Haslem for Hinrich

dougthonus

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PJ Brown wrote:
Haslem for Hinrich was a deal I considered an option last year, after the Bulls drafted Rose and the Heat drafted Beasley. I'm less inclined to do the deal now that Kirk dealt with his situation so well. Bottom line is the Bulls probably won't even entertain deals for Kirk until Ben is dealt with, but once Ben is signed up, I'd probably re-visit this one. I'd hope we can do better, but we could certainly do worse.

I would only consider this deal if we needed to deal Kirk to get Ben back. It's not a good talent deal for us, but for a cash saving deal and a roster fit deal I think it does quite well.

You're not going to get more for Kirk (IMO anyway) in a deal that saves money.
 

Fred

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dunkside.com wrote:
paging dr fred. paging dr fred. we have a kirk fanboy on the loose.
and when you come, please bring some strong sedatives for me. i will need them after slamming my head into the wall for the next half an hour.

Dunkside, I had a 2 hour surgery on Steve T. Gorches yesterday before I realized the patient is incurable. We need to focus on those who still can be helped.

But I'll try to write a prescription:
Take 2 aspirin, drink lots of water, get 8 hours of sleep, and read my "Hinrich's Good But Not Great" article (Written BEFORE the Kirk Trainwreck season of 2007-08 and the lucky Kansas victory over Rose's Memphis team).
http://blog.chicagobullseye.com/2007/09/19/hinrichs-good-but-not-great.aspx

Kirk had a solid comeback year this year, but I'd take Haslem in a second for him. Miller isn't the youngest guy in the world. Haslem will be 29 in June, and I love the anger and defense he would bring to the frontcourt.

Even if Gordon didn't sign, I would still be up for it. Do you have to trade Tyrus, Doug, to make this trade? I'd be more inclined to keep Tyrus if Ben walks.

Rose
Salmons
Deng
Frontcourt combo:
Tyrus, Haslem
Noah, Miller
 

TheStig

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dougthonus wrote:

I traded TT for salary cap space to afford to sign my draft picks and stay under the luxury tax.
Yikes, the disease sounds worse than the cure. We traded TT and kirk effectively for Haslem and a little cap space. Thats a horrible return on talent and doesn't really add any wins. And trading TT for cap space clears more room than the Kirk for Haslem deal. Not to mention the fact that niether draft pick will have as big of an impact as either kirk or TT. Yes we keep BG, but there are other options and this sounds pretty harsh to happen sooner than september or october.

I like having Kirk around, but I don't like having anyone around who makes 9 million a year on average and plays 25 solid minutes a game. That's too much for a 25 minute per game player. Kirk is good enough to play more minutes just not on this team.
Agreed, but he fits his role perfectly and will expire at the same time Rose needs a new deal. Plus without him we have no depth at PG and if rose gets injured at all, we are dead in the water. He is also the only real leader on this team atm.



Agreed. That's of course, always my first choice.
Lets hope it becomes reality.


Maybe you're right and we trade JJ + a 1st to a team for cap space if we want to keep Gordon, though if we do that it eliminates any realistic possibility of trading for a star at the deadline.
Why does it eliminate any chance? We still have Miller and Tim Thomas's expiring deals that add up to almost 19 Million. If anything, when we lose TT we will lose our token prospect to throw in.
 

TheStig

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PJ Brown wrote:
Haslem for Hinrich was a deal I considered an option last year, after the Bulls drafted Rose and the Heat drafted Beasley. I'm less inclined to do the deal now that Kirk dealt with his situation so well. Bottom line is the Bulls probably won't even entertain deals for Kirk until Ben is dealt with, but once Ben is signed up, I'd probably re-visit this one. I'd hope we can do better, but we could certainly do worse.
Why would Miami consider it last year? Haslem was their starting center and only proven NBA quality center. Were you hoping they started Blount or Magloire instead?
 

Fred

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I posted this on another thread, but everyone seems to be reading this one. And the silence is making me think I'm really crazy.

Call me crazy, but I've begun to think that Tyrus might be better off playing during the 3 one day. Am I crazy? Is it crazier then Jerry Krause telling me that Tyson Chandler could play the 3 on the night he was drafted? Defintely less crazy, but still crazy?

