. That's hardly saying manager's don't matter.

You're only half right. Francona didn't lose any ability in Boston. He was the guy that managed the club during two championship seasons. He got fired because the players underperformed.

Again, not the manager's fault when a lousy team plays lousy, or good veterans players and pitchers stink it up. Managers have to take the fall because you can't fire the players.

You honestly think Francona changed what he's done gor years when he won AL MOY with Cleveland?


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ChiSoxCity

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I'm sorry you can't quantify moves during a ballgame as a positive or negative. Maddon runs a shift more than any other. That alone is one way he impacts each game. W-L.

So he shifts guys around the field, so what? How has that benefitted his team with wins?


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TC in Mississippi

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You're only half right. Francona didn't lose any ability in Boston. He was the guy that managed the club during two championship seasons. He got fired because the players underperformed.

Again, not the manager's fault when a lousy team plays lousy, or good veterans players and pitchers stink it up. Managers have to take the fall because you can't fire the players.

You honestly think Francona changed what he's done gor years when he won AL MOY with Cleveland?


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No, he didn't change at all but sometimes even the best managers lose their clubhouse and in turn whatever it is that helps them put players in position to win. Quite often that's s factor for underperforming players. Part of the game. Sometimes a shakeup and a new voice helps right the ship.
 

ChiSoxCity

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No, he didn't change at all but sometimes even the best managers lose their clubhouse and in turn whatever it is that helps them put players in position to win. Quite often that's s factor for underperforming players. Part of the game. Sometimes a shakeup and a new voice helps right the ship.

Hasn't worked for the Cubs.


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brett05

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JP- it isn't worth discussing with people who think a manager is neutral.

You are right it's not worth discussing the obvious. Correcting the incorrect however...

MLB fames dont end in a tie.

Nothing to do with the topic at hand.


Theo Epstein is a baseball expert.

Not part of the discussion.

He didn't get rid of RR to get Maddon so Joe could make the fewest mistakes. He brought Maddon in to help win more ballgames.

No, he brought him in to make the best possible outcomes to allow the ones that can win be in the best position to win.


The W-L column isn't neutral.

Again, nothing to do with the topic at hand.
 

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You are right it's not worth discussing the obvious. Correcting the incorrect however...



Nothing to do with the topic at hand.




Not part of the discussion.



No, he brought him in to make the best possible outcomes to allow the ones that can win be in the best position to win.




Again, nothing to do with the topic at hand.
So, IOW, doing what he (Maddon) does puts more games (outcome) in the W column. Thanks for making my point.
 

brett05

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So, IOW, doing what he (Maddon) does puts more games (outcome) in the W column. Thanks for making my point.

No, what he does is minimize mistakes. Managers don't win ball games. It's a myth you need to stop.
 

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Here you are like far left loons making claims that truths are myths, hoping the ignorant masses believe you.
 

brett05

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Here you are like far left loons making claims that truths are myths, hoping the ignorant masses believe you.

More illogical comments. The number of people agreeing with something does nothing to the truth of something.
 

Parade_Rain

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It has already been pointed out to you how illogical your neutral/loss position is.
 

brett05

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It has already been pointed out to you how illogical your neutral/loss position is.

And it was not applicable. By several people myself included it was proven that a manager never hits, pitches, nor fields which means they never are responsible for a win.
 

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