Greatest team ever/Greatest bulls team ever

[scottiepippen1994]

Sp94 is the Richard Simmons of this group.

Thanks buddy.

I'm flattered to be compared to such a great man who has dedicated his life to helping millions.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k61AN4fynDM]Richard Simmons loves you - YouTube[/ame]

 

[97Bulls]

Jason Kidd's game wasn't built around scoring either...I believe Pippen's career could have been like that...only AFTER playing with Jordan. Kidd is a hall of famer and great point guard. He would have been better served playing with a better player.

Nobody compares Kidd to Magic...Kidd filled stat sheets too. Kidd was a great defender and a great, great ballhandler. But he could have used a great scorer...he wasn't capable of doing what Magic did, in my opinion. Neither was Scottie.

There is a difference in that pippen was never a bad scorer. He was in fact damn good. Kidd on the other hand, had the nickname "Ason Kidd". And benefitted from playing in that uptempo style with the nets. Not to mention the nets in my opinion weren't that good of a team from a championship perspective. They benifitted from playing in that weak eastern conference.

And you still fail to take into consideration the situations of players. As if jason kidd had the same talent around him as magic. I'm sure magic does no better in kidds situation. Think about what kidd had. The nets second best player was kenyon martin. Then richard jefferson, kerry kittles, todd mccalough. Magic had worthy, jabaar, scott, and green. Kenyon martin would be the fourth best player on the lakers.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

There is a difference in that pippen was never a bad scorer. He was in fact damn good. Kidd on the other hand, had the nickname "Ason Kidd". And benefitted from playing in that uptempo style with the nets. Not to mention the nets in my opinion weren't that good of a team from a championship perspective. They benifitted from playing in that weak eastern conference.

And you still fail to take into consideration the situations of players. As if jason kidd had the same talent around him as magic. I'm sure magic does no better in kidds situation. Think about what kidd had. The nets second best player was kenyon martin. Then richard jefferson, kerry kittles, todd mccalough. Magic had worthy, jabaar, scott, and green. Kenyon martin would be the fourth best player on the lakers.

Okay.

Pippen was undeniably a better scorer than Jason Kidd. But Kidd was undeniably a much, much better passer and playmaker. The rebounding between those two players largely cancels out (although Kidd was exceptional for the PG position). I'll definitely give a defensive edge to Pippen, although Kidd was also an elite defender who could guard both the 1 and 2 positions (and some 3's).

I'd say the two of those players (Kidd and Pippen) are very much on the same level. It would be a terribly difficult choice picking between those two players if you were running a team that needed a PG and a SF.

Pippen gave you a little bit of everything on offense and better defense than Kidd. Pippen had extra length to block shots and more size to work with than Kidd.

Kidd gave you a huge extra dimension with his court-vision and pin-point passing with defense/rebounding that was something unlike any other PG possessed in the league. Kidd gave you a little bit of scoring ability but no jump-shot worth mentioning.

I don't think anyone can really say indefinitely that one guy is better than the other overall.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

When it comes to Magic versus Kidd... Magic absolutely destroys Kidd head-to-head. He wasn't as good of a defender on the ball as Kidd but he could guard more positions.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

There is a difference in that pippen was never a bad scorer. He was in fact damn good. Kidd on the other hand, had the nickname "Ason Kidd". And benefitted from playing in that uptempo style with the nets. Not to mention the nets in my opinion weren't that good of a team from a championship perspective. They benifitted from playing in that weak eastern conference.

And you still fail to take into consideration the situations of players. As if jason kidd had the same talent around him as magic. I'm sure magic does no better in kidds situation. Think about what kidd had. The nets second best player was kenyon martin. Then richard jefferson, kerry kittles, todd mccalough. Magic had worthy, jabaar, scott, and green. Kenyon martin would be the fourth best player on the lakers.

Scottie Pippen would of been the best player on those Lakers teams and if Scottie was on those New Jersey Nets teams they would of won a championship....honestly and seriously.