This revelation happened during 3 events:

1. Tyrus played some unbelieveable D on LeBron in our victory over the Cavs at home this year. I attended that game with the Great One, and Doug can confirm this. The Cavs kept playing pick and roll to get LeBron that matchup, and Tyrus did a really fine job on him. He's a much better one on one defender. He's not good fundamentally on the boards defensively, but his athleticism helps to negate athletic 3's.

2. I've seen an improvement in his ballhandling. Can he improve his ballhandling another notch this offseason? I think if you tell him he's going to get some more minutes at the 3, he would try to work on it. I just get the vibe that he would rather play on the perimeter than down low. It's actually kind of obvious on the offensive end. Luol Deng is not a great ballhandler. Can Tyrus catch up to him in one summer?

3. He's kind of undersized against the bigger power forwards, but he's oversized against the vast majority of 3's.

This could be the dumbest idea I've ever had. Please tell me yes or no.
 

TheStig

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Fred wrote:
I posted this on another thread, but everyone seems to be reading this one. And the silence is making me think I'm really crazy.

Call me crazy, but I've begun to think that Tyrus might be better off playing during the 3 one day. Am I crazy? Is it crazier then Jerry Krause telling me that Tyson Chandler could play the 3 on the night he was drafted? Defintely less crazy, but still crazy?

This revelation happened during 3 events:

1. Tyrus played some unbelieveable D on LeBron in our victory over the Cavs at home this year. I attended that game with the Great One, and Doug can confirm this. The Cavs kept playing pick and roll to get LeBron that matchup, and Tyrus did a really fine job on him. He's a much better one on one defender. He's not good fundamentally on the boards defensively, but his athleticism helps to negate athletic 3's.

2. I've seen an improvement in his ballhandling. Can he improve his ballhandling another notch this offseason? I think if you tell him he's going to get some more minutes at the 3, he would try to work on it. I just get the vibe that he would rather play on the perimeter than down low. It's actually kind of obvious on the offensive end. Luol Deng is not a great ballhandler. Can Tyrus catch up to him in one summer?

3. He's kind of undersized against the bigger power forwards, but he's oversized against the vast majority of 3's.

This could be the dumbest idea I've ever had. Please tell me yes or no.
Wasn't it Fizer that was supposed to play the three not Chandler? TT can't play the 3, he is way to rough out there and would foul out rather quickly. I know you are trying to recreate an AK type effect but I don't see it happening and I don't see it really working too well for the real AK. IMO TT looks like a awesome bench player in the league that can play a huge energy role. If he can improve his defense and other mental lapses he can still be a star in this league but he just doesn't have a grip at all on the offensive end. And outside of a few blocks, he doesn't really have a grip on the defensive end. It is entirely mental for him and if he can get his head in the game, he will be good.

As to your points
1. A couple of minutes as a change of pace doesn't mark a perimeter defender. He is way to jumpy on the defensive end and if he were capable of playing the 3 at all, we would have used him to back up Salmons against the celtics.

2. There is a huge difference between how much a pf dribbles and distributes the ball and a sf does. SF's are responsible for handling the ball quite a bit and we just gasp when ever he dribbles.

3.I'll agree, he has the perfect frame to play the sf postion but so do a lot of people in the world who don't play basketball. And at this point TT is a freak of nature, not a basketball player.

New point. SF's need a jump shot and well, TT can't consistently hit a 15 footer, let alone a three. TT also doesn't really have the handles to drive by a pf let alone a sf who will strip him and he has no post up game to post up sfs. What exactly is he going to do on the offensive end?
 

RC_Skinny22

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The key on your idea is, like you said, his ballhandling. The Bulls are very good on their fast break game. And Rose shows perfectly what an athletic player can do in fast break plays. I like the idea but whom would you prefer to trade? With Salmons, Gordon, Hinrich, Tim Thomas, maybe Deng and Tyrus Thomas we have too many players who can play the 3. Oh yeah what about Hunter (will he retire or play next season?)and Roberson?

This offseason is going to be very interesting. I like the team right now. I would be sad to give Gordon, Hinrich or Tyrus away but it seems like somebody has to go.
 

