Fire Ozzie Guillen: He Needs To Be Fired Right Now

AE23

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Its real hard to judge KW, not all his move have been bad/good, avergae GM at best, good owner to work for though for sure, last years i questioned taking on Rios salary, but it worked, had a good year, this year Rios :turrible::obama:
 

Gunzaan

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Its real hard to judge KW, not all his move have been bad/good, avergae GM at best, good owner to work for though for sure, last years i questioned taking on Rios salary, but it worked, had a good year, this year Rios :turrible::obama:

I'm sure my attitude comes off as hating KW, but I merely dislike him. I would agree that he has had a great owner to work for, who is willing to spend $$, which is why I would consider him average at best.

But oh well, looks like we are stuck with him so I hope he can make some great moves for the franchise in the upcoming months. If we keep playing like we are, I can imagine we will be huge "sellers" coming June/July and it would be nice if we could dump some of the older and/or useless talent on this team to pick up some younger players with actual talent (as opposed to just "potential").

I really think that anyone can or should be traded, with the exception of Danks and Santos. Other then that, I don't see anyone else on the roster that can play a huge role for a rebuilding team for the next 2 or 3 years!
 

AE23

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I'm sure my attitude comes off as hating KW, but I merely dislike him. I would agree that he has had a great owner to work for, who is willing to spend $$, which is why I would consider him average at best.

But oh well, looks like we are stuck with him so I hope he can make some great moves for the franchise in the upcoming months. If we keep playing like we are, I can imagine we will be huge "sellers" coming June/July and it would be nice if we could dump some of the older and/or useless talent on this team to pick up some younger players with actual talent (as opposed to just "potential").

I really think that anyone can or should be traded, with the exception of Danks and Santos. Other then that, I don't see anyone else on the roster that can play a huge role for a rebuilding team for the next 2 or 3 years!

i can agree with that, except keep Pauly.
 

DewsSox79

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Bitching and moaning? More like pointing out all of the flawed deals that KW has pulled the trigger on in the past.

I also pointed out A LOT more moves that have gone bad, that you seem to gloss over, because you have no defense for those trades.

You keep sticking with Gavin Floyd (and W's/L's are important. You want your pitcher to have an above .500 record if you are going to defend the trade. Bragging about trading for a sub-.500 pitcher is a weak argument) and Adam Dunn. (I have already admitted that the Dunn deal is TOO EARLY to tell).

I'm just going to drop the subject because you haven't proven shit in the defense of KW's past failings. For whatever reason, you like the guy and instead of arguing your point, you keep countering with Floyd, Dunn and Carlos Lee. There are just some people that are impossible to argue or discuss things with and I'll leave it at that.

Continue your love for KW :fap:, I will continue to dislike KW and will continue to explain WHY I have those feelings.

List the bad trades here that are your opinion.

you are the one that has brought up those deals, the deals that are far from bad that is why i counter your arguement.
 

DewsSox79

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gavin floyd-http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/floydga01.shtml
k/9 is descent, see his whip and era, Prone to giving up basehits. how did freddy do for the phils? it isnt about wins and losses. Jon Danks is 0-5 I guess he sucks too.

maggs/lee- we may never have gotten a championship with them here. maggs was an overpriced POS.

bacon- Who would you have drafted that was available?

Dunn- :rolleyes: 1 month into the season? really? from a player who has been out a week from surgery already? is that KWs fault that he needed his appendix removed? If we trade him now, and he starts to do good, i bet you will say that was a bad deal.

Rios-bad move due to price.

bump for gunzaan.
 

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Ozzie still needs to be fired.
 

