Gay Marriage Ruling in Federal Court

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Ted Olson Interview With Fox News Sunday's Chris Wallace

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJwSprkiInE[/youtube]
 

BiscuitintheBasket

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[quote name="TSD"]



I would beg to differ on the bolded. Most (at least of the popular/famous ones) were actually Deists. I could dig up alot of quotes out of letters by Thomas Paine ( who called the bible a pile of dung), jefferson, Washington, John Adams to name a few, where they have some choice words in regard to christianity and religion in general.



lol, I got in an argument with a guy on youtube over the weekend from a guy that posted a video about prop 8 and he said marriage comes from the bible. I named numerous cultures that WERE NOT christian that marriage existed (in fact every culture no matter what and when, had/has some sort of life pairing between to people).



He replied and said something I couldn't comprehend and said see, it comes from the bible, and I decided not to pursue it anymore after that nonsense.[/quote]





Just to clarify I am not stating that the founding fathers developed the US based on Christian values. I do agree that some of the 70-ish founding fathers did not follow or concede a Christian based system (and yes they tend to be the ones talked about the most in recent times (however John Adams was barely a discussion in grade school, or even my first two years of history classes for my first BA which is in History)).



What I was trying to point out is that many of them did have some type of Christian background, and even with determining a separation of Church and State as a good thing (and it is), they still needed to take some consideration. Have to also keep in mind society of the time period and what was predominant. Pandering to some extent was necessary...just as it has been throughout the history of this country. Sadly sometimes that pandering is taken too far as I pointed out with the pledge.
 

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[quote name="CLWolf81"]



The smart ones do it in hotel rooms or someone else's place. The ones who take too many risks or are stupid when it comes to getting some do it in the park.



You'd also be surprised about what happens at 12 noon in some office buildings... :lol:[/quote]





LOL! Sometimes I am amazed at what I run across on campus in some of the dark and hidden crannies or classrooms that are not in use. One time many years ago I needed to get into an office to work on someone's computer. Lights were off and no one answered to a knock, so I used my master key to get in. Needless to say what has been seen has not been unseen...I also suspect that the student passed their class with an A+++++
 

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Stay will be lifted on August 18, 2010 at 5:00 PM PDT (see link below for 11 pp 8/13/10 ruling).





"None of the factors the court weighs in considering a motion to stay favors granting a stay. Accordingly, proponents’ motion for a stay is DENIED. Doc #705. The clerk is DIRECTED to enter judgment forthwith. That judgment shall be STAYED until August 18, 2010 at 5 PM PDT at which time defendants and all persons under their control or supervision shall cease to apply or enforce Proposition 8.



IT IS SO ORDERED."



http://www.kcra.com/pdf/24610978/detail.html
 

TSD

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Quick question.



Im not stirring the pot I am genuinely curious, are their any supporters of prop 8 on this forum that ARE NOT religious, or at least not basing their view point on religious grounds?
 

the canadian dream

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Still amazes me that gay marriage is an issue with some people. Religious based or just a distraction away from real world issues. Whatever the reason there are bigger and better things to be protesting out there. Gays not going away people. Has always been and always will be. Even Jseus couldn't stop Billy fisherman from poking Ahab the clay plot maker. Or Mary the Carpenters wife from having a little lick lick with Dierdra the basket weaver. I'm not 100% sure if Jesus even tried to stop it or wanted to try to. Even he knew there were bigger and real issues out there to be concerned with.



Gay is gay. No homemade sign is going to stop it and no screaming at the top of your lungs in a church is going to slow it down. Lets get out priorities straight and maybe those issues that need attending will get attending. Those who protest gay marrigae are just lazy and affraid of putting their arms up for a real cause. Not one anti-gay marriage argument has even made sense and not one has ever been proposed which wasn't riddled in hypocracy and ill research. Pathetic. All arguments against gay marriage are pathetic. Made by pathetic people and their pathetic lives.



