Hinrich back in starting lineup

[Kush77]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/chi-25-bulls-chicago-dec25,0,946541.story

 

[Kush77]

Wow, I didn't know Fred posted on the Tribune web site. Fred's alias must be Stratmaster :laugh:

Well, Vinny has finally acknowledged what I have been saying all year. The team performs much better when Hinrich is on the floor. I am tempted to say "I told you so" to a few folks who I have had to point this out to, and who have needed to be educated that PPG is not the only statistic, and that statistics in general often are misleading and never tell the whole story. But I would never say I told you so, especially on Christmas Day. It would be non-jolly to come on here and say I told you so. So I won't say I told you so.

I expect you will see significant improvement in the way the Bulls start games, which will position them to win consistently. Of course, if you can't hold a 35 point lead... it doesn't matter how well you start.
So, Merry Christmas to all the posters, and in that spirit, "I didn't tell you so".
Stratmaster (12/25/2009, 1:34 PM )


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[pinkizdead]

i want to find this guy and beat him to death with a bag of basketballs draped in a kirk hinrich jersey.

really? has he been watching bulls games? how do you think hinrich makes this team better??? his defensive isn't spectacular! he is not rodman/artest/ariza! this guy is the least tradeable asset that the bulls possess. i just hope he works his value high enough so that we can trade him.

 

[clonetrooper264]

pinkizdead wrote:

i want to find this guy and beat him to death with a bag of basketballs draped in a kirk hinrich jersey.

really? has he been watching bulls games? how do you think hinrich makes this team better??? his defensive isn't spectacular! he is not rodman/artest/ariza! this guy is the least tradeable asset that the bulls possess. i just hope he works his value high enough so that we can trade him.

At least he's an asset now instead of a worthless piece of crap. Or is that what you meant?

 

[Shakes]

On one hand Kirk needs to start to increase his value so he can be traded, on the other Salmons needs to play so he'll increase his value and opt out. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other who starts.

Personally I think Salmons has been awful enough that with Hinrich looking better lately it's worth a try to start him.

 

[pinkizdead]

Shakes wrote:

On one hand Kirk needs to start to increase his value so he can be traded, on the other Salmons needs to play so he'll increase his value and opt out. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other who starts.
.

it's like sophie's choice.

 

[pinkizdead]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

pinkizdead wrote:

i want to find this guy and beat him to death with a bag of basketballs draped in a kirk hinrich jersey.

really? has he been watching bulls games? how do you think hinrich makes this team better??? his defensive isn't spectacular! he is not rodman/artest/ariza! this guy is the least tradeable asset that the bulls possess. i just hope he works his value high enough so that we can trade him.

At least he's an asset now instead of a worthless piece of crap. Or is that what you meant?

no. i dont think hinrich is a asset. he's a detriment. he plays the same position as our best player, and he is incapable of playing the position we require him to play.

 

[houheffna]

Hinrich when at his best is NOT a detriment guys. Noah last night talked about how important he was on the floor in the second half at calling out the defenses and telling everybody where to go and what to expect. HE was the coach on the floor, not Rose according to Noah. He has had a bad year but he can play both guard positions and when playing right brings a lot to the table...

 

[st. park]

houheffna wrote:

Hinrich when at his best is NOT a detriment guys. Noah last night talked about how important he was on the floor in the second half at calling out the defenses and telling everybody where to go and what to expect. HE was the coach on the floor, not Rose according to Noah. He has had a bad year but he can play both guard positions and when playing right brings a lot to the table...

You can say that about pretty much every single player in the NBA.. when ________ is playing at his best, he is not a detriment to his team.

The problem is that Hinrich has played at his supposed best less than 1/3 of the games in the past 2 years. The other 67% of the time, he's been a detriment.

 

[houheffna]

You can say that about pretty much every single player in the NBA.. when ________ is playing at his best, he is not a detriment to his team.