DewsSox79

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KW bad decisions:

- Letting Magglio go
- Letting Carlos Lee go. Yes, we got Pods who had a great 2005 but Carlos has been the better player overall.
- Signing Teabag Teahan to a 3 year deal. He is a below average, platoon player, being payed average starter $$.
- Javier Vasquez deal
- Alex Rios' $$ is ridiculous. Toronto was estatic to get him off the books. He made $9.7 mil last year. $12 mil this year and next year. $12.5 million in 2013 and 2014. You don't think that money could be better spent?
- Manny Ramirez, while pretty minor, was a waste of $5 million (and yes, I know the Dodgers paid most of his salary, but the Sox still wasted $5 million on him)
- The Floyd deal is even questionable. Yes, we dealt Garcia (and then resigned him a few years later) but Floyd has been a .500 pitcher since we got him. For all of the "potential" he shows, he is still average at best.
- Trading away Gio Gonzalez to the A's for Swisher. Gio is a solid starter now, and Swisher sucked balls for the Sox.
- Jake Peavy. Yes, the dude has been one big IR mess, but he had a huge injury history before the trade, so the Peavy mess does fall on KW.
- Gordan Beckham looks like a bum. Sure, blame it on the scouts, but who makes the final decision?
- Too early to tell, but Dunn doesn't look like money well spent.

Has KW made some good moves? You bet. The Danks trade, bringing in Iguchi, AJ, Dye, Thornton, etc. There are good moves sprinkled in with his bone-headed moves.

Has Ozzie managed the team like a complete Special person the past 2+ years? You bet, as you have posted in multiple threads. I agree with all that you say about Ozzie.

But why does the blame have to STOP at Ozzie? Why can't KW be part of the problem? I completely acknowledge that Ozzie is a huge problem, but I also believe that KW is also a huge problem. Look at some of the smaller market teams that have a lot less $$$ to work with that have great teams. There are 15 other GM's I'd rather have for the White Sox, who would spend the $$ in a better way.

I think Sox fans have a tendency to look at the Cubs and how they mismanage their team to justifiy the Sox's average performances the past 3 years. Is Jim Hendry awful? Yup. Does he make KW look good? Yup. That shouldn't matter because we deserve and expect better than what KW has done over the past 5+ years.

KW takes way too many risks and the Sox have too big of a payroll to have THIS many busts. Just as Ozzie's managing has been unacceptable, KW's GMing has been unacceptable, IMO. This isn't about a reactionary move to the "NOW" as Dews keeps claiming. KW has been taking risky moves his entire GMing career for the Sox.

again I countered your insane opinion. look at what you wrote, you are talking about Dunn, beckham being drafted,fucking magglio and carlos lee...you thoughts are sparatic and assine. sure he made bad moves but who doesnt?
 

Gunzaan

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Hey man, I am completely sorry that I missed the past 2 bumps.

I will get on this thread this weekend.

I do have some opinion to add to this thread.

And assine is spelled asinine
 

DewsSox79

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Hey man, I am completely sorry that I missed the past 2 bumps.

I will get on this thread this weekend.

I do have some opinion to add to this thread.

And assine is spelled asinine

you got me, 3:26 AM, sorry for that. you would think I wouldnt made it out of law school and passed the series 7 with that kind of spelling on a message board. but anyway please feel free to back up how magglio being taded, carlos lee being traded, freddy for Gavin, Adam Dunn signing etc etc was soooo bad by KW.
 

Gunzaan

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you got me, 3:26 AM, sorry for that. you would think I wouldnt made it out of law school and passed the series 7 with that kind of spelling on a message board. but anyway please feel free to back up how magglio being taded, carlos lee being traded, freddy for Gavin, Adam Dunn signing etc etc was soooo bad by KW.

- Magglio - .325+ avg hitter plus a batting title after the Sox. Don't know anyone in the Sox OF to compare to that since his trade. He pissed off Ozzie, so he was gone and look at how many people want to fire Ozzie now.

- Carlos Lee - I would take him over Pods anyday. SBs aren't very accurate of a players value, ESPECIALLY during the juiced year that you will obviously mention in 2005. Shit, look at Pierre last year. His 60 SBs meant very little. Carlos Lee, besides the last 2 years (which Pods has been shit in as well), has been a very solid 3/4 hitter in the Astros lineup! Imagine him in our lineup.

- Gavin Floyd - Good value in the trade for Freddie Garcia but horrible scouting by KW. Floyd has been a .500 pitcher and we have signed him to an extension!