[/URL] GIFSoup[/IMG]

 

[houheffna]

There is a difference in that pippen was never a bad scorer. He was in fact damn good. Kidd on the other hand, had the nickname "Ason Kidd". And benefitted from playing in that uptempo style with the nets. Not to mention the nets in my opinion weren't that good of a team from a championship perspective. They benifitted from playing in that weak eastern conference.

And you still fail to take into consideration the situations of players. As if jason kidd had the same talent around him as magic. I'm sure magic does no better in kidds situation. Think about what kidd had. The nets second best player was kenyon martin. Then richard jefferson, kerry kittles, todd mccalough. Magic had worthy, jabaar, scott, and green. Kenyon martin would be the fourth best player on the lakers.

I don't think you can put Pippen or Kidd with Jabbar, Worthy and Scott and beat the Celtics back then. Magic is a big improvement over Pippen and Kidd.

And yes, the conference was weak...that is how Kidd dominated. It would have had to be the same with Pippen in my opinion. You couldn't put a Pippen led team in a stacked conference, like the West over the past decade and he win a title over guys like Kobe, Duncan and Dirk Nowtizki.

Speaking of benefiting...when does Michael Jordan get credit for Scottie's improvements? Scottie benefited from playing with Jordan...Kidd had no such player to play with. You don't think Kidd...who was naturally more talented than Pippen, could have benefited across the board from playing with Jordan? ANY player would have.

 

[97Bulls]

I don't think you can put Pippen or Kidd with Jabbar, Worthy and Scott and beat the Celtics back then. Magic is a big improvement over Pippen and Kidd.

And yes, the conference was weak...that is how Kidd dominated. It would have had to be the same with Pippen in my opinion. You couldn't put a Pippen led team in a stacked conference, like the West over the past decade and he win a title over guys like Kobe, Duncan and Dirk Nowtizki.

Speaking of benefiting...when does Michael Jordan get credit for Scottie's improvements? Scottie benefited from playing with Jordan...Kidd had no such player to play with. You don't think Kidd...who was naturally more talented than Pippen, could have benefited across the board from playing with Jordan? ANY player would have.

The west was weak in the 80s. Terribly weak as a matter of fact. And you keep looking at this as if every player has the same talent arround them. Then, don't take into consideration that the players you mentioned had the best team during the time they won.

 

[97Bulls]

Okay.

Pippen was undeniably a better scorer than Jason Kidd. But Kidd was undeniably a much, much better passer and playmaker. The rebounding between those two players largely cancels out (although Kidd was exceptional for the PG position). I'll definitely give a defensive edge to Pippen, although Kidd was also an elite defender who could guard both the 1 and 2 positions (and some 3's).

I'd say the two of those players (Kidd and Pippen) are very much on the same level. It would be a terribly difficult choice picking between those two players if you were running a team that needed a PG and a SF.

Pippen gave you a little bit of everything on offense and better defense than Kidd. Pippen had extra length to block shots and more size to work with than Kidd.

Kidd gave you a huge extra dimension with his court-vision and pin-point passing with defense/rebounding that was something unlike any other PG possessed in the league. Kidd gave you a little bit of scoring ability but no jump-shot worth mentioning.

I don't think anyone can really say indefinitely that one guy is better than the other overall.

Lol I can. Kidds best FG% in his career during his prime was 44%. He routinely shot high 30%/low 40%. Which is atrocious. Especially considering the offense the nets ran and the fact that a lot of his shots came in transition. For someone that puts such a premium on scoring id think you'd definately give the nod to pippen. But thhen again consider the source. A pippen hater

 

[97Bulls]

I think I see why heff feels the way he does. He feels that since pippen spent the bulk of his career behind jordan, that's all he ever could've been. Jason Kidd and Scottie Pippen never led a team to a championship, because they couldn't, not because they didn't have sufficient help.