The problem is that Hinrich has played at his supposed best less than 1/3 of the games in the past 2 years. The other 67% of the time, he's been a detriment.

you can say THAT about a lot of players in the league too. Especially on this team. Making it seem that he is a bad basketball player detrimental to the team is a bit far-fetched. I don't know where you got that ratio from...but in the playoffs, he was the most consistent, reliable and efficient player in the Bulls backcourt...on both sides of the floor. Somehow, people became disillusioned about this teams abilities based on the playoffs. I am one who thought Hinrich could continue that level of play into this season...I was wrong. But he still brings positives to the team.

What Noah said about him is not said about every player in the league, and definitely not about every player on this team...

 

[pinkizdead]

houheffna wrote:

...but in the playoffs, he was the most consistent, reliable and efficient player in the Bulls backcourt...on both sides of the floor. Somehow, people became disillusioned about this teams abilities based on the playoffs....

the most consistent? the mosst reliable and the most efficient? really? were you watching the playoffs from a couple years ago?
are you high? do you not remember hinrich missing clutch shots, clutch free throws, and missing a layup in game 6 that would have ended the game! are you high!
rose - game 1.
gordon games - 2 and 4.

hinrich is playing the same level of play as last year. he's a decent defender and capable of guarding 3 positions. he's also a decent pg. he and gordon complimented each other very well, but next to rose a lot of hinrich's flaws are more apparent. with rose on the floor we need a shooter who can play decent defense, not a defender.

 

[houheffna]

the most consistent? the mosst reliable and the most efficient? really? were you watching the playoffs from a couple years ago?
are you high? do you not remember hinrich missing clutch shots, clutch free throws, and missing a layup in game 6 that would have ended the game! are you high!
rose - game 1.
gordon games - 2 and 4.

hinrich is playing the same level of play as last year. he's a decent defender and capable of guarding 3 positions. he's also a decent pg. he and gordon complimented each other very well, but next to rose a lot of hinrich's flaws are more apparent. with rose on the floor we need a shooter who can play decent defense, not a defender.

ok buddy...king of all things sober...you tell me who WAS the most consistent, efficient backcourt player on the Bulls in that playoff run...

YOU DON'T HAVE A SHOOTER...you use what you have. He played perfectly fine with Rose in said playoffs and yes he was the most consistent and most efficient of those backcourt players from game to game. I can give you a myriad of mistakes Gordon and Rose made also. The point was that he is not detrimental to the team. Brad Miller...that is another story...but Hinrich is not detrimental to the team. His presence on this team does not make the team worse, obviously he has been bad for most of the season, but he is still capable of helping the team.

 

[pinkizdead]

haha. sorry i must be listening to much of adam carrolla's podcast. his rhetoric is seeping into my unconscious.


strangely i agree that he can still help the team, but i think the best way for him to help the team is to up his value until he becomes a
tradable asset. we really need a shooter, and hinrich is a facilitator defender/ 4/5 scoring option.

the thing is, if kirk was the most efficient/best player during the playoffs, that's a very poor statement to make about your team. Rose was absolutely terrible on defense last year, but he did have some decent blocks. However he was guarding rondo, and hinrich didnt really do too much better against rondo either. Rondo played rediculously well against the bulls. a lot of that was a poor defense from both the front and back court of the bulls.

gordon played rediculously good defense on ray allen, but then he was injured. A lot of the terrible defense of the bulls could be put on the shoulders of rose and the switching that the bulls constantly did last year. The bulls played terrible defense last year, but gordon's individual defense wasn't terrible. You cant expect him to be able to guard pierce/the bigger guys, but he did okay against rondo/allen. He lit them up in games 2/4. His injury and foul trouble took him out of games 6. 3/7 he wasn't that big of a factor, but when you're counting most efficient and best player during the series, some of those games that the bulls were basically carried by ben gordon should cancel out some of the games he sucked in games 3/6/7.