- Dunn - As I have said, given his track record and early poor start this looks bad but time will tell. I have stated multiple times that it is too early to make a final conclusion on this trade but you keep making a point that I have made a final judgment on this trade. Not the case. Do I have to state again that time will tell?

- Beckham - First of all, how can you defend the guy. He isn't very good at the plate and it is a mental problem with him. Who would I have drafted? Aaron Hicks, Justin Smoak, Josh Fields (not the one you are thinking of.. the pitcher) or Daniel Schlereth, just to name a few.

Let's move on to points you haven't addressed. (Cut and pasted from before, because you ignored them)

- Signing Teabag Teahan to a 3 year deal. He is a below average, platoon player, being payed average starter $$.

- Javier Vasquez deal

- Alex Rios' $$ is ridiculous. Toronto was estatic to get him off the books. He made $9.7 mil last year. $12 mil this year and next year. $12.5 million in 2013 and 2014. You don't think that money could be better spent?

- Manny Ramirez, while pretty minor, was a waste of $5 million (and yes, I know the Dodgers paid most of his salary, but the Sox still wasted $5 million on him) Just admit it was a stupid signing to gain ticket sales and move on. I have NO problem admitting when I make a mistake.

- Trading away Gio Gonzalez to the A's for Swisher. Gio is a solid starter now, and Swisher sucked balls for the Sox.

- Jake Peavy. Yes, the dude has been one big IR mess, but he had a huge injury history before the trade, so the Peavy mess does fall on KW.


"KW takes way too many risks and the Sox have too big of a payroll to have THIS many busts. Just as Ozzie's managing has been unacceptable, KW's GMing has been unacceptable, IMO. This isn't about a reactionary move to the "NOW" as Dews keeps claiming. KW has been taking risky moves his entire GMing career for the Sox."

That is my point, the bolded and underlined point. As I said before, we obviously agree to disagree. That's fine. But I think I have made a point to admit where I might have been wrong or shortsighted. You tend to pick on a few points of an entire debate, harp on them heavily and ignore the whole debate and then call the other person the loser without admiting your weaknesses.

Whatever dude.
 

Gunzaan

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And, since you are trying to prove how right you are, I am not surprised that you didn't reply to this post. Let me refresh your memory:

"And let's look at teams GM'd better then the White Sox, considering the $$ each team can spend:

Braves, Twins, Red Sox, Giants, Cardinals, Rangers, Marlins, Angels, Rays, and Reds.

Sure, you can make the argument that the White Sox are better GM'd then some other teams, but considering the $$ the White Sox spend, we should be better off then we are. "

Are the White Sox, with an owner that is willing to spend top dollar, really worth having an average at best GM? Or do you think that KW is better then the teams I just mentioned.
 

DewsSox79

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- Magglio - .325+ avg hitter plus a batting title after the Sox. Don't know anyone in the Sox OF to compare to that since his trade. He pissed off Ozzie, so he was gone and look at how many people want to fire Ozzie now.

- Carlos Lee - I would take him over Pods anyday. SBs aren't very accurate of a players value, ESPECIALLY during the juiced year that you will obviously mention in 2005. Shit, look at Pierre last year. His 60 SBs meant very little. Carlos Lee, besides the last 2 years (which Pods has been shit in as well), has been a very solid 3/4 hitter in the Astros lineup! Imagine him in our lineup.

- Gavin Floyd - Good value in the trade for Freddie Garcia but horrible scouting by KW. Floyd has been a .500 pitcher and we have signed him to an extension!

- Dunn - As I have said, given his track record and early poor start this looks bad but time will tell. I have stated multiple times that it is too early to make a final conclusion on this trade but you keep making a point that I have made a final judgment on this trade. Not the case. Do I have to state again that time will tell?

- Beckham - First of all, how can you defend the guy. He isn't very good at the plate and it is a mental problem with him. Who would I have drafted? Aaron Hicks, Justin Smoak, Josh Fields (not the one you are thinking of.. the pitcher) or Daniel Schlereth, just to name a few.

Let's move on to points you haven't addressed. (Cut and pasted from before, because you ignored them)

- Signing Teabag Teahan to a 3 year deal. He is a below average, platoon player, being payed average starter $$.

