I Miss Ben Gordon

[houheffna]

The Woolridge comparison is very fair, this Ben Gordon led us to....stuff is crazy, he led us nowhere! I have pointed before and on the podcast that the best team the Bulls had, he was not the best player, Deng was. By the way...Woolridge in the mid1980's was actually a pretty good player. I remember him a little, little bit when I was young, and he was a beast in transition, I wish Deng could run the lanes like that. Did Gordon do more for the Bulls than Elton Brand? No. He was on better teams, but Brand was an allstar level player. All this talk about Gordon led us here or there and the "Gordon Era" just plain crazy...

By the way...Where is Shakes?

 

[ramblingrose33]

This is what I'm talking about!! This is a site for Bulls fans, not a Gordon sorrow blog!! We respect what he did and will stand and clap when we see him but the show moves on. I'm really excited about this year.

 

[Bullsman24]

ramblingrose33 wrote:

jsain360 wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

ramblingrose33 wrote:

I check this board often and I find the infatuation with Ben Gordan to be a little weird. Either by podcast or post, everyone needs to let number 7 go. He's a Piston now. If you're Bulls fan, you need to live with that. If you're a fan of the NBA and not particularly a Bulls fan, please qualify that so that we know where you stand. Otherwise, as I said earlier, it's weird and boring to read or hear anything about Ben Gordon not being on the Bulls. Please move on.

It's hard to be a Bulls fan and not to be a Ben Gordon fan, because of everything he did for the franchise, and everything he did out on the court.

Ben Gordon did some things for the franchise, but Ben Gordon is = to Orlando Woolridge, guys who put up decent numbers for the Bulls, but did not bring them a championship, Ben is not the whole reason, but apart of the Bulls resergence and nothing more.

I see a good point here. To add, he was much more impressive last year than previous years. Coincidence? Also, where was his leadership? The problem with the teams recently is that nobody was the go to guy or leader on the floor. I liked Ben but he wasn't our long-term answer. Where was he when the Bulls were trying to knock off the Wiz, The Heat or Pistons?

where was the rest of the team also? where was luol deng aka big bucks. either injured or not playing well, that's where.

and i'm pretty sure we BEAT the heat too if memory preserves...

 

[clonetrooper264]

Here's why I loved Gordon so much
1) He was clutch. Straight up, no one on the team could make shots at the end of games like he could. We lost that, so now it's pretty much up to Rose to try to deliver a portion of that.
2) He was the best shooter on the team. Over 40% career from 3 and never once below 40% for a season on a high number of attempts. The man was an ELITE shooter. Why he was never invited to the 3pt contest is beyond me. He is on pace to beat Reggie Miller for 3s made.
3) You never heard him complain about starting/coming off the bench/playing time. Classy guy. Don't have much of those in the league today. On and off the court he was just a classy guy (ok boohoo he grabbed his crotch once)
4) Once we got Rose, his 3pt shooting ability really helped stretch the floor for Rose. This is in other words, the "Fred argument"

But he's gone. I'll admit I was sad, but you know what? The Derrick Rose era is upon us. Joakim seems to be coming along nicely. (We got the 4 extra inches in Salmons) We should be alright.

 

[ramblingrose33]

I think you forget the 2006 Bulls/Heat series. We unfortunately lost 4-2. Loul Deng wasn't hurt but scored a paltry 10 ppg in 6 games whereas Gordon scored 20 ppg in 6 games. Kirk also scored 20 ppg in 6. The point isn't who is better it's that Gordon was not the star. That's what people are forgetting. He wasn't a star and isn't a star. We lost a really good player. People forever in his corner act like we let a multi-dimensional scorer and leader go. That's not the case and that's the "weird" thing.

 

[ramblingrose33]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Here's why I loved Gordon so much
1) He was clutch. Straight up, no one on the team could make shots at the end of games like he could. We lost that, so now it's pretty much up to Rose to try to deliver a portion of that.
2) He was the best shooter on the team. Over 40% career from 3 and never once below 40% for a season on a high number of attempts. The man was an ELITE shooter. Why he was never invited to the 3pt contest is beyond me. He is on pace to beat Reggie Miller for 3s made.
3) You never heard him complain about starting/coming off the bench/playing time. Classy guy. Don't have much of those in the league today. On and off the court he was just a classy guy (ok boohoo he grabbed his crotch once)
4) Once we got Rose, his 3pt shooting ability really helped stretch the floor for Rose. This is in other words, the "Fred argument"

But he's gone. I'll admit I was sad, but you know what? The Derrick Rose era is upon us. Joakim seems to be coming along nicely. (We got the 4 extra inches in Salmons) We should be alright.

