Jerry Reinsdorf on Ben Gordon

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

He was starting SF, he can swing to SG and since he can play a little D and he is cheaper, they decided to go with Salmons as starter.

You know, I like John Salmons. He's a fine player. He's no Ben Gordon. I didn't see the Celtics double team John once during that entire series. I can guarantee you, you will not see a game end next year like Game 5, with with Brad Miller at the free throw line, because his man (Perkins) was so aggresively trying to stop and trap Gordon.

One other thing about this play that says so much. The Celtics best defender, Rondo, is on Gordon. In a similar situation, will he be on Salmons or Rose next year? Of course, He'll be on Rose. How the hell can that be good for Derrick?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TzGrzs7-AI

 

[houheffna]

It kind of worked out now that we have Derrick Rose. But I think in the end, Derrick Rose and 2010 Free Agent won't be better than Ben Gordon, Andres Nocioni, and Pau Gasol, which are all parts we had to throw away to make room for the 2010 free agent. You can also throw in stuff like a 2008 MLE player, 2009 MLE player, 2010 MLE player, whatever we could get for leveraging Drew Gooden and Larry Hughes (or Ben Wallace's) expiring contracts.

If you think Gordon, Nocioni and Gasol could do anything worthwhile to the point where we don't take a shot at the great players coming out next year, you are thoroughly fooled. That team couldn't get past the second round and wouldn't have beaten Lebron or the Pistons in a seven game series. Just wouldn't have happened.

I don't get the Derrick Rose "kind of worked out" statement either.

So let me sum up Jerry’s thoughts. John Paxson thought that Kirk sucked so bad during the 07-08 season, that he told the Chairman BEFORE the lottery even occurred, “We really need a point guard”. The Bulls then lucked into Rose.

Why is that surprising? The year before, the Bulls thought Ben sucked so much they wanted a SG with size and some defensive ability so they drafted Thabo...it happens. It was a dumb move with Brandon Roy in the same draft but, they knew they needed a SG with size in the backcourt...

Vinny Del Negro, a man with no head coaching experience, balks at the initial contract offer. I guess you could say, "He turned it down". He asks for more money, and they give it to him. Ben Gordon (who put up 18+ in 31 freaking minutes) asks for more money, they refuse to give it to him. When he finally caves, they pull the contract off the table.

The Lakers did the same thing to Odom, you have a deadline to make a business decision. Gordon tried to call JR's bluff...byebye BG...

Think about it, BG was offered two contracts, BG tells them after the first (5/50) that he should be the highest paid. Wallace is making 15mil/per which means according to BG, the Bulls were off about 5mil. Then the next year, the Bulls make him another deal 6/54mil and give him a deadline, (I believe JR said 3 months, that is a long damn time to make a decision). Gordon decided to take the contract (giving the Bulls a 6mil per year "home discount"? I don't think so...) Gordon didn't meet the deadline, what was Reinsdorf to do? Go to Gordon on bended knee? Hell no! Gordon can tell his story walking.

It seems that relationship was doomed, and when Salmons came in, they knew they could clean out Gordon's locker at the end of the year and not worry about it. Believe me, when Reinsdorf talks about bad contract other teams have, Dumars giving Gordon 11.6mil a year for 5 years is more likely one of the bad contracts he is talking about.

The real villain in this situation is Gordon's agent, that is my opinion.

 

[Kush77]

Reinsdorf is an absolute joke. This franchise will be far better off when he's gone. Bottom line.

Gordon's role would be diminished. Really? That's the dumbest thing I ever heard. He can say that now because they didn't sign him. Some fans may buy that lame-ass excuse. Just like that lame-ass attempt to bring back Phil Jackson for 1 year and have Tim Floyd be his understudy. A desperate attempt to win the PR battle. BG is gone and Phil Jackson was gone. It's a joke.

If the Bulls signed Ben he would obviously have played. But they didn't sign him. So of course uncle Jerry is going to make up some pathetic reason like his role would be diminished.

Right. Just like BG's role was going to be diminished because he signed a 1-year tender (according to some).

The day Jerry goes away will be a great day in Chicago sports.

 

[houheffna]

Gordon's role would be diminished. Really? That's the dumbest thing I ever heard. He can say that now because they didn't sign him. Some fans may buy that lame-ass excuse. Just like that lame-ass attempt to bring back Phil Jackson for 1 year and have Tim Floyd be his understudy. A desperate attempt to win the PR battle. BG is gone and Phil Jackson was gone. It's a joke.

Comparing BG to Phil Jackson? One won 6 championships and the other couldn't get in the all-star game unless he bought a ticket. Phil is arguably the best coach in NBA history, BG is.............

I think the anxiety some of you feel is from you overvaluing BG. A decent player, good scorer, but he had glaring weaknesses too.

JR said that to take a cheap shot at BG. BG took his cheap shots by insinuating that the Bulls were not about winning. They have 6 banners hanging, twice as many as the Pistons. Why is JR wrong for retaliating. I wish he wouldn't have and had taken the high road, but he felt like coming back at BG and he did. JR pretty much called him a player of indifference talent wise and then called him "terrific". That was definitely a shot...

 

[??? ??????]

houheffna wrote:

Gordon's role would be diminished. Really? That's the dumbest thing I ever heard. He can say that now because they didn't sign him. Some fans may buy that lame-ass excuse. Just like that lame-ass attempt to bring back Phil Jackson for 1 year and have Tim Floyd be his understudy. A desperate attempt to win the PR battle. BG is gone and Phil Jackson was gone. It's a joke.