- Javier Vasquez deal

- Alex Rios' $$ is ridiculous. Toronto was estatic to get him off the books. He made $9.7 mil last year. $12 mil this year and next year. $12.5 million in 2013 and 2014. You don't think that money could be better spent?

- Manny Ramirez, while pretty minor, was a waste of $5 million (and yes, I know the Dodgers paid most of his salary, but the Sox still wasted $5 million on him) Just admit it was a stupid signing to gain ticket sales and move on. I have NO problem admitting when I make a mistake.

- Trading away Gio Gonzalez to the A's for Swisher. Gio is a solid starter now, and Swisher sucked balls for the Sox.

- Jake Peavy. Yes, the dude has been one big IR mess, but he had a huge injury history before the trade, so the Peavy mess does fall on KW.


"KW takes way too many risks and the Sox have too big of a payroll to have THIS many busts. Just as Ozzie's managing has been unacceptable, KW's GMing has been unacceptable, IMO. This isn't about a reactionary move to the "NOW" as Dews keeps claiming. KW has been taking risky moves his entire GMing career for the Sox."

That is my point, the bolded and underlined point. As I said before, we obviously agree to disagree. That's fine. But I think I have made a point to admit where I might have been wrong or shortsighted. You tend to pick on a few points of an entire debate, harp on them heavily and ignore the whole debate and then call the other person the loser without admiting your weaknesses.

Whatever dude.

1) Teahan wasnt the best money spent, but again we are talking peanuts for a salary, not a HUGE BAD MOVE. Not great either due to his ability.

2) Manny- 5 million to try to get into the playoffs and replace MARK KOTSAY in the line up with manny I would do again if I were to go back in time.

3) Nick Swisher move wasnt a bad deal, If you listened to the broadcasts, read the paper, again you would know he didnt fit in with ozzie. which brings back your magglio point (again we won the WS after he left, but whatever) ozzie didnt like magglio either. Swisher being dealt out of town was the worst, only because his numbers were so bad, his value was very low.

4) jake Peavy didnt have a "major" injury history. he was on the DL for his ankle, he wasnt kerry wood or mark prior. before his ankle injury he was pitching 200 innings every year or very close to that. so I dont know where you get your player history from.

5) gio- trading away a prospect? so how many of out prospects are out there tearing it up in the majors? sweeney? lol borchard? haha

6) I do not defend the Rios move, as much of a block it was, I do not defend
it. bad move, bad money.

7) bacon- the jury is still out on him, because he has been swinging at everything doesnt mean he was a good pick.

8) Gavin Floyd is a serviceable 3rd starter.

9) Carlos Lee? stop just stop.

10) Magglio- scott boras client, replaced by Jermaine Dye ( I believe he won the yellow SSR in OCT for WS MVP)

------------------------------------------------------------
you cannot use your arguements for the NOW and the PAST you have to evaluate as a whole.

so how did the CQ deal work out?

how about moving Loiza?

Contreras FTW
EL Duque FTW
Hermanson FTW
Jenks FTW
Thome FTW
Danks FTW
Everett helping out due to Thomas injury
drafts? Chris Sale FTW
Tadahito FTW
Thornton FTW----------Peace out Joe Borchard
Oh and how is the Humber signing looking?

This is all off the top of my head.
 

Uman85

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KW is IMO in the top 5 of GMs in all of MLB. Every GM makes mistakes on deals that he feels would work best for his team. However, I believe Williams has done far more good than bad with this team. He brought Chicago its only World Series championship in the last 94 years.
 