PJ Brown

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TheStig wrote:
PJ Brown wrote:
Haslem for Hinrich was a deal I considered an option last year, after the Bulls drafted Rose and the Heat drafted Beasley. I'm less inclined to do the deal now that Kirk dealt with his situation so well. Bottom line is the Bulls probably won't even entertain deals for Kirk until Ben is dealt with, but once Ben is signed up, I'd probably re-visit this one. I'd hope we can do better, but we could certainly do worse.
Why would Miami consider it last year? Haslem was their starting center and only proven NBA quality center. Were you hoping they started Blount or Magloire instead?

Miami was also in need of a PG, and one would have to think Kirk would look very nice next to Wade. That said, all I wrote was that I thought about it; I never argued it was a slam dunk or that I would've even done it. I would have abandoned it from the Bulls perspective once it was clear that Gordon's extension wasn't a given, as we needed to hold onto Kirk as an insurance policy.
 

kukoc4ever

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Haslem seems to be declining, but I'd pick keeping Gordon over Hinrich so I'd be in favor of it, if one of the two has to go and this truly is the best deal out there.

I had high hopes for TT. But I've seen absolutely nothing out of him, other than small spurts, that he isn't basically basketball Special person. He makes some incredible plays at times and at times he's very productive. But, unless he improves his basic understanding of the game of basketball, he isn't a guy you want to lock up long term for big money. He's still a project.
 

dougthonus

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Yikes, the disease sounds worse than the cure. We traded TT and kirk effectively for Haslem and a little cap space. Thats a horrible return on talent and doesn't really add any wins. And trading TT for cap space clears more room than the Kirk for Haslem deal. Not to mention the fact that niether draft pick will have as big of an impact as either kirk or TT. Yes we keep BG, but there are other options and this sounds pretty harsh to happen sooner than september or october.

I traded Kirk + Tyrus for Haslem + Gordon in my example. I think if you move TT for nothing, you need to bring in another big man obviously. If you bring back Gordon, you need to clear out one of Salmons/Kirk/Deng (and we probably can't move Deng).

The idea here is that you are left with a balanced roster after both moves, and you have the flexibility to still sign your draft picks and build toward the future as well. It's not a perfect plan though.
 

dougthonus

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Why does it eliminate any chance? We still have Miller and Tim Thomas's expiring deals that add up to almost 19 Million. If anything, when we lose TT we will lose our token prospect to throw in.

The primary thing isn't expiring deals to match salary, it's the instant savings provided by Jerome James insurance. If a star is traded, that will be like giving a team a huge influx of cash. We don't really have good prospects to give a team. Tyrus is a RFA at the end of the season, no team is going to view him as having much value in a trade.
 

dougthonus

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Fred wrote:
I posted this on another thread, but everyone seems to be reading this one. And the silence is making me think I'm really crazy.

Call me crazy, but I've begun to think that Tyrus might be better off playing during the 3 one day. Am I crazy? Is it crazier then Jerry Krause telling me that Tyson Chandler could play the 3 on the night he was drafted? Defintely less crazy, but still crazy?

This revelation happened during 3 events:

1. Tyrus played some unbelieveable D on LeBron in our victory over the Cavs at home this year. I attended that game with the Great One, and Doug can confirm this. The Cavs kept playing pick and roll to get LeBron that matchup, and Tyrus did a really fine job on him. He's a much better one on one defender. He's not good fundamentally on the boards defensively, but his athleticism helps to negate athletic 3's.

2. I've seen an improvement in his ballhandling. Can he improve his ballhandling another notch this offseason? I think if you tell him he's going to get some more minutes at the 3, he would try to work on it. I just get the vibe that he would rather play on the perimeter than down low. It's actually kind of obvious on the offensive end. Luol Deng is not a great ballhandler. Can Tyrus catch up to him in one summer?

3. He's kind of undersized against the bigger power forwards, but he's oversized against the vast majority of 3's.

This could be the dumbest idea I've ever had. Please tell me yes or no.

I don't think the ball handling is that bad, but can you imagine the spacing of the floor if Tyrus is a 3?

You're so big on floor spacing that it's hard for me to believe you're considering this. A 3 can typically at least do a dribble drive jumper, a pull up jumper, have a great mid range shot and a good mid range shot. Tyrus can do none of these. He's still dicey on the catch and shoot mid range 2 let alone the one step dribble jumper or the pull up.

You'd be inviting a quadruple team on Rose every time he drives, because only the SG would be left to score.
 