Comparing BG to Phil Jackson? One won 6 championships and the other couldn't get in the all-star game unless he bought a ticket. Phil is arguably the best coach in NBA history, BG is.............

I think the anxiety some of you feel is from you overvaluing BG. A decent player, good scorer, but he had glaring weaknesses too.

JR said that to take a cheap shot at BG. BG took his cheap shots by insinuating that the Bulls were not about winning. They have 6 banners hanging, twice as many as the Pistons. Why is JR wrong for retaliating. I wish he wouldn't have and had taken the high road, but he felt like coming back at BG and he did. JR pretty much called him a player of indifference talent wise and then called him "terrific". That was definitely a shot...

Phil Jackson is the best coach ever. If you're trying to set Gordon up to that level of success, of course he is going to fail. It's no different than when you're comparing him to Jordan, he's going to fail no matter what, because Jordan was so good.

Bottomline is that Ben Gordon was the best player to suit up in a Bulls uniform since the 1998 NBA Finals, and now he is gone, with nothing to show for it but cap space (who is apparently a great defender!).

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

So let me sum up Jerry’s thoughts. John Paxson thought that Kirk sucked so bad during the 07-08 season, that he told the Chairman BEFORE the lottery even occurred, “We really need a point guard”. The Bulls then lucked into Rose.

Why is that surprising? The year before, the Bulls thought Ben sucked so much they wanted a SG with size and some defensive ability so they drafted Thabo...it happens. It was a dumb move with Brandon Roy in the same draft but, they knew they needed a SG with size in the backcourt...

I find it surprising that

* Hinrich could earn 11 million during the 07-08 season, be counted upon as one of the 3 primary scorers, lead the team in minutes played, and manage to score over 20 in only 6 games. Yet somehow, his name rarely comes up when assigning blame to that disastrous season.

I find it surprising that

* Paxson would actually tell his boss, despite the fact that John had signed Kirk to a massive deal the year before, that "We really need a point guard." It only confirms my assessment of how bad the Captain was that year.

I find it surprising that

* The Bulls would offer their leading scorer Ben Gordon, during the 08 offseason, a contract with a per year (9 million) less than Kirk's (9.5 million). Gordon was rightly insulted.

I find it surprising that

* Somehow, someway, most of the press and fanbase avoided blaming Kirk's regression on the offensive and defensive end during that season as the primary reason why the Bulls sucked in 07-08. Apparently, only John Paxson ("We really need a point guard."), me, and Kush noticed.

I find it surprising that

* You think the Bulls drafting Thabo as a backup guard somehow meant that the Bulls thought Gordon sucked.

I find it surprising that

* You keep equating the Lakers pulling the contract offer off the table to what the Bulls did. Odom never tried to sign his offer. Ben did. What the Bulls did was much worse. Ben was a RESTRICTED free agent. Odom was not. The Bulls could pull the contract off the table, all the while knowing they would retain his services for at least another year. Lamar is free to go anywhere. Ben was not.

Ben wanted to be paid more than Luol. The past 5 years have shown he should be.

 

[houheffna]

Bottomline is that Ben Gordon was the best player to suit up in a Bulls uniform since the 1998 NBA Finals, and now he is gone, with nothing to show for it but cap space (who is apparently a great defender!).

Yeah, great, he was the tallest midget. Fantastic. That means nothing when you have no allstars, no superstars, and no chance of winning a championship. Letting him go is not a problem, letting him go for nothing is a bit of a problem...

You know, I like John Salmons. He's a fine player. He's no Ben Gordon. I didn't see the Celtics double team John once during that entire series. I can guarantee you, you will not see a game end next year like Game 5, with with Brad Miller at the free throw line, because his man (Perkins) was so aggresively trying to stop and trap Gordon.

One other thing about this play that says so much. The Celtics best defender, Rondo, is on Gordon. In a similar situation, will he be on Salmons or Rose next year? Of course, He'll be on Rose. How the hell can that be good for Derrick?

Well, go to the other side of the floor and Gordon is no Salmons or Hinrich.

In game 6 no one had to double Gordon, Gordon was on the bench. Who was the principal scorer for the Bulls? John Salmons. Best game of the whole season, Gordon was a non-factor.

 

[houheffna]

I find it surprising that

* Hinrich could earn 11 million during the 07-08 season, be counted upon as one of the 3 primary scorers, lead the team in minutes played, and manage to score over 20 in only 6 games. Yet somehow, his name rarely comes up when assigning blame to that disasterous season.

I find it surprising that

* Paxson would actually tell his boss, despite the fact that John had signed Kirk to a massive deal the year before, that "We really need a point guard." It only confirms my assessment of how bad the Captain was that year.

I find it surprising that

* The Bulls would offer their leading scorer Ben Gordon, during the 08 offseason, a contract with a per year (9 million) less than Kirk's (9.5 million). Gordon was rightly insulted.

I find it surprising that

* Somehow, someway, most of the press and fanbase avoided blaming Kirk's regression on the offensive and defensive end during that season as the primary reason why the Bulls sucked in 07-08. Apparently, only John Paxson ("We really need a point guard."), me, and Kush noticed.

I find it surprising that

* You think the Bulls drafting Thabo as a backup guard somehow meant that the Bulls thought Gordon sucked.