End of story.
 

jaxhawksfan

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I have refrained from offering my opinion in this thread, but since some of you are genuinely curious I'll offer this up.......



The DEFINITION of marriage is a joining of one man and one woman. When you start tinkering with that definition you are opening the door to more future changes of the definition and that could lead to man marries dog, woman marries 3 women, man marries horse or any other ridiculous sceniario.



There are only two facets to marriage: legal and religious. We won't discuss religious here because it doesn't fit the topic. Legally, gay couples already have the same rights as anyone else. You want to make "power of attorney" decisions for your partner, then draw up a living will or sign power of attorney. Want to include them on your insurance? There are at least 4 major insurance carriers in EVERY SINGLE ONE of our 50 states that will cover a domestic partner. Want to pay the marriage tax? I would only ask why.



The issue gets skewed in the media like all others. You always hear about the CHAMPION case of the hospital in Miami that didn't allow the gay partner to make decisions or see the other person as they died. The person had a legal right (to my understanding) because they had power of attorney to make medical decisions. A couple people at the hospital acted inappropriately in the situation. The hospital was sued. If it hasn't been to court yet, the hospital will lose. End of that story.



As many of you in the health industry know, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference if you are family or not, the hospital can deny you visitation for many reasons. Being "married" whether gay or straight doesn't change that. I have first hand experience with my father being kicked out of the room on a couple different occasions at the hospital.



There is my explanation. I have many gay friends and I think gay people should be allowed to love and express love to whoever they choose. Nobody can stop a person from loving another person if that is what they choose to do. Have a ceremony, invite your friends to join in your love for each other. Give and receive gifts, move in together. Buy a home together and live happily ever after. Have a joint bank account. Buy pets. Do all those things that other married couples do. Put whatever label you want on it but it isn't a legal "marriage". Call it a legal civil union, legal partnership, legal cooperation, etc.



In the end, it seems to me that they only want to change the definition of marriage and that I am against.
 

Chief Walking Stick

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[quote name="the canadian dream"]Still amazes me that gay marriage is an issue with some people. Religious based or just a distraction away from real world issues. Whatever the reason there are bigger and better things to be protesting out there. Gays not going away people. Has always been and always will be. Even Jseus couldn't stop Billy fisherman from poking Ahab the clay plot maker. Or Mary the Carpenters wife from having a little lick lick with Dierdra the basket weaver. I'm not 100% sure if Jesus even tried to stop it or wanted to try to. Even he knew there were bigger and real issues out there to be concerned with.



Gay is gay. No homemade sign is going to stop it and no screaming at the top of your lungs in a church is going to slow it down. Lets get out priorities straight and maybe those issues that need attending will get attending. Those who protest gay marrigae are just lazy and affraid of putting their arms up for a real cause. Not one anti-gay marriage argument has even made sense and not one has ever been proposed which wasn't riddled in hypocracy and ill research. Pathetic. All arguments against gay marriage are pathetic. Made by pathetic people and their pathetic lives.



End of story.[/quote]



Close this thread now, this man has spoken the truth and that is all.
 

CLWolf81

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[quote name="jaxhawksfan"]I have refrained from offering my opinion in this thread, but since some of you are genuinely curious I'll offer this up.......



The DEFINITION of marriage is a joining of one man and one woman. When you start tinkering with that definition you are opening the door to more future changes of the definition and that could lead to man marries dog, woman marries 3 women, man marries horse or any other ridiculous sceniario.



There are only two facets to marriage: legal and religious. We won't discuss religious here because it doesn't fit the topic. Legally, gay couples already have the same rights as anyone else. You want to make "power of attorney" decisions for your partner, then draw up a living will or sign power of attorney. Want to include them on your insurance? There are at least 4 major insurance carriers in EVERY SINGLE ONE of our 50 states that will cover a domestic partner. Want to pay the marriage tax? I would only ask why.