I totally agree. I'll completely miss his shot. Also, at the end of the day, he left US!! He had a bad relationship with Reinsdorf (not his fault) and left for Detroit. It's not like he was cool to Bulls fans and went to a non-rival! He went to one of our biggest rivals!

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

The Woolridge comparison is very fair, this Ben Gordon led us to....stuff is crazy, he led us nowhere! I have pointed before and on the podcast that the best team the Bulls had, he was not the best player, Deng was. By the way...Woolridge in the mid1980's was actually a pretty good player. I remember him a little, little bit when I was young, and he was a beast in transition, I wish Deng could run the lanes like that. Did Gordon do more for the Bulls than Elton Brand? No. He was on better teams, but Brand was an allstar level player. All this talk about Gordon led us here or there and the "Gordon Era" just plain crazy...

By the way...Where is Shakes?

I wouldn't call making the playoffs 4 out of 5 yrs nothing. I wouldn't call sweeping the defending champion heat and taking the defending champion celtics to 7 nothing. BG has done a lot. Deng may have been the most complete player on the bulls that year but BG was clearly the most valuable. He carried us down the stretch and was the focal point of the offense. Watch BG's career, he will be remembered in the same thoughts as Miller and Allen. His career averages through this point compare very well.

Seriously Elton Brand? He is underrated in the zach randolph department. For all his talent he has only been to the playoffs ONCE!!!! And now he is falling apart. He has so little impact on any of the team he played on. How many other 20 and 10 big man have only made the playoffs once?

 

[TheStig]

pinkizdead wrote:

you could always move to michigan. it's strangely nice here still. the i refuse to watch a game at the palace.

You could always move to LA and become a clippers fan if you just want to hype up rookies and then dump them when they are due an extension. This is about building a contender and dumping young 20ppg SG's isn't conducive to that.

 

[houheffna]

I wouldn't call making the playoffs 4 out of 5 yrs nothing. I wouldn't call sweeping the defending champion heat and taking the defending champion celtics to 7 nothing. BG has done a lot. Deng may have been the most complete player on the bulls that year but BG was clearly the most valuable. He carried us down the stretch and was the focal point of the offense. Watch BG's career, he will be remembered in the same thoughts as Miller and Allen. His career averages through this point compare very well.

Seriously Elton Brand? He is underrated in the zach randolph department. For all his talent he has only been to the playoffs ONCE!!!! And now he is falling apart. He has so little impact on any of the team he played on. How many other 20 and 10 big man have only made the playoffs once?

Quit acting like the Heat were at the top of their game, Wade was 50% healthy in the playoffs that year and really shouldn't have come back. As far as the Celtics, if they had Garnett is that a 7 game series? BG has done a lot? What about the other players? He wasn't hands down better than anyone else to make it seems as if "he led the team" anywhere. Deng was the best, most valuable or whatever you want to call it in the '07 season, point blank.

You are right, he is underrated, comparing him to Randolph is just nonsensical. When he was here, he was a better player than Gordon, no matter how you throw up the stats, he was a better player. I would take Elton Brand at that time over Ben Gordon in a heartbeat. You are talking about two totally different situations. Brand had a crap team around him based on Krause's idea that he could have a big free agency summer. He had no Hinrich, Deng, anybody like that on his team. Gordon had better teammates, coaches, and a smarter general manager than Brand had while here. That notwithstanding, Brand was a good player here for those two years. And he was just as professional, respectable and hard working as Gordon.

By the way, when someone says "he led...anywhere" I think of franchise players. Gordon led no one nowhere, that was a group of young players who played at a similar level, if anyone led them, it was Skiles...

 

[clonetrooper264]

Would it be fair to say: He greatly helped the team achieve the success it did?

 

[houheffna]

You can say that...if you want to, again, so did Hinrich and Deng...

 

[clonetrooper264]

houheffna wrote:

You can say that...if you want to, again, so did Hinrich and Deng...

And that's why there were the "core" of the team. Or apparently 2 of them were. One of them was just an added bonus.

