Hinrich back in starting lineup

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

And I think the most interesting thing about that series is that Ben had almost an indentical defensive rating as the greatest defender on earth, Kirk Hinrich, while playing on 1 leg during half the series. This whole "Gordon is a liability on defense" is so overblown all the time. The guy is not a bad defender. He is average. Problem is he's small for a 2 & this plays to the taller guards advantage. There I guess could be the "liability" part, but this whole BG is the worst defender ever is completely off base. Maybe he should try & be more dirty with his D, like Derek Fisher, to make up for his deficiences.

First of all, concerning Ben Gordon's defense, he tries and can usually do well within a team defensive structure, but put out on an island against the wing players in this league...no chance. He is not a good on the ball defender at all. Now, as for his trying hard...never mistake activity for accomplishment.

And THIS is why I don't pay attention to those ratings. Do you REALLY think Gordon did as good a job defensively as Hinrich? Hinrich guarded Rondo, Allen and Pierce as well as other wing players on that team. He played a valuable role in that series.

As far as who was most effective...I am stating facts, don't care about Gordon's leg or Salmons' groin injury. Gordon had a bad game 1 with a perfectly good leg. He is not the caliber player to average 30+ points in a playoff series...none of those guys are.

With the management thing, I said "concerning last year only" not talking about the numerous contract negotiations (Brian Hanley talked about that this morning in passing too...blamed "some of the players" for their constant complaints about management's contract offers to the media and comparing stats on stat sheets to see who was better than who for a lot of what happened in 2007 when Skiles got fired...wonder who he was talking about? Couldn't have been talking about St. Ben Mohatma Ghandhi Luther King Gordon from UConn could he? Naw! But I digress...). That contract should have been signed, but 12mil per? C'mon man!

Two players did that this past playoffs, I wouldn't hold your breath for one.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

out of that group of people who averaged less than 30, gordon was the best.

that is your opinion, and that was never the argument. I talked about consistency and efficiency. In that area, Hinrich was the best.

You very well could use a small sample size of a series where one guy was playing hurt half the time or you could use something more appropriate like a season or career, where its clearly the other way around.

 

[pinkizdead]

are you saying hinrich was more consistent than gordon on the offensive end? if you're going to argue that the stats dont measure everything you have to pay heed the point that gordon had more pressure on him, and often took more difficult shots than hinrich did. those shots when the shot clock was going down, you passed it to gordon.

this is my last point i'ma make. i think we're just going to continue to disagree.

 

[houheffna]

Two players did that this past playoffs, I wouldn't hold your breath for one.

There are a bunch of them available in the offseason who are of that caliber though. You gotta make a pitch for one of them...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Two players did that this past playoffs, I wouldn't hold your breath for one.

There are a bunch of them available in the offseason who are of that caliber though. You gotta make a pitch for one of them...

No, only one of them is available this offseason and another one that is probably capaable of it and they aren't coming here to play with a lottery team. Bron and Wade can't score 30+ppg and win a ring, its been proven they need more guys around them and can't win playing by themselves. Furthermore, this isn't sophie choice. BG would play with a star and wasn't demanding the entire salary cap. His salary wasn't preventing us from anything. Guys like Kirk and Deng are tying up the cap and not living up to their deals.

 

[Diddy1122]

houheffna wrote:

And THIS is why I don't pay attention to those ratings. Do you REALLY think Gordon did as good a job defensively as Hinrich? Hinrich guarded Rondo, Allen and Pierce as well as other wing players on that team. He played a valuable role in that series.

As far as who was most effective...I am stating facts, don't care about Gordon's leg or Salmons' groin injury. Gordon had a bad game 1 with a perfectly good leg. He is not the caliber player to average 30+ points in a playoff series...none of those guys are.

Did I ever say Gordon was better than Hinrich defensively? No, I didn't. I just said the gap was not that big between the two of them in that series. I'm not a moron. I know Kirk is better defensively. I know he defended mutiple positions. And I even agreed with you that he was more effecient than Ben in the series. But you are just completely dismissing the fact that 1 player was completely healthy that series while the other was not & that has a BIG effect on effeciency.