However the bulls sucked in games 3/7, and the entire team was absolutely terrible. Hinrich included. If you look at it, the games we really are talking about are games 1, 2, 4,5, and 6. In the last quarter gordon played well of the first game. He owned game 2. game 4, he played very well in. i dont remember much of game, as it was a bulls loss, and game 6 he was in foul trouble/injured. i'd have to give it to gordon.

I cant lie i want to give it to rose, just cause i love the guy, and gordon is with the enemy now, but gordon was the best back court player last year. Also hinrich and the entire team benefited from the amount of pressure the opposing teams would put on gordon. he was getting double teamed behind the arc. i have the games saved on my external hard drive, and i watch them when i'm bored. the amount of attention paid to gordon was ridiculous. that sort of shit doesnt show up on a chart, and we have to take into account.

 

[houheffna]

haha. sorry i must be listening to much of adam carrolla's podcast. his rhetoric is seeping into my unconscious.


strangely i agree that he can still help the team, but i think the best way for him to help the team is to up his value until he becomes a
tradable asset. we really need a shooter, and hinrich is a facilitator defender/ 4/5 scoring option.

the thing is, if kirk was the most efficient/best player during the playoffs, that's a very poor statement to make about your team. Rose was absolutely terrible on defense last year, but he did have some decent blocks. However he was guarding rondo, and hinrich didnt really do too much better against rondo either. Rondo played rediculously well against the bulls. a lot of that was a poor defense from both the front and back court of the bulls.

gordon played rediculously good defense on ray allen, but then he was injured. A lot of the terrible defense of the bulls could be put on the shoulders of rose and the switching that the bulls constantly did last year. The bulls played terrible defense last year, but gordon's individual defense wasn't terrible. You cant expect him to be able to guard pierce/the bigger guys, but he did okay against rondo/allen. He lit them up in games 2/4. His injury and foul trouble took him out of games 6. 3/7 he wasn't that big of a factor, but when you're counting most efficient and best player during the series, some of those games that the bulls were basically carried by ben gordon should cancel out some of the games he sucked in games 3/6/7.

However the bulls sucked in games 3/7, and the entire team was absolutely terrible. Hinrich included. If you look at it, the games we really are talking about are games 1, 2, 4,5, and 6. In the last quarter gordon played well of the first game. He owned game 2. game 4, he played very well in. i dont remember much of game, as it was a bulls loss, and game 6 he was in foul trouble/injured. i'd have to give it to gordon.

I cant lie i want to give it to rose, just cause i love the guy, and gordon is with the enemy now, but gordon was the best back court player last year. Also hinrich and the entire team benefited from the amount of pressure the opposing teams would put on gordon. he was getting double teamed behind the arc. i have the games saved on my external hard drive, and i watch them when i'm bored. the amount of attention paid to gordon was ridiculous. that sort of shit doesnt show up on a chart, and we have to take into account.

Defensively, Gordon was not that great at all, he has always had a hard time fighting through the screens and Del Negro subbed him out when the Bulls were on defense in the clutch.

Gordon would have caught a severe case of motion sickness trying to guard Rondo. Del Negro didn't use Gordon on Rondo. Plus Hinrich guarded Rondo, Allen and Pierce during that series. You cannot look at stats and say that Gordon played tremendously, Allen missed shots he hit later in the series.

Gordon "carried" the team in one game in the fourth quarter and that was game 2. He hit big shots in game 4 but he only scored 20 points. It was far from a Jordanesque performance. Plus he led the team in scoring, but he also shot 39% from the field.

Ben Gordon played 30 minutes in Game 6, if you give him credit for tremendous defense early in the series, you have to blame him for the most prolific game of the series by one player. Only fair.

Hinrich shot a good percentage from the field and from the 3pt line. He played solid defense at all 3 positions and I am sure THAT Kirk Hinrich is what management thought they would get this season.