Sports aren't made up like that heff. All players take different roads to get to where they are. You give magic and jordan a lot of credit for winning (which you should) but fail to put theeir situations in perspective. And trying to determine who is better between great players is never an exact science. Do you remember the Lou Gherig story? You know how he got his start? It was because the yankees starting 1st basemen, Wally Pipp, was injured. That's the only reason. If pipp never gets injured, gherig probably wastes his career as a backup.

That's why I say you can't just go soouly by players ccareer when making certain comparisons. Some players are just fortunate to be in great situations, some are a vicem of circumstance. Look at Magic Johnson. He's a classic case of a player that was able to start at 3rd base and act as if he hit the triple. He never been on a bad team. He never had to start at the bottom. He even admitted that the only reason he came out early was because he had a chance to join kareem and the lakers. Even going so far as to say that if the jazz won the 1st pick, he would've went back to michigan.

 

[houheffna]

I think I see why heff feels the way he does. He feels that since pippen spent the bulk of his career behind jordan, that's all he ever could've been. Jason Kidd and Scottie Pippen never led a team to a championship, because they couldn't, not because they didn't have sufficient help.

Sports aren't made up like that heff. All players take different roads to get to where they are. You give magic and jordan a lot of credit for winning (which you should) but fail to put theeir situations in perspective. And trying to determine who is better between great players is never an exact science. Do you remember the Lou Gherig story? You know how he got his start? It was because the yankees starting 1st basemen, Wally Pipp, was injured. That's the only reason. If pipp never gets injured, gherig probably wastes his career as a backup.

That's why I say you can't just go soouly by players ccareer when making certain comparisons. Some players are just fortunate to be in great situations, some are a vicem of circumstance. Look at Magic Johnson. He's a classic case of a player that was able to start at 3rd base and act as if he hit the triple. He never been on a bad team. He never had to start at the bottom. He even admitted that the only reason he came out early was because he had a chance to join kareem and the lakers. Even going so far as to say that if the jazz won the 1st pick, he would've went back to michigan.

Once again, you eviscerate an all time great player so you can canonize Pippen. I am not talking about supporting casts...I am talking about capabilities. You avoid the fact that I stated that if you take out Magic and put Pippen on those Lakers teams...you don't beat the Boston Celtics.

I feel that Pippen proved while playing with Pippen that he was where he was supposed to be. When I watched Kobe with Shaq I never said, Kobe belongs where he is...I knew Kobe was a guy who could be the best player in the league. He played at that high of a level. Even with Shaq, Kobe scored 30 a game. Look at what Magic did when Kareem sustained an injury. 42 points as a rookie! And he played center! That is what franchise players do. Pippen never did anything like that. So your analogy of Magic standing on 3rd base acting as if he hit a triple is way off base. Are you not the same guy who uses championships as one measure to put Pippen and Rodman over Barkley? Magic wanted to win, just as Isiah wanted to play for the Bulls and didn't want to go to Detroit. Some get their way, others don't.

By the way, Pippen was standing on 3rd base when he signed to play with the Bulls. I would take playing with a 24 year old Jordan over playing with a 32 year old Jabbar.

Field goal percentage is like batting average in baseball. You are stuck in the stone ages. If I tell you Iverson was a better scorer than Pippen, after watching the two play...you would disagree based on field goal percentage? Never mind the fact that Iverson was one of the great scoring guards in history...never mind that Pippen was an atrocious free throw shooter.

And I don't get the Lou Gehrig reference either. We don't know what happens with Gehrig...we don't know if they try to move him, or if he learns another position...you don't know what would have happened in that case. I can tell you that after 1 season as the guy in Chicago, Krause tried to trade him.

 

[nwfisch]

I thought we all agreed that Pippen could have been more than he was with the Bulls, but I believe that there is a 90% chance that Pippen would have likely fell flat on his face in comparsion to the successes he had with the Bulls.

 

[houheffna]

I thought we all agreed that Pippen could have been more than he was with the Bulls, but I believe that there is a 90% chance that Pippen would have likely fell flat on his face in comparsion to the successes he had with the Bulls.

My opinion is had he never played with Jordan, Pippen would be about as famous as Derrick McKey...