And I'll even agree that Ben is not a good on-ball defender, because he's not. But make no mistake, Kirk isn't amazing at it either, though he is better than Gordon. He frequently gets beat by smaller, quicker players all the time. You put Kirk on a slower guard or forward & he'll look amazing on the ball. You put him up against TJ Ford, Tony Parker, Monta Ellis, etc. & he looks woefully bad. Kirk would have been an All-World defender back in the 80's when there was no hand check or 2 hands in the back rule.

I agree Ben, nor anyone else who was on that team, would average 30+ in a series, that's just ridiculous to think so. And I said Kirk had a big impact on that series, I just don't feel it was bigger than BG's. So Kirk was more effective, but Ben made more of an impact that's all I'm trying to say here.

 

[houheffna]

No, only one of them is available this offseason and another one that is probably capaable of it and they aren't coming here to play with a lottery team. Bron and Wade can't score 30+ppg and win a ring, its been proven they need more guys around them and can't win playing by themselves. Furthermore, this isn't sophie choice. BG would play with a star and wasn't demanding the entire salary cap. His salary wasn't preventing us from anything. Guys like Kirk and Deng are tying up the cap and not living up to their deals.

Wade scored 35ppg in the finals when his team won the championship...so i disagree with you on that point. If you get a DWade, or a Johnson for that matter, you don't need Ben, he is unnecessary.

 

[Shakes]

Honestly the finals Wade won by himself looks like a fluke where Wade just played really well, and their opponents played really badly at the right time. They haven't had nearly the same success since. And even saying he won the finals "by himself", he wouldn't have been there if not for Shaq's ~20 PPG through the regular season and earlier rounds.

LeBron's last playoffs should prove that one guy can't do it all by himself, no matter how off the charts he plays. So you might not need Ben in particular, but even with a star you still need someone else who can score.

 

[houheffna]

Honestly the finals Wade won by himself looks like a fluke where Wade just played really well, and their opponents played really badly at the right time. They haven't had nearly the same success since. And even saying he won the finals "by himself", he wouldn't have been there if not for Shaq's ~20 PPG through the regular season and earlier rounds.

LeBron's last playoffs should prove that one guy can't do it all by himself, no matter how off the charts he plays. So you might not need Ben in particular, but even with a star you still need someone else who can score.

I never said that wasn't the case...what I said was Wade scored 35ppg in the finals and won the championship. Saying you can't win by yourself is like saying 2+2 = 4.

BG is NOT needed to win a championship. Simple as that. If you have Rose on the team, Wade and Rose are going to start over Gordon, that is elementary. Then you have a 12mil one dimensional bench player...total waste of cap space there. That is my point.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

No, only one of them is available this offseason and another one that is probably capaable of it and they aren't coming here to play with a lottery team. Bron and Wade can't score 30+ppg and win a ring, its been proven they need more guys around them and can't win playing by themselves. Furthermore, this isn't sophie choice. BG would play with a star and wasn't demanding the entire salary cap. His salary wasn't preventing us from anything. Guys like Kirk and Deng are tying up the cap and not living up to their deals.

Wade scored 35ppg in the finals when his team won the championship...so i disagree with you on that point. If you get a DWade, or a Johnson for that matter, you don't need Ben, he is unnecessary.

Wade did that several seasons ago, several injuries ago, when he actually talked to teammates and bothered to show up in shape. I've really soured on Wades attitude this year, he has been acting more like Vince Carter than a superstar that wants to win. Johnson has never done it and plays significantly worse in the playoffs. He has barely averaged 20ppg in the playoffs let alone anywhere near 30.

 

[jsain360]

I've talked w/ a few fans from Detriot, and they asked if the Bulls have a return policy, they want to give BG back, LMFAO

 

[jsain360]

BTW: Luol Deng is having probably a better season than BG, lets embrace the performance of Deng and forget about BG, if anybody loves BG, go become a Pistons' fan, so PEACE OUT! to Ben Gordon.

 

[Fred]

jsain360 wrote:

BTW: Luol Deng is having probably a better season than BG, lets embrace the performance of Deng and forget about BG, if anybody loves BG, go become a Pistons' fan, so PEACE OUT! to Ben Gordon.

Ben's been injured for much of this season. I'm not surprised by the reaction of your friends who are Pistons' fans, because most of the Pistons fans I've met are morons. I'm pretty sure they'll be happy once he gets healthy and starts playing like he usually does.