Gordon was the team's heart...no one was capable of taking those shots at that time. But those shots are going to have to go to Rose in the future. He has to be able to do his thing in the clutch for the team to be successful as currently constituted. Unless the Bulls get Lebron or DWAde, Rose has to learn to be the man...point blank.

 

[pinkizdead]

houheffna wrote:

Defensively, Gordon was not that great at all, he has always had a hard time fighting through the screens and Del Negro subbed him out when the Bulls were on defense in the clutch.

Gordon would have caught a severe case of motion sickness trying to guard Rondo. Del Negro didn't use Gordon on Rondo. Plus Hinrich guarded Rondo, Allen and Pierce during that series. You cannot look at stats and say that Gordon played tremendously, Allen missed shots he hit later in the series.

Gordon "carried" the team in one game in the fourth quarter and that was game 2. He hit big shots in game 4 but he only scored 20 points. It was far from a Jordanesque performance. Plus he led the team in scoring, but he also shot 39% from the field.

Ben Gordon played 30 minutes in Game 6, if you give him credit for tremendous defense early in the series, you have to blame him for the most prolific game of the series by one player. Only fair.

Hinrich shot a good percentage from the field and from the 3pt line. He played solid defense at all 3 positions and I am sure THAT Kirk Hinrich is what management thought they would get this season.

Gordon was the team's heart...no one was capable of taking those shots at that time. But those shots are going to have to go to Rose in the future. He has to be able to do his thing in the clutch for the team to be successful as currently constituted. Unless the Bulls get Lebron or DWAde, Rose has to learn to be the man...point blank.

vinny the cooler, as he is affectionately referred to, and his subbing hardly justify much. They switched often last year, and that often put gordon on a mismatch. however before gordon's injury, he wasn't that big of a liability on defense. he did have trouble the games after his injury in game 4, but he injured his leg. how do you expect him to keep up with players out there? admittedly his offense was his best defense, and ray allen averaged 18 ppg last year, and gordon averaged 20.

no one is saying gordon is jordonesque, you asked who was the most efficient player last year, it was gordon during this playoff series. the caliber of his performance relevant to other players is irrelevant, if we are limiting the group to the rose hinrich and gordon. i'm leaving hunter out, because that would be ridiculous. that was pretty much the bulls back court last year.

39% while being "THE" guy. also he wasnt shooting too many layups. gordon shot most of his shots from midrange and the 3pt line. BUTT he did get fouls on the other team.

management is Special person. fred saw it. i saw what was comming. most people knew that these guys would revert back to the true shooting percentages, and hinrich is the streakiest shooter in the league. he's almost artest like.

rose has to be the man in the future, we're talking about who played well last year. rose was terrible on D and he wasn't the most efficient player in a couple of those games. he lost the ball often, and besides game 1, he wasn't the best player on the floor. if you cant see that, i dont think i have anything to convince you otherwise. Rose's potential is not the standard by which you should judge his current performance. i love rose, and he's my favorite player, but you have to understand that he wasn't the greatest player on the floor last year.

hinrich played solid during most of the series, and he was the bulls bench at 1-2-3. hunter was awful, but most efficient and etc... that wasn't hinrich. i'll give you this. it's not often that you see a pg get a block on a pf. when hinrich blocked big baby, that was great.

 

[houheffna]

vinny the cooler, as he is affectionately referred to, and his subbing hardly justify much. They switched often last year, and that often put gordon on a mismatch. however before gordon's injury, he wasn't that big of a liability on defense. he did have trouble the games after his injury in game 4, but he injured his leg. how do you expect him to keep up with players out there? admittedly his offense was his best defense, and ray allen averaged 18 ppg last year, and gordon averaged 20.

no one is saying gordon is jordonesque, you asked who was the most efficient player last year, it was gordon during this playoff series. the caliber of his performance relevant to other players is irrelevant, if we are limiting the group to the rose hinrich and gordon. i'm leaving hunter out, because that would be ridiculous. that was pretty much the bulls back court last year.

39% while being "THE" guy. also he wasnt shooting too many layups. gordon shot most of his shots from midrange and the 3pt line. BUTT he did get fouls on the other team.

management is Special person. fred saw it. i saw what was comming. most people knew that these guys would revert back to the true shooting percentages, and hinrich is the streakiest shooter in the league. he's almost artest like.

rose has to be the man in the future, we're talking about who played well last year. rose was terrible on D and he wasn't the most efficient player in a couple of those games. he lost the ball often, and besides game 1, he wasn't the best player on the floor. if you cant see that, i dont think i have anything to convince you otherwise. Rose's potential is not the standard by which you should judge his current performance. i love rose, and he's my favorite player, but you have to understand that he wasn't the greatest player on the floor last year.

hinrich played solid during most of the series, and he was the bulls bench at 1-2-3. hunter was awful, but most efficient and etc... that wasn't hinrich. i'll give you this. it's not often that you see a pg get a block on a pf. when hinrich blocked big baby, that was great.

No I didn't ask who the most efficient player in the playoffs were, I STATED who it was and its fact. Gordon was not...sorry, 39% hardly shows efficiency in the NBA. Vinny did what Skiles did before him, sub in a better defensive player when warranted. It is well known that Gordon couldn't guard a hat rack...that didn't change in the playoffs. I thought the team used Hinrich very well in that series. I think you are confusing the meaning of efficiency by the way.

Who are you saying switched? Gordon can't guard point guards and he is at a mismatch often against wing players...nothing much you can do about that. You say he wasnt "that" big of a liability...I agree, but he was a liability. Remember also I am talking about the playoff series, that is it, not talking about the season.

I didn't say who was the best, efficient is not synonymous with best. I stated that he was the most consistent and reliable...and I don't remember saying Rose was the greatest player on the floor. None of them were, none of them are great, that adjective should not be used concerning Gordon, Hinrich or Rose's overall ability. Rose was not the greatest, but he is by far the most important of the three, no doubt about that. Gordon was not (and hadn't been for a couple of years, I believe) the future of the franchise. Rose is. That was the only reason I wanted to go to the playoffs period, to get the young guys (Rose, Noah) exposure to the playoffs and see what they were really made of.

Concerning management, if the Bulls had paid Gordon more than some superior players, like say Monta Ellis (remember we are talking about last year)they would have been Special person because he is not as good a player as Ellis. Ellis made 11 million, you don't give Gordon a dime over that in my opinion. I really think 10 million should have been the cap. Since someone gave him that much...let him go. Gordon served the town well...now its time to move on and see what Rose can do...

 

[Diddy1122]

houheffna wrote:

No I didn't ask who the most efficient player in the playoffs were, I STATED who it was and its fact. Gordon was not...sorry, 39% hardly shows efficiency in the NBA. Vinny did what Skiles did before him, sub in a better defensive player when warranted. It is well known that Gordon couldn't guard a hat rack...that didn't change in the playoffs. I thought the team used Hinrich very well in that series. I think you are confusing the meaning of efficiency by the way.

Who are you saying switched? Gordon can't guard point guards and he is at a mismatch often against wing players...nothing much you can do about that. You say he wasnt "that" big of a liability...I agree, but he was a liability. Remember also I am talking about the playoff series, that is it, not talking about the season.

I didn't say who was the best, efficient is not synonymous with best. I stated that he was the most consistent and reliable...and I don't remember saying Rose was the greatest player on the floor. None of them were, none of them are great, that adjective should not be used concerning Gordon, Hinrich or Rose's overall ability. Rose was not the greatest, but he is by far the most important of the three, no doubt about that. Gordon was not (and hadn't been for a couple of years, I believe) the future of the franchise. Rose is. That was the only reason I wanted to go to the playoffs period, to get the young guys (Rose, Noah) exposure to the playoffs and see what they were really made of.