 

[scottiepippen1994]

Derrick Mckey????????? That's a little overboard bro.....that's really underrating someone to the fullest degree.......using language like that proves how you feel about Pip...and that's okay, you just don't like the guy.....I havnt said much on this thread since yesturday because it has become pointless....everyne here has decided how they feel about Pip and no one is convincing anyone, so I have left this alone, but Derrick Mckey?????, that's where I had to step in because that is way out of line..........Pippen no matter where he played would not be Derrick Mckey.....That's like saying if Will Perdue played somewhere else, he would of been Sikma.....

 

[97Bulls]

Once again, you eviscerate an all time great player so you can canonize Pippen. I am not talking about supporting casts...I am talking about capabilities. You avoid the fact that I stated that if you take out Magic and put Pippen on those Lakers teams...you don't beat the Boston Celtics.

I feel that Pippen proved while playing with Pippen that he was where he was supposed to be. When I watched Kobe with Shaq I never said, Kobe belongs where he is...I knew Kobe was a guy who could be the best player in the league.
But he failed miserably with average support. While pippen thrived. That's where we just can't seem to agree. Its rare for a player to get recognition (MVPs, etc) when they're the best player on bad teams. In fact, there's an unwritten rule that if your team isn't top 3 record-wise, you don't qualify mvp consideration. No player has ever won an mvp without being on a team that was top 3 record-wise.


He played at that high of a level. Even with Shaq, Kobe scored 30 a game. Look at what Magic did when Kareem sustained an injury. 42 points as a rookie! And he played center! That is what franchise players do. Pippen never did anything like that.
What about when he took over the reigns for jordan and kept the bulls in contention? That game Magic played as a rookie was impressive. But it was one game. Stranger things have happened


So your analogy of Magic standing on 3rd base acting as if he hit a triple is way off base. Are you not the same guy who uses championships as one measure to put Pippen and Rodman over Barkley? Magic wanted to win, just as Isiah wanted to play for the Bulls and didn't want to go to Detroit. Some get their way, others don't.
No. I said that Barkley never maximized his talent due to a bad work ethic and because he was unwilling to take defense seriously. It has nothing to do with championships. Although his suns team had the homecourt advantage vs the bulls and he couldn't get it done.

By the way, Pippen was standing on 3rd base when he signed to play with the Bulls. I would take playing with a 24 year old Jordan over playing with a 32 year old Jabbar.
I don't see how, pippen didn't join a team that was in contention for championships like magic. He took just as many lumps as jordan.


Field goal percentage is like batting average in baseball. You are stuck in the stone ages. If I tell you Iverson was a better scorer than Pippen, after watching the two play...you would disagree based on field goal percentage? Never mind the fact that Iverson was one of the great scoring guards in history...never mind that Pippen was an atrocious free throw shooter.
Lol I'm in the stoneages? The nba still acknowledges FG%. And I'm glad you brought up pippens FT%. He was a bad FT shooter. Its what kept him from being a 24 ppg scorer. So I do agree with that


And I don't get the Lou Gehrig reference either. We don't know what happens with Gehrig...we don't know if they try to move him, or if he learns another position...you don't know what would have happened in that case.
We do know that he was the backup once the season started, and that once the starter was injured and he took his place, he never relinquished it and went on to a hof career and is regarded as one of the greatest baseball players ever. And it ties in to pippen because unlike gherig, pippen never got a legitimate chance to showcase his ability to lead. And he mayve fell on his face. But if what he did in 94 and 95 is any indication, he would've succeeded

I can tell you that after 1 season as the guy in Chicago, Krause tried to trade him.

And jerry krause is an idiot. He also broke up a championship team cuz his feelings were hurt. He was never serious about building around pippen. Not to mention all the players that left chicago because they didn't get along with him. Jordan, jackson, pippen, grant, brian williams, scott williams. Using him is a terrible example. Krause didn't want to trade pippen cuz he felt he wasn't good enough, he wanted pippen gone cuz he didn't like him

 

[scottiepippen1994]

And jerry krause is an idiot. He also broke up a championship team cuz his feelings were hurt. He was never serious about building around pippen. Not to mention all the players that left chicago because they didn't get along with him. Jordan, jackson, pippen, grant, brian williams, scott williams. Using him is a terrible example.