Gunzaan

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1) Teahan wasnt the best money spent, but again we are talking peanuts for a salary, not a HUGE BAD MOVE. Not great either due to his ability.
Agree to disagree. It was a BAD move. We could have Viciedo on the team if this bum wasn't taking up roster space because we are paying him.
2) Manny- 5 million to try to get into the playoffs and replace MARK KOTSAY in the line up with manny I would do again if I were to go back in time.
Wow. Just wow. Besides the fact that Kotsay was on the team to begin with, I don't understand how you can just throw away $5 million and say you would throw it away again. Take away some of these bum $$ moves and we could have another player or two.
3) Nick Swisher move wasnt a bad deal, If you listened to the broadcasts, read the paper, again you would know he didnt fit in with ozzie. which brings back your magglio point (again we won the WS after he left, but whatever) ozzie didnt like magglio either. Swisher being dealt out of town was the worst, only because his numbers were so bad, his value was very low.
Gio Gonzalez is above average and could have been used to get a player that is still here today. Bringing in players that don't get along with Ozzie is also a negative of the GM.
4) jake Peavy didnt have a "major" injury history. he was on the DL for his ankle, he wasnt kerry wood or mark prior. before his ankle injury he was pitching 200 innings every year or very close to that. so I dont know where you get your player history from.
Another excuse. Peavy had elbow troubles and ankle troubles before he came to the Sox. Yes, his freak shoulder injury is new but he was injured before coming to the Sox.
5) gio- trading away a prospect? so how many of out prospects are out there tearing it up in the majors? sweeney? lol borchard? haha
Read Swisher response. He could have been used in a trade with a player that actually didn't blow ass for the Sox.
6) I do not defend the Rios move, as much of a block it was, I do not defend
it. bad move, bad money.
OMG, you actually admitted KW might have made a bad move!!!! It's a festivus miracle!
7) bacon- the jury is still out on him, because he has been swinging at everything doesnt mean he was a good pick.
Agreed, the jury is still out. He has time to improve but every day and every year that goes by, it unfortunately seems less and less likely.
8) Gavin Floyd is a serviceable 3rd starter.
A true statement, but not for the money we have spent on him in total.
9) Carlos Lee? stop just stop.
Stop, just stop? We missed out on 3-5 years of prime power hitting. Just going by his stats from 2005-2008 for Houston we missed him and he was hitting in a SHIT lineup. Imagine if he was on the Sox.
10) Magglio- scott boras client, replaced by Jermaine Dye ( I believe he won the yellow SSR in OCT for WS MVP)
Won a batting title after leaving the Sox. A valid point with Dye replacing him, nonetheless.
------------------------------------------------------------
you cannot use your arguements for the NOW and the PAST you have to evaluate as a whole. I am evaluating as a whole, no clue what you are talking about. I am looking at his entire stay at GM of the Sox.

so how did the CQ deal work out?
CQ has had one year, then punched a locker and hurt the Sox horribly. The White Sox have relied on him in the 2 years since then and he has been injured or underperformed. Saying this is a positive for KW is silly. Neutral at best.
how about moving Loiza? A good move, no doubt.

Contreras FTW A good move for one year, he was mediocre the rest of the time, but a good move overall.
EL Duque FTW Not a good move, considering the money spent. He did one amazing inning against the Red Sox in the playoffs. People get blinded by 2005 magic, this is a big case of that.
Hermanson FTW Nothing special, 2005 luck, not money well spent.
Jenks FTW Once again, 2005 - That's it. In fact, a serious argument could be made that after 2005, he was a HUGE problem for the team.
Thome FTW Eh, he was okay. People like big white boys, just like Bears fans love white linebackers. Not bad but not great.
Danks FTW A great trade
Everett helping out due to Thomas injury For the money, a great move.
drafts? Chris Sale FTW Yet to be determined, I am hardly impressed this year.
Tadahito FTW Great move!
Thornton FTW----------Peace out Joe Borchard He is being paid closer money to be an 8th inning guy. This can easily be viewed as a negative move.
Oh and how is the Humber signing looking? Good shit, so far!

This is all off the top of my head.

I have no idea why you accused me of not looking at KW's entire GMing for the Sox, when most of the moves you are looking at is directly correlated to 2005.

Yes, an amazing year we will all remember but a GM's job is to re-load year after year after year. KW got lucky that so many people had career years that year and starting pitching decided to become invulnerable for the playoff run. People seem to forget that the Sox almost choked the division away that year.