The issue gets skewed in the media like all others. You always hear about the CHAMPION case of the hospital in Miami that didn't allow the gay partner to make decisions or see the other person as they died. The person had a legal right (to my understanding) because they had power of attorney to make medical decisions. A couple people at the hospital acted inappropriately in the situation. The hospital was sued. If it hasn't been to court yet, the hospital will lose. End of that story.



As many of you in the health industry know, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference if you are family or not, the hospital can deny you visitation for many reasons. Being "married" whether gay or straight doesn't change that. I have first hand experience with my father being kicked out of the room on a couple different occasions at the hospital.



There is my explanation. I have many gay friends and I think gay people should be allowed to love and express love to whoever they choose. Nobody can stop a person from loving another person if that is what they choose to do. Have a ceremony, invite your friends to join in your love for each other. Give and receive gifts, move in together. Buy a home together and live happily ever after. Have a joint bank account. Buy pets. Do all those things that other married couples do. Put whatever label you want on it but it isn't a legal "marriage". Call it a legal civil union, legal partnership, legal cooperation, etc.



In the end, it seems to me that they only want to change the definition of marriage and that I am against.[/quote]



There's only one little ticker I have about this... You can still call it something else, anything else, but it still is this so-called "definition of marriage" as a result. In other words, "If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, chances are, its still a duck."



The reason why gay people want that so-called "definition of marriage" is because it is a confirmation of everything. In other words, we won't feel like equals to straight people until that confirmation is upheld. Many, including myself, feel that we're second class citizens, even though I was born and raised in the USA.



It is because of that neglecting of said confirmation that forces everyone else to be "against" the power of attorney, including the hospitals. You see, unless they are actually "married" (call it a blt sandwich if you want, I dont care.), there will always be that intolerance and misunderstanding of said parties.



The only argument stated here is the fear of the direction of tolerance in this country.



We just want the simple things that normal married couples have... and that is the ability to have the "American Dream" like they do... and as crazy as it sounds, it also includes this "definition of marriage." I'll give it the exception to the rule, though. That ceremony will not have to be accepted by any official religion, as per the rule of seperation of Church and State. They could be recognized in a government office instead.
 

Variable

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Well it's not just that. For all the people saying just have a civil union, it's not the same. And I don't mean it's not the same as in the "label" of it or the emotional feelings of it, the benefits of being in a legally recognized marriage by far outweigh those of being in a civil union. It's not even close to being equal. It's a joke saying "Well they can still have a civil union". No, it's not the same. It's incredibly limited. To get even somewhat close to the same kind of rights means paying extra whereas in a marriage it's not even a problem.



And the fucking bestiality/animal thing still won't go away will it? I'm not even gay and I find that offensive. Allowing gay marriage cannot EVER open the door to being able to marry an animal. A marriage is between two consenting adults. An animal is property. You know when they get to part of "Do you take this man as your blah blah blah..."? Well, an animal can't answer that. And that's where it ends. That argument is fucking ridiculous. Decades old backwards thinking. IT'S GONNA CHANGE EVERYTHING! No it's not. The whole world won't go gay and end life as we know it. Things change, ideas evolve, we can't be stuck in the past because a very vocal group of humanity can't get over the meaning of a word being changed.
 

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[quote name="CLWolf81"]



There's only one little ticker I have about this... You can still call it something else, anything else, but it still is this so-called "definition of marriage" as a result. In other words, "If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, chances are, its still a duck."



The reason why gay people want that so-called "definition of marriage" is because it is a confirmation of everything. In other words, we won't feel like equals to straight people until that confirmation is upheld. Many, including myself, feel that we're second class citizens, even though I was born and raised in the USA.



It is because of that neglecting of said confirmation that forces everyone else to be "against" the power of attorney, including the hospitals. You see, unless they are actually "married" (call it a blt sandwich if you want, I dont care.), there will always be that intolerance and misunderstanding of said parties.



The only argument stated here is the fear of the direction of tolerance in this country.