But I'm not quite sure what your point is? "Luol Deng is having probably a better season than BG." Ben's averaging 18.5 in 33.6 mpg, Luol's averaging 18.3 in 39 mpg. Ben's played 639 minutes, and he's shot 103 Free Throws. Luol's played 1,092 minutes, and he's shot 117 Free Throws. Of course, for the first time in his career, Ben has missed almost half the season due to injury, and it's obviously effected his shooting percentages. Luol's an expert in missing games. If the Pistons want a trade back, I'd be happy to give them Luol Deng for Ben Gordon. Would you?

And you can still appreciate BG for what he did here, and not become a Pistons fan. I didn't become a Rockets fan when Scottie Pippen wanted to leave. I didn't become a Wizards fan, although I'll always love MJ.

 

[jsain360]

Deng is also averaging 8 boards, 1stl and a 1 block

 

[TheStig]

Fred wrote:

jsain360 wrote:

BTW: Luol Deng is having probably a better season than BG, lets embrace the performance of Deng and forget about BG, if anybody loves BG, go become a Pistons' fan, so PEACE OUT! to Ben Gordon.

Ben's been injured for much of this season. I'm not surprised by the reaction of your friends who are Pistons' fans, because most of the Pistons fans I've met are morons. I'm pretty sure they'll be happy once he gets healthy and starts playing like he usually does.

But I'm not quite sure what your point is? "Luol Deng is having probably a better season than BG." Ben's averaging 18.5 in 33.6 mpg, Luol's averaging 18.3 in 39 mpg. Ben's played 639 minutes, and he's shot 103 Free Throws. Luol's played 1,092 minutes, and he's shot 117 Free Throws. Of course, for the first time in his career, Ben has missed almost half the season due to injury, and it's obviously effected his shooting percentages. Luol's an expert in missing games. If the Pistons want a trade back, I'd be happy to give them Luol Deng for Ben Gordon. Would you?

And you can still appreciate BG for what he did here, and not become a Pistons fan. I didn't become a Rockets fan when Scottie Pippen wanted to leave. I didn't become a Wizards fan, although I'll always love MJ.

Really, I'd jump at BG for Deng. Bring BG back to town. JR would never do it but I'll take it in a heart beat. Even better would be Kirk and Salmons for BG.

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

Gordon had a bad game 1 with a perfectly good leg. He is not the caliber player to average 30+ points in a playoff series...none of those guys are.

Bad Game 1? He had 20 points and 5 assists, 7-8 from the free throw. Most importantly, it was WHEN he scored, in the final 5 minutes of the 4th. The man he was guarding, Ray Allen, shot 1-12. He had a great game.

Here's a play by play of the last 5 minutes of that Game 1, when Ben thankfully entered for the game for Kirk Hinrich, who was 1-4 with 2 Turovers in 23 minutes of terrible basketball:

5:01 Ben Gordon enters the game for Kirk Hinrich 81-79
5:01 81-79 Glen Davis enters the game for Leon Powe
4:48 81-79 Rajon Rondo misses jumper
4:48 81-79 Boston defensive rebound
4:33 Ben Gordon makes 24-foot three point jumper (Joakim Noah assists) 84-79
4:16 84-81 Paul Pierce makes driving layup (Rajon Rondo assists)
3:54 Brad Miller misses 18-foot jumper 84-81
3:53 84-81 Paul Pierce defensive rebound
3:47 84-83 Rajon Rondo makes driving layup (Paul Pierce assists)
3:30 Derrick Rose bad pass (Rajon Rondo steals) 84-83
3:26 84-85 Paul Pierce makes driving layup
3:25 Chicago full timeout
3:11 Kendrick Perkins blocks Brad Miller's layup 84-85
3:09 84-85 Glen Davis defensive rebound
3:02 John Salmons personal foul (Paul Pierce draws the foul) 84-85
2:55 84-85 Rajon Rondo misses 9-foot jumper
2:54 84-85 Rajon Rondo offensive rebound
2:54 Derrick Rose shooting foul (Rajon Rondo draws the foul) 84-85
2:54 84-86 Rajon Rondo makes free throw 1 of 2
2:54 84-87 Rajon Rondo makes free throw 2 of 2
2:44 Ben Gordon misses 25-foot three point jumper 84-87
2:42 84-87 Rajon Rondo defensive rebound
2:35 84-87 Ray Allen misses 23-foot three point jumper
2:34 John Salmons defensive rebound 84-87
2:26 Ben Gordon makes 21-foot jumper 86-87
2:25 Boston full timeout
2:25 Kirk Hinrich enters the game for John Salmons 86-87
2:25 Tyrus Thomas enters the game for Brad Miller 86-87
2:13 Derrick Rose shooting foul (Glen Davis draws the foul) 86-87
2:13 86-88 Glen Davis makes free throw 1 of 2
2:13 86-88 Glen Davis misses free throw 2 of 2
2:12 Joakim Noah defensive rebound 86-88
1:54 Ben Gordon makes 18-foot two point shot 88-88
1:54 88-88 Ray Allen shooting foul (Ben Gordon draws the foul)
1:54 Ben Gordon makes free throw 1 of 1 89-88
1:40 89-88 Paul Pierce lost ball (Kirk Hinrich steals)
1:35 Tyrus Thomas makes 3-foot running jumper 91-88
1:31 Tyrus Thomas personal foul (Rajon Rondo draws the foul) 91-88
1:31 91-89 Rajon Rondo makes free throw 1 of 2
1:31 91-90 Rajon Rondo makes free throw 2 of 2
1:17 Ben Gordon makes 20-foot two point shot (Derrick Rose assists) 93-90
1:07 Derrick Rose shooting foul (Glen Davis draws the foul) 93-90
1:07 93-91 Glen Davis makes free throw 1 of 2
1:07 93-91 Tony Allen enters the game for Ray Allen
1:07 93-92 Glen Davis makes free throw 2 of 2
0:50 Derrick Rose misses layup 93-92
0:49 Joakim Noah offensive rebound 93-92
0:48 Joakim Noah misses tip shot 93-92
0:47 93-92 Kendrick Perkins defensive rebound
0:37 Kirk Hinrich shooting foul (Paul Pierce draws the foul) 93-92
0:37 93-93 Paul Pierce makes free throw 1 of 2
0:37 93-94 Paul Pierce makes free throw 2 of 2
0:37 Chicago full timeout
0:37 Brad Miller enters the game for Joakim Noah 93-94
0:37 93-94 Ray Allen enters the game for Kendrick Perkins
0:37 John Salmons enters the game for Tyrus Thomas 93-94
0:31 Derrick Rose makes driving layup 95-94
0:31 95-94 Paul Pierce illegal defense
0:31 Boston full timeout
0:31 95-94 Kendrick Perkins enters the game for Tony Allen
0:31 Tyrus Thomas enters the game for Ben Gordon 95-94
0:31 Joakim Noah enters the game for Brad Miller 95-94
0:28 95-94 Ray Allen misses 25-foot three point jumper
0:27 95-94 Rajon Rondo offensive rebound
0:22 95-96 Rajon Rondo makes jumper
0:22 Chicago 20 Sec. timeout
0:22 Brad Miller enters the game for Joakim Noah 95-96
0:22 Ben Gordon enters the game for Tyrus Thomas 95-96
0:22 95-96 Tony Allen enters the game for Glen Davis
0:17 Ben Gordon misses 4-foot jumper 95-96
0:12 John Salmons offensive rebound 95-96
0:09 95-96 Rajon Rondo personal foul (Derrick Rose draws the foul)
0:09 Derrick Rose makes free throw 1 of 2 96-96
0:09 Joakim Noah enters the game for Brad Miller 96-96
0:09 96-96 Glen Davis enters the game for Tony Allen
0:09 Tyrus Thomas enters the game for Ben Gordon 96-96
0:09 96-96 Stephon Marbury enters the game for Rajon Rondo
0:09 Derrick Rose makes free throw 2 of 2 97-96
0:09 Boston 20 Sec. timeout
0:09 97-96 Rajon Rondo enters the game for Stephon Marbury
0:09 97-96 Eddie House enters the game for Kendrick Perkins
0:02 Joakim Noah shooting foul (Paul Pierce draws the foul) 97-96
0:02 97-97 Paul Pierce makes free throw 1 of 2
0:02 Brad Miller enters the game for Joakim Noah 97-97
0:02 Ben Gordon enters the game for Tyrus Thomas 97-97
0:02 97-97 Stephon Marbury enters the game for Eddie House
0:02 97-97 Kendrick Perkins enters the game for Glen Davis
0:02 97-97 Tony Allen enters the game for Ray Allen
0:02 97-97 Paul Pierce misses free throw 2 of 2
0:02 Brad Miller defensive rebound 97-97
0:00 Brad Miller misses 80-foot three point jumper 97-97
0:00 Chicago offensive rebound 97-97
0:00 End of the 4th Quarter