TheStig

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dougthonus wrote:
Why does it eliminate any chance? We still have Miller and Tim Thomas's expiring deals that add up to almost 19 Million. If anything, when we lose TT we will lose our token prospect to throw in.

The primary thing isn't expiring deals to match salary, it's the instant savings provided by Jerome James insurance. If a star is traded, that will be like giving a team a huge influx of cash. We don't really have good prospects to give a team. Tyrus is a RFA at the end of the season, no team is going to view him as having much value in a trade.
I understand your point but JJ's contract still hits the cap, so it won't get teams paying the LT under. So I can see the benefit of not actually paying the player, but most of the teams trading the stars are over the LT by more than 5 million, espically with the cap going down this year. And when you get to the trade deadline, you are only talking about 2 million dollars. I don't think its going to be the deal breaker because team like okc and memphis have no shot at one of these guys going there, Detroit is dicey and Portland has said they aren't interested in trading LA. Detroit IMO is our biggest competition and I don't think anyone really wants to go there. So, it doesn't mean much and we might be able to salary dump Tim Thomas instead of JJ in my scenario.
 

TheStig

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dougthonus wrote:
Yikes, the disease sounds worse than the cure. We traded TT and kirk effectively for Haslem and a little cap space. Thats a horrible return on talent and doesn't really add any wins. And trading TT for cap space clears more room than the Kirk for Haslem deal. Not to mention the fact that niether draft pick will have as big of an impact as either kirk or TT. Yes we keep BG, but there are other options and this sounds pretty harsh to happen sooner than september or october.

I traded Kirk + Tyrus for Haslem + Gordon in my example. I think if you move TT for nothing, you need to bring in another big man obviously. If you bring back Gordon, you need to clear out one of Salmons/Kirk/Deng (and we probably can't move Deng).

The idea here is that you are left with a balanced roster after both moves, and you have the flexibility to still sign your draft picks and build toward the future as well. It's not a perfect plan though.
I'd rather give up one of the picks then kirk and TT. TT is probably better than whoever you get at 16 or 25 and I don't think you really can balance the roster without Kirk. I have no more faith in Deng producing much of anything till he actually does. The offense and his commitment just don't point to him being what he used to be. I'd just rather hold on to kirk till we know whats going on with the fa class of 2010. OKC has done this sort of move with Phoenix in the past and I think they will do so again.
 

RC_Skinny22

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I think it would be a huge mistake to give Kirk away. Sure he´s too good to be a bench player. Without him we wouldn´t have a backup PG.

He can shoot very well, plays a good D (Brian Kush will love me for that ;) ) and by now is better than Rose when the game is slow.

I hope the Bulls keep Hinrich and Gordon.
 

Dpauley23

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Theres not enough room to keep Hinrich and Gordon minutes wise
 

TheStig

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Dpauley23 wrote:
Theres not enough room to keep Hinrich and Gordon minutes wise

Why not?

Rose and BG each get 35mpg and kirk gets 26mpg. Sounds ideal to me.
 

dunkside.com

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Fred wrote:
But I'll try to write a prescription:
Take 2 aspirin, drink lots of water, get 8 hours of sleep, and read my "Hinrich's Good But Not Great" article (Written BEFORE the Kirk Trainwreck season of 2007-08 and the lucky Kansas victory over Rose's Memphis team).
http://blog.chicagobullseye.com/2007/09/19/hinrichs-good-but-not-great.aspx

Well, I just took a 14 hour sleep. Somehow it seems I get tired after a few weeks of watching NBA games that start at 1 or 2 am. Apparently 4h of sleep per night is not enough. Who'd have thunk ?! :p

As for Hinrich ... if realgm still had their archives I could show you dozens of posts in which I kept saying that Hinrich is overrated by Bulls' fans, that a team won't get far with him as the primary play-maker, and that his defense (especially on Wade) was overrated.

I'd like to expand a bit the last 2 things:

1. Being a play maker is completely different from being a PG - yes, most of the time the PG is the main play maker, but on teams like the Cavs or Heat the main play makers are Lebron and Wade. This is why I always said the ideal situation for Hinrich would be to play next to such a guy. He wouldn't need to make playes for others and he could focus on D and hitting the open shot, thus maximizing his strengths.