 

[houheffna]

Exactly right, Hinrich,Gordon,Deng along with guys like Nocioni and Duhon, these were all parts. The one criticism about this team all along is that they didn't have a go to guy, a star player that could draw attention and pressure the defense constantly. They essentially were the Houston Rockets of 1994 without Olajuwon. They had solid team defense, guys that could score in spurts but no one who was going to destroy you in a playoff series like Hakeem could. That is what they were missing...but you are right, it was a core of young, developing players, not Ben Gordon and the Gordonaires....for crying out loud man...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Exactly right, Hinrich,Gordon,Deng along with guys like Nocioni and Duhon, these were all parts. The one criticism about this team all along is that they didn't have a go to guy, a star player that could draw attention and pressure the defense constantly. They essentially were the Houston Rockets of 1994 without Olajuwon. They had solid team defense, guys that could score in spurts but no one who was going to destroy you in a playoff series like Hakeem could. That is what they were missing...but you are right, it was a core of young, developing players, not Ben Gordon and the Gordonaires....for crying out loud man...

If BG wasn't the go to guy, you need to open your eyes. He is continually one of the top 10 players in the league in 4th quarter points. The critism on those bulls teams was that we never had a post player, no one ever complained about the back court production. We were a good pf away from being a top ec team.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

I wouldn't call making the playoffs 4 out of 5 yrs nothing. I wouldn't call sweeping the defending champion heat and taking the defending champion celtics to 7 nothing. BG has done a lot. Deng may have been the most complete player on the bulls that year but BG was clearly the most valuable. He carried us down the stretch and was the focal point of the offense. Watch BG's career, he will be remembered in the same thoughts as Miller and Allen. His career averages through this point compare very well.

Seriously Elton Brand? He is underrated in the zach randolph department. For all his talent he has only been to the playoffs ONCE!!!! And now he is falling apart. He has so little impact on any of the team he played on. How many other 20 and 10 big man have only made the playoffs once?

Quit acting like the Heat were at the top of their game, Wade was 50% healthy in the playoffs that year and really shouldn't have come back. As far as the Celtics, if they had Garnett is that a 7 game series? BG has done a lot? What about the other players? He wasn't hands down better than anyone else to make it seems as if "he led the team" anywhere. Deng was the best, most valuable or whatever you want to call it in the '07 season, point blank.

You are right, he is underrated, comparing him to Randolph is just nonsensical. When he was here, he was a better player than Gordon, no matter how you throw up the stats, he was a better player. I would take Elton Brand at that time over Ben Gordon in a heartbeat. You are talking about two totally different situations. Brand had a crap team around him based on Krause's idea that he could have a big free agency summer. He had no Hinrich, Deng, anybody like that on his team. Gordon had better teammates, coaches, and a smarter general manager than Brand had while here. That notwithstanding, Brand was a good player here for those two years. And he was just as professional, respectable and hard working as Gordon.

By the way, when someone says "he led...anywhere" I think of franchise players. Gordon led no one nowhere, that was a group of young players who played at a similar level, if anyone led them, it was Skiles...

You can discount our opponents however you want. But they were still defending champions. They won rings and still were for the most part intact. YOu can discount BG's contribution, to me he was the most valuable player on that team. He pretty much was the offense in the 4th quarter when hinrich and deng would routinely disappear.

Seeing Elton Brand's career unfold, he certainly is the individual better player but he has never been able to put it together. Those early bulls teams he played on still had artest and miller and couldn't manage to win more than 16 games. His career results look very close to Zach Randolphs. He isn't the team cancer but he could never make an impact on the game results. ANd the last couple of years he has just fallen apart. I just see a question mark when I see elton brand. How can someone with so much talent and fundamentals not be able to buy a winning year.

Sigh if BG wasn't the offensive leader of that team I don't know how you evaluate basketball. He took all the tough shots, closed out games and led us in scoring. Those guys lead teams.

 

[houheffna]

If he is a go to guy, he is a number one option guy, not grading on a curve, in general, he is not a number one option guy.

Ask yourself, if Gordon is the number one go to guy do I win a championship?

Olajuwon was a go to guy. That is why I used his name. A consistent go to guy who could take over a series. The Bulls had no one like that...

You can discount our opponents however you want. But they were still defending champions. They won rings and still were for the most part intact. YOu can discount BG's contribution, to me he was the most valuable player on that team. He pretty much was the offense in the 4th quarter when hinrich and deng would routinely disappear.