Now, I had decided that I wouldn't respond to you anymore, since a certain mod told us to stop, but you actually responded to many of the comments I had made in the past in a respectful way, so I am replying as such. We obviously disagree. Fine with me.
 

Gunzaan

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KW is IMO in the top 5 of GMs in all of MLB. Every GM makes mistakes on deals that he feels would work best for his team. However, I believe Williams has done far more good than bad with this team. He brought Chicago its only World Series championship in the last 94 years.

Please, comment on this then:

"And let's look at teams GM'd better then the White Sox, considering the $$ each team can spend:

Braves, Twins, Red Sox, Giants, Cardinals, Rangers, Marlins, Angels, Rays, and Reds.

Sure, you can make the argument that the White Sox are better GM'd then some other teams, but considering the $$ the White Sox spend, we should be better off then we are. "

Are the White Sox, with an owner that is willing to spend top dollar, really worth having an average at best GM? Or do you think that KW is better then the teams I just mentioned.


You seriously think KW has done a better job then these teams? Seriously?

And the fact that he is a top 5 GM, in your opinion, because of 2005, is exactly the short-sighted perspective of GMing that I think is unfortunately prevelant with Sox fans. The Sox spend tons of $$$$, there is no reason we shouldn't in the playoffs more often then we are. The GM should be re-loading year after year after year.
 

DewsSox79

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I have no idea why you accused me of not looking at KW's entire GMing for the Sox, when most of the moves you are looking at is directly correlated to 2005.

Yes, an amazing year we will all remember but a GM's job is to re-load year after year after year. KW got lucky that so many people had career years that year and starting pitching decided to become invulnerable for the playoff run. People seem to forget that the Sox almost choked the division away that year.


Now, I had decided that I wouldn't respond to you anymore, since a certain mod told us to stop, but you actually responded to many of the comments I had made in the past in a respectful way, so I am replying as such. We obviously disagree. Fine with me.

Post 2005:

Cuban missle
Danyan Viciedo
matt thornton
jj putz
sergio santos
resigning konerko
signing adam dunn
signing jesse crain

side note, we have an insurance policy on JP, also one of the so called prospects that we sent to SD is back with the sox due to being cut.
 

Gunzaan

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Post 2005:

Cuban missle An average shortstop?
Danyan Viciedo I actually think he could be a good player, unfortunately, he won't be used at all because of the Teahan contract, another KW gem.
matt thornton We just gave him closer money to blow saves and be an 8th inning guy.
jj putz Uhh... he blew so bad last year that he is on another team.
sergio santos A great signing! I see a ton of potential in him.
resigning konerko A signing to appease the fanbase. Look at X-Factor's "All-Star first basemen" thread. There are people voting him #1, aka TheChiguy or whatever. *ROFLROFLROFL* A great guy, but resigning him was because he wanted fans to fill the ballpark. A great player, but not a great signing by any means.
signing adam dunn Yet to be seen, I think a bust, we'll see. So far an underachiever and has your boy Konerko to protect him yet is batting .210.
signing jesse crain So far so good.

side note, we have an insurance policy on JP, also one of the so called prospects that we sent to SD is back with the sox due to being cut.

edit: You don't even answer half of what I write in your replies. My god you are fucking dense. How did you become a mod? Because you are nice? It certainly isn't because of your intelligent or knowledge able debating ability. This is like talking to a 7 year old Special person.

I still don't understand the point of your retort. You aren't looking at KW's entire GMing career as a White Sox GM.

You either ignore anything post 2005, or suddenly you come up with a list that is entirely made of this year's roster (which btw, isn't a great defense, since they are underachieving so badly). I don't even know where you are coming from anymore. It's just silly as ****. Seriously.

I can counter your points all day, and honestly, I feel like calling you silly (or a worse word, although you will ban me if I say a bad word!!!!) but this is the worst debate/discussion/argument I have ever participated in on sports forum.

Not only that, but you still won't respond to the reply of mine that lists the amount of teams that have been better GM'd in the past 5 years then the Sox.

I'm done talking about this with you. You are to thick to talk to. Keep on keeping on, Dews. You are one of a kind.
 

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Putz blew last season? :confused:
 

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