Letting Grant and Williams go was a big mistake........And as far as Brian Williams, I thought he was an awsome fit for the Bulls his 1 year on the team....Who knows, Brian might have been still living if not for krause.....Just like on back to the future, one change can alter the whole time space continuum...He might have been in Chicago instead of retiring early in Detroit and probably wouldn't have been on the ocean with his physcho brother...

 

[houheffna]

And jerry krause is an idiot. He also broke up a championship team cuz his feelings were hurt. He was never serious about building around pippen. Not to mention all the players that left chicago because they didn't get along with him. Jordan, jackson, pippen, grant, brian williams, scott williams. Using him is a terrible example.

!. The Lakers were not contending for a championship before Magic got there...they would win 47 games the year before with Kareem and less than that the year before. They were not contenders.

2. You call that Magic game "strange"...but what Scottie did was a miracle? Look at that Atlanta Hawks team. And I give Phil Jackson as much credit for that team as anybody. They had a system, the same players and the same coaches that would win titles 3 years before. And they also had 2 all stars. The league wasn't that great overall and the Bulls fit right in with other over-achieving teams that season. Again, what Magic did in 1991 surpasses what Pippen did in 1994. It really isn't much of a debate. And whatever leadership abilities Pippen had, he acquired from playing with Jordan...though he collapsed under pressure in the playoffs too. Show me one time where Magic Johnson did that.

3. Your thinking on Barkley is obtuse...being that he was a top 5 player for the bulk of his career. You knock Barkley for his defense...but you don't knock Pippen for shooting 67% from the free throw line for whole seasons? Barkley trumps Pippen hands down. Barkley was a freak of nature, your saying he should have been a perimeter player when he is a hall of fame power forward with a post game and a league leading rebounder, speaks to your naivete on the subject.

4. "The league acknowledges FG%" means what exactly? The MLB acknowledges batting averages...but its not indicative of the impact a player has on a game. Your looking at Kobe's fg% is laughable. Kobe's skill level was evident.

5. Show me one time where Krause tried to trade Jordan...if he is such an idiot, maybe that would have happened. Krause built those teams and should go to the Hall of Fame. And that trade fell through because Pippen wasn't worth it to Seattle.

 

[houheffna]

Letting Grant and Williams go was a big mistake........And as far as Brian Williams, I thought he was an awsome fit for the Bulls his 1 year on the team....Who knows, Brian might have been still living if not for krause.....Just like on back to the future, one change can alter the whole time space continuum...He might have been in Chicago instead of retiring early in Detroit and probably wouldn't have been on the ocean with his physcho brother...

Grant was a Reinsdorf issue, not Krause. And Williams played for nothing and wanted to earn a contract that the Bulls couldn't pay him.

 

[houheffna]

Derrick Mckey????????? That's a little overboard bro.....that's really underrating someone to the fullest degree.......using language like that proves how you feel about Pip...and that's okay, you just don't like the guy.....I havnt said much on this thread since yesturday because it has become pointless....everyne here has decided how they feel about Pip and no one is convincing anyone, so I have left this alone, but Derrick Mckey?????, that's where I had to step in because that is way out of line..........Pippen no matter where he played would not be Derrick Mckey.....That's like saying if Will Perdue played somewhere else, he would of been Sikma.....

McKey was a very talented player who was drafted high and didn't leave up to advance billing. That very well could have been the case with Pippen, Pippen became a star for one reason...he played with Jordan, and he played on the big stage. Pippen became a great player because he played with the greatest ever.

And please don't put words in my mouth...I don't froth over Pippen, doesn't mean I didn't like him as a player.