2. A big deal was made about Hinrich "stopping" Wade, but I watched those games and I did not see Hinrich defending Wade 1-1. Unlike Avery Johnson in the 2006 finals, who kept talking about trying to stop Shaq while Wade was killing his team, Skiles understood that Wade was the Heat's best player. As a result when Chicago played the Heat, every time Wade tried to penetrate there'd be 2 or 3 players around him.

As further proof that it was Skiles' D that slowed down Wade and not Hinrich, just check Wade's stats this past season against the Bucks. He had horrible stats against them. Low scoring, low percentages.

Fred wrote:
Kirk had a solid comeback year this year, but I'd take Haslem in a second for him. Miller isn't the youngest guy in the world. Haslem will be 29 in June, and I love the anger and defense he would bring to the frontcourt.

I love Haslem's game. He's tough, he seems like an excellent addition to a lockerroom, he does what he's asked to do. However I don't know if he'd fit well with the Bulls. I want to keep Tyrus and Haslem would just be another undersized PF. I know he plays bigger than he is, but I think he'd fit better next to a C with size. And for the record, Noah may be 7ft, but he's so light that he plays smaller than he is. He gets bullied around and will continue to do so until he puts on some weight - if ever. That's why Perkins was able to grab all those offensive boards over him in the Celtics series.

So I don't think Haslem to the Bulls would work unless ...

Fred wrote:
I posted this on another thread, but everyone seems to be reading this one. And the silence is making me think I'm really crazy.

Call me crazy, but I've begun to think that Tyrus might be better off playing during the 3 one day. Am I crazy? Is it crazier then Jerry Krause telling me that Tyson Chandler could play the 3 on the night he was drafted? Defintely less crazy, but still crazy?

This revelation happened during 3 events:

1. Tyrus played some unbelieveable D on LeBron in our victory over the Cavs at home this year. I attended that game with the Great One, and Doug can confirm this. The Cavs kept playing pick and roll to get LeBron that matchup, and Tyrus did a really fine job on him. He's a much better one on one defender. He's not good fundamentally on the boards defensively, but his athleticism helps to negate athletic 3's.

2. I've seen an improvement in his ballhandling. Can he improve his ballhandling another notch this offseason? I think if you tell him he's going to get some more minutes at the 3, he would try to work on it. I just get the vibe that he would rather play on the perimeter than down low. It's actually kind of obvious on the offensive end. Luol Deng is not a great ballhandler. Can Tyrus catch up to him in one summer?

3. He's kind of undersized against the bigger power forwards, but he's oversized against the vast majority of 3's.

This could be the dumbest idea I've ever had. Please tell me yes or no.

YES (as in "YES, Tyrus can play the 3").

I actually called for the Bulls to play Tyrus at the 3 instead of the damned 3 G line-up. I said that Tyrus could do a nice job on Pierce as long as he'd ignore all the fakes and just stay on his feet.

I think in fact that Tyrus' handles are already better than Dengs. You might think otherwise because Deng rarely loses the ball off the dribble, but that's because Tyrus tries to do more - Deng rarely dribbles. Most of the time he just takes that jumper if he's open. If not he passes back the ball.

I say Tyrus has better handles AND better passing abilities compared to Deng.

I started thinking about Tyrus at the 3 this season, seeing that his jumper improved. And during the Celtics series I thought of it more and more since lack of size was killing the Bulls. One or 2 offseasons of work and he'd be a pretty damn good 3, IMO. He's a 3-4 tweener so this should be used to the Bulls advantage, playing him where they need him instead or trying to pigeonhole him at the 3 or at the 4.

Moving Tyrus at the 3 would make Deng expendable, which for me is great since I've been saying FOR YEARS that the Bulls won't win with Hinrich and Deng as their best players.
 

Shakes

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The thing is we don't need Tyrus to be a three. We have Deng (for better or worse) on an untradable contract, so the position is filled. What we don't have is front court players, only Noah is on a contract past next year.

I don't even know why you'd want him to be a three. His best defensive asset is his shot blocking, and he'll do less of that at SF (look at how AK's blocks declined when Utah moved him to the 3). On offense, even if you believe he could develop the jumper enough to play there, he'd really have to hurry up. We need to make a decision on whether to offer him a contract after this year.
 

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