We just want the simple things that normal married couples have... and that is the ability to have the "American Dream" like they do... and as crazy as it sounds, it also includes this "definition of marriage." I'll give it the exception to the rule, though. That ceremony will not have to be accepted by any official religion, as per the rule of seperation of Church and State. They could be recognized in a government office instead.[/quote]



I hear what you are saying, I really do. Your first paragraph is EXACTLY what I am saying. If you know, and your partner knows in your heart that it is a "marriage" then why does it matter what other people call it? As far as being married and changing labels to feel like a first rate citizen I will ask this: Do you think black people (as a group) don't feel like second class citizens even though they now have all the other rights everyone else has? Can you please point out "rights" that married couples have that gay couples don't? Maybe I am missing some. (Other than the right to pay the marriage tax)
 

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[quote name="Variable"]Well it's not just that. For all the people saying just have a civil union, it's not the same. And I don't mean it's not the same as in the "label" of it or the emotional feelings of it, the benefits of being in a legally recognized marriage by far outweigh those of being in a civil union. It's not even close to being equal. It's a joke saying "Well they can still have a civil union". No, it's not the same. It's incredibly limited. To get even somewhat close to the same kind of rights means paying extra whereas in a marriage it's not even a problem.



And the fucking bestiality/animal thing still won't go away will it? I'm not even gay and I find that offensive. Allowing gay marriage cannot EVER open the door to being able to marry an animal. A marriage is between two consenting adults. An animal is property. You know when they get to part of "Do you take this man as your blah blah blah..."? Well, an animal can't answer that. And that's where it ends. That argument is fucking ridiculous. Decades old backwards thinking. IT'S GONNA CHANGE EVERYTHING! No it's not. The whole world won't go gay and end life as we know it. Things change, ideas evolve, we can't be stuck in the past because a very vocal group of humanity can't get over the meaning of a word being changed.[/quote]



So, Nostradamus, you wanna look into your crystal ball and tell me definitively what else is going to happen/not happen in the future? You think my slippery slope is laughable just as much as I think your naivite' is. Most rational people know that when you give the government an inch they take things 10,000 miles (or kilometers for you foreign folks). In other words: anything can happen and it is our responsibility to prevent it from the start, not to begin inching towards it.
 

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If you change the definition of marriage to a union between two persons, as opposed to a man and a woman, how in God's fuck do you get to legalized bestiality?



Draw the line please.....
 

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That one lady married the Eiffel Tower. Not sure how that works.
 

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[quote name="jaxhawksfan"]I hear what you are saying, I really do. Your first paragraph is EXACTLY what I am saying. If you know, and your partner knows in your heart that it is a "marriage" then why does it matter what other people call it? As far as being married and changing labels to feel like a first rate citizen I will ask this: Do you think black people (as a group) don't feel like second class citizens even though they now have all the other rights everyone else has? Can you please point out "rights" that married couples have that gay couples don't? Maybe I am missing some. (Other than the right to pay the marriage tax)[/quote]



To answer your questions:



- As crazy as this sounds, try being a gay black person. They receive treatment in the worst way, disliked by those of their own race due to being gay and from other people outside the gay world and even sometimes inside for being black. I may not be black, but I sense the tension around here in Chicago simply because they're both. I can never experience how they feel. Until gay blacks get accepted just for being black first, they're never going to feel the same way as others.



While gay people share similarities with blacks when it comes to history of civil rights (Gays have Stonewall. Blacks have MLK, Rosa Parks, etc.), they see it as an advancement in the history of the USA when it comes to equality towards others. There needs to be a higher level of tolerance in this country, as even gay men and women have done a lot for this country in many ways that people will never know or recognize.