 

[97Bulls]

!. The Lakers were not contending for a championship before Magic got there...they would win 47 games the year before with Kareem and less than that the year before. They were not contenders.

2. You call that Magic game "strange"...but what Scottie did was a miracle? Look at that Atlanta Hawks team. And I give Phil Jackson as much credit for that team as anybody. They had a system, the same players and the same coaches that would win titles 3 years before. And they also had 2 all stars. The league wasn't that great overall and the Bulls fit right in with other over-achieving teams that season. Again, what Magic did in 1991 surpasses what Pippen did in 1994. It really isn't much of a debate. And whatever leadership abilities Pippen had, he acquired from playing with Jordan...though he collapsed under pressure in the playoffs too. Show me one time where Magic Johnson did that.

3. Your thinking on Barkley is obtuse...being that he was a top 5 player for the bulk of his career. You knock Barkley for his defense...but you don't knock Pippen for shooting 67% from the free throw line for whole seasons? Barkley trumps Pippen hands down. Barkley was a freak of nature, your saying he should have been a perimeter player when he is a hall of fame power forward with a post game and a league leading rebounder, speaks to your naivete on the subject.

4. "The league acknowledges FG%" means what exactly? The MLB acknowledges batting averages...but its not indicative of the impact a player has on a game. Your looking at Kobe's fg% is laughable. Kobe's skill level was evident.

5. Show me one time where Krause tried to trade Jordan...if he is such an idiot, maybe that would have happened. Krause built those teams and should go to the Hall of Fame. And that trade fell through because Pippen wasn't worth it to Seattle.

Go back about 3 years. They won 47 games the year before, 45 in 78 (with kareem missing 20 games), and 53 in 77 which was good for the best record in the league. And kareem was the best player in the league.

And I never called that game magic scored 40 pts "strange" lol. What I meant was that its a lot easier to rally the troops for one game as opposed to doing it on a nightly basis for the duration on 82 games.


And what wrong with me using FG%? If the league acknowledeges FG% then why is it not a feasible way to determine a players "impact". Not saying advanced stats are good too. But no stat tells the whole story.

You call call my view on barkley backwards if you want, but we all have our opinions. I've acknowledged barkley was a great player. But I feel he could've been better. I mean, if he plays defense at a high level, to go along with his scoring ability and rebounding you don't think he would be a better player? And what's more is that he saw it as a joke. I can't tell you how much respect I lost for him when he said as long as larry bird was still in the league, he wouldn't be the worst defender in the league. If I was his GM and heard that, I would've traded his ass that same day. Let him go somewhere else and get his 40 pts and 18 rbds with an L.

And I've also admitted pippen should've been a better ft shooter. Go back and reread my post before this one. I said his inabilty to hit Fts is what kept him from being a 23-24 ppg scorer.

And that trade fell through because jordan saidd if pippen was traded, he would retire. And I guarntee you if he traded jordan, he would've been shot that very same day. He didn't want jordan there either. It was reinsdorf that stepped in and kept that team together. If krause had it his way, he would've traded jordan too.

 

[97Bulls]

Derrick Mckey????????? That's a little overboard bro.....that's really underrating someone to the fullest degree.......using language like that proves how you feel about Pip...and that's okay, you just don't like the guy.....I havnt said much on this thread since yesturday because it has become pointless....everyne here has decided how they feel about Pip and no one is convincing anyone, so I have left this alone, but Derrick Mckey?????, that's where I had to step in because that is way out of line..........Pippen no matter where he played would not be Derrick Mckey.....That's like saying if Will Perdue played somewhere else, he would of been Sikma.....

You must consider the source. I'm not surprised at all. He has no respect for pippens talent and what's more is he has no respect for the road pippen took to become a hofer. And I'm still trying to figure out, if jordan could take a journeymen caliber player and turn him into arguably a top 5 SF all-time and hofer, why couldn't he do this with anyone else? Especially brad sellers. Who in all honestly was very talented. But the bulls tried to make him something he wasn't.

How many teammates has jordan had? 100s id assume. Why could he only make 1 better?