Seeing Elton Brand's career unfold, he certainly is the individual better player but he has never been able to put it together. Those early bulls teams he played on still had artest and miller and couldn't manage to win more than 16 games. His career results look very close to Zach Randolphs. He isn't the team cancer but he could never make an impact on the game results. ANd the last couple of years he has just fallen apart. I just see a question mark when I see elton brand. How can someone with so much talent and fundamentals not be able to buy a winning year.

Sigh if BG wasn't the offensive leader of that team I don't know how you evaluate basketball. He took all the tough shots, closed out games and led us in scoring. Those guys lead teams.

In my opinion, there was no Gordon Era, there was no Ben Gordon led the Bulls...anywhere, you had players who were pretty much on an equal playing field who played well enough together, and at their best, they couldn't get past the second round because at their best they were not contenders. That is my opinion...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

If he is a go to guy, he is a number one option guy, not grading on a curve, in general, he is not a number one option guy.

Ask yourself, if Gordon is the number one go to guy do I win a championship?

Olajuwon was a go to guy. That is why I used his name. A consistent go to guy who could take over a series. The Bulls had no one like that...

You don't have to be a number one guy on a championship to be a number one option. Melo is nowhere near a title and was always a go to guy and number one option. Kevin Durant plays on a cr@p lotto team and was a number one option and go to guy.

 

[houheffna]

You don't have to be a number one guy on a championship to be a number one option. Melo is nowhere near a title and was always a go to guy and number one option. Kevin Durant plays on a cr@p lotto team and was a number one option and go to guy.

Why are you comparing Gordon to Durant and Melo? Gordon is not a top 25 player! Those are FRANCHISE PLAYERS!

 

[clonetrooper264]

houheffna wrote:

If he is a go to guy, he is a number one option guy, not grading on a curve, in general, he is not a number one option guy.

Ask yourself, if Gordon is the number one go to guy do I win a championship?

Olajuwon was a go to guy. That is why I used his name. A consistent go to guy who could take over a series. The Bulls had no one like that...

You can discount our opponents however you want. But they were still defending champions. They won rings and still were for the most part intact. YOu can discount BG's contribution, to me he was the most valuable player on that team. He pretty much was the offense in the 4th quarter when hinrich and deng would routinely disappear.

Seeing Elton Brand's career unfold, he certainly is the individual better player but he has never been able to put it together. Those early bulls teams he played on still had artest and miller and couldn't manage to win more than 16 games. His career results look very close to Zach Randolphs. He isn't the team cancer but he could never make an impact on the game results. ANd the last couple of years he has just fallen apart. I just see a question mark when I see elton brand. How can someone with so much talent and fundamentals not be able to buy a winning year.

Sigh if BG wasn't the offensive leader of that team I don't know how you evaluate basketball. He took all the tough shots, closed out games and led us in scoring. Those guys lead teams.

In my opinion, there was no Gordon Era, there was no Ben Gordon led the Bulls...anywhere, you had players who were pretty much on an equal playing field who played well enough together, and at their best, they couldn't get past the second round because at their best they were not contenders. That is my opinion...

Technically speaking, Kevin Durant hasn't even sniffed the playoffs so by that definition, he's not a franchise player either. Now in reality is he? Absolutely. Is Gordon? Probably not. But that doesn't mean the Ben Gordon would not be a very good piece to have on a championship team. He would be an excellent 3rd option or even a 2nd option in the right situation. IMO having Ben Gordon on your team can't do anything to hurt it.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

You don't have to be a number one guy on a championship to be a number one option. Melo is nowhere near a title and was always a go to guy and number one option. Kevin Durant plays on a cr@p lotto team and was a number one option and go to guy.

Why are you comparing Gordon to Durant and Melo? Gordon is not a top 25 player! Those are FRANCHISE PLAYERS!

Who called BG a franchise player? I know I certainly didn't. I have always said that BG was our number one option in the past and that we need another option in front of him to be a contending team. BG would be incredible as a second or third option, I always viewed a Rose, BG, Salmons, Bosh, Noah team as a contender. Thats why I view losing BG as a step backwards and not forwards. I just don't view Kirk or Deng as that third player. They are role players to me. Deng has that potential but he has major question marks with his health and showing up in the 4th. Those two are role players being payed big money. As a team handicapped by the LT, we aren't going anywhere with kirk on the roster and if Deng never takes a big step forward.