- As a gay man, I know the big issues with my bf loom largely not on the marriage tax, but on the hospital scenarios, and the legal scenarios should my bf pass away. Frankly, I deserve every right as his own mother and father to be in that hospital room when he is ill and if he's ever on his deathbed. There are also rights in certain States in the USA that recognize gays and their relationships when it comes to obtaining certain benefits, but not all, that married couples obtain, and being in the hospital with their partner in their last hours is not one of them, oddly enough. Others do not recognize gay people or their partners entirely, which is very disturbing. This needs to change.
 

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[quote name="puckjim"]If you change the definition of marriage to a union between two persons, as opposed to a man and a woman, how in God's fuck do you get to legalized bestiality?



Draw the line please.....[/quote]



The line is already drawn. It says one man and one woman (husband and wife). You wanna change it now, it can be changed in the future again, simple as that. The definitionn of gay marriage is one person and another person. See, we already have the definitions set.
 

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[quote name="bri"]That one lady married the Eiffel Tower. Not sure how that works.[/quote]



I'm not sure either.
 

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[quote name="CLWolf81"]



To answer your questions:



- As crazy as this sounds, try being a gay black person. They receive treatment in the worst way, disliked by those of their own race due to being gay and from other people outside the gay world and even sometimes inside for being black. I may not be black, but I sense the tension around here in Chicago simply because they're both. I can never experience how they feel. Until gay blacks get accepted just for being black first, they're never going to feel the same way as others.



While gay people share similarities with blacks when it comes to history of civil rights (Gays have Stonewall. Blacks have MLK, Rosa Parks, etc.), they see it as an advancement in the history of the USA when it comes to equality towards others. There needs to be a higher level of tolerance in this country, as even gay men and women have done a lot for this country in many ways that people will never know or recognize.


- As a gay man, I know the big issues with my bf loom largely not on the marriage tax, but on the hospital scenarios, and the legal scenarios should my bf pass away. Frankly, I deserve every right as his own mother and father to be in that hospital room when he is ill and if he's ever on his deathbed. There are also rights in certain States in the USA that recognize gays and their relationships when it comes to obtaining certain benefits, but not all, that married couples obtain, and being in the hospital with their partner in their last hours is not one of them, oddly enough. Others do not recognize gay people or their partners entirely, which is very disturbing. This needs to change.[/quote]



I agree. That's why I chose the scenario of being a black person. My point about your last paragraph is that those are false arguments in most cases. A hospital reserves the right to deny ANYONE access to a room/person. It doesn't matter if you are family, related, gay, straight or purple. One way to combat the issue is to get legal rights by a living will or power of attorney. Legalizing a term "marriage" isn't going to do anything to make people who don't like gay people look at them any differently.
 

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[quote name="jaxhawksfan"]



So, Nostradamus, you wanna look into your crystal ball and tell me definitively what else is going to happen/not happen in the future? You think my slippery slope is laughable just as much as I think your naivite' is. Most rational people know that when you give the government an inch they take things 10,000 miles (or kilometers for you foreign folks). In other words: anything can happen and it is our responsibility to prevent it from the start, not to begin inching towards it.[/quote]



....We're talking about HUMAN BEINGS. People. Consenting human beings. You understand that right? I don't see the problem here.



Also I find it hilarious that of all the things the government does to take things too far, this imaginative issue is the line in the sand where HAVE to stop it at. Patriot Bill? Nah, we gotta git them terrorists. 2 gay guys want to get married? HOLY SHIT BALLS WE GOTTA STOP IT. It's gonna be like "1984" with how far the government will take this! ORGANIZE! Make signs! Megaphones! Hurry! For the children! FOR THE CHILDREN!
 

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[quote name="jaxhawksfan"]



The line is already drawn. It says one man and one woman (husband and wife). You wanna change it now, it can be changed in the future again, simple as that. The definitionn of gay marriage is one person and another person. See, we already have the definitions set.[/quote]



What???? Are you kidding????



How about the definition of MARRIAGE is between one person and another.



You only need one meaning. Not sure how you get to bestiality as the next step.



Kinda fucked up that you can, though.
 

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