Concerning management, if the Bulls had paid Gordon more than some superior players, like say Monta Ellis (remember we are talking about last year)they would have been Special person because he is not as good a player as Ellis. Ellis made 11 million, you don't give Gordon a dime over that in my opinion. I really think 10 million should have been the cap. Since someone gave him that much...let him go. Gordon served the town well...now its time to move on and see what Rose can do...

I'd have to agree here, based on efficiency. Kirk was very effective in that series & for the most part played really good defense (though losing Pierce on that game winner in game 2 was ridiculous). But you still have to factor in that BG was playing on 1 leg for half that series. That's defintely going to affect your shooting, cutting, & overall effectiveness on the court. Kirk had a big impact on that series, was it greater that BG's? I would say no. Kirk was not putting the team on his back, knocking down big shots on 1 leg, leading the team in scoring, or causing Ray Allen to foul out. But he did block a slow, undersized PF, so that should count for something, right?

And I think the most interesting thing about that series is that Ben had almost an indentical defensive rating as the greatest defender on earth, Kirk Hinrich, while playing on 1 leg during half the series. This whole "Gordon is a liability on defense" is so overblown all the time. The guy is not a bad defender. He is average. Problem is he's small for a 2 & this plays to the taller guards advantage. There I guess could be the "liability" part, but this whole BG is the worst defender ever is completely off base. Maybe he should try & be more dirty with his D, like Derek Fisher, to make up for his deficiences.

As for the whole management thing, well they had BG for less than $10mill, but they decided to pull the offer at the last minute because Ben didn't jump thru their hoops & pucker up & smooch JR's saggy ass.

 

[houheffna]

And I think the most interesting thing about that series is that Ben had almost an indentical defensive rating as the greatest defender on earth, Kirk Hinrich, while playing on 1 leg during half the series. This whole "Gordon is a liability on defense" is so overblown all the time. The guy is not a bad defender. He is average. Problem is he's small for a 2 & this plays to the taller guards advantage. There I guess could be the "liability" part, but this whole BG is the worst defender ever is completely off base. Maybe he should try & be more dirty with his D, like Derek Fisher, to make up for his deficiences.

First of all, concerning Ben Gordon's defense, he tries and can usually do well within a team defensive structure, but put out on an island against the wing players in this league...no chance. He is not a good on the ball defender at all. Now, as for his trying hard...never mistake activity for accomplishment.

And THIS is why I don't pay attention to those ratings. Do you REALLY think Gordon did as good a job defensively as Hinrich? Hinrich guarded Rondo, Allen and Pierce as well as other wing players on that team. He played a valuable role in that series.

As far as who was most effective...I am stating facts, don't care about Gordon's leg or Salmons' groin injury. Gordon had a bad game 1 with a perfectly good leg. He is not the caliber player to average 30+ points in a playoff series...none of those guys are.

With the management thing, I said "concerning last year only" not talking about the numerous contract negotiations (Brian Hanley talked about that this morning in passing too...blamed "some of the players" for their constant complaints about management's contract offers to the media and comparing stats on stat sheets to see who was better than who for a lot of what happened in 2007 when Skiles got fired...wonder who he was talking about? Couldn't have been talking about St. Ben Mohatma Ghandhi Luther King Gordon from UConn could he? Naw! But I digress...). That contract should have been signed, but 12mil per? C'mon man!

 

[pinkizdead]

houheffna wrote:

As far as who was most effective...I am stating facts, don't care about Gordon's leg or Salmons' groin injury. Gordon had a bad game 1 with a perfectly good leg. He is not the caliber player to average 30+ points in a playoff series...none of those guys are.

out of that group of people who averaged less than 30, gordon was the best.

 

[houheffna]

out of that group of people who averaged less than 30, gordon was the best.

that is your opinion, and that was never the argument. I talked about consistency and efficiency. In that area, Hinrich was the best.