 

[houheffna]

Bad Game 1? He had 20 points and 5 assists, 7-8 from the free throw. Most importantly, it was WHEN he scored, in the final 5 minutes of the 4th. The man he was guarding, Ray Allen, shot 1-12. He had a great game.

Here's a play by play of the last 5 minutes of that Game 1, when Ben thankfully entered for the game for Kirk Hinrich, who was 1-4 with 2 Turovers in 23 minutes of terrible basketball:

Okay...if Kirk went 6 for 17 from the field, you would want to behead him with a butterknife. Just sayin'

Ben's been injured for much of this season. I'm not surprised by the reaction of your friends who are Pistons' fans, because most of the Pistons fans I've met are morons. I'm pretty sure they'll be happy once he gets healthy and starts playing like he usually does.

But I'm not quite sure what your point is? "Luol Deng is having probably a better season than BG." Ben's averaging 18.5 in 33.6 mpg, Luol's averaging 18.3 in 39 mpg. Ben's played 639 minutes, and he's shot 103 Free Throws. Luol's played 1,092 minutes, and he's shot 117 Free Throws. Of course, for the first time in his career, Ben has missed almost half the season due to injury, and it's obviously effected his shooting percentages. Luol's an expert in missing games. If the Pistons want a trade back, I'd be happy to give them Luol Deng for Ben Gordon. Would you?

And you can still appreciate BG for what he did here, and not become a Pistons fan. I didn't become a Rockets fan when Scottie Pippen wanted to leave. I didn't become a Wizards fan, although I'll always love MJ.

It is not good enough to just bring up offensive numbers, its the other things on the court that Deng is doing well like rebounding, his defense has only been stellar at times but not consistently at a high level. Gordon was playing better defensively. He can now guard a hat rack, as long as its not on wheels.

 

[Shakes]

houheffna wrote:

BG is NOT needed to win a championship. Simple as that. If you have Rose on the team, Wade and Rose are going to start over Gordon, that is elementary. Then you have a 12mil one dimensional bench player...total waste of cap space there. That is my point.

Personally I think Wade + Gordon + whatever you could trade Rose for is a better team than Wade + Rose. Wade + Rose wouldn't fit well together at all, we'd still have the no 3 point shooting problem. If Wade wants to come here of course you sign him (and pray he stays healthy), but lets not pretend it's an ideal situation.

 

[houheffna]

Personally I think Wade + Gordon + whatever you could trade Rose for is a better team than Wade + Rose. Wade + Rose wouldn't fit well together at all, we'd still have the no 3 point shooting problem. If Wade wants to come here of course you sign him (and pray he stays healthy), but lets not pretend it's an ideal situation.

Its ideal with good coaching, that is the only way it would work. You can go and get a 3pt shooter for 5 or 6 million max. I said a while ago that it would be a problem with those two, but you are not putting Rose on the bench in that scenario.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Personally I think Wade + Gordon + whatever you could trade Rose for is a better team than Wade + Rose. Wade + Rose wouldn't fit well together at all, we'd still have the no 3 point shooting problem. If Wade wants to come here of course you sign him (and pray he stays healthy), but lets not pretend it's an ideal situation.

Its ideal with good coaching, that is the only way it would work. You can go and get a 3pt shooter for 5 or 6 million max. I said a while ago that it would be a problem with those two, but you are not putting Rose on the bench in that scenario.

What 3 pt shooter? If you sign Wade, you have Rose, wade and Deng playing 35+ mpg. Unless you get two 3 pt shooting big men, your not going to have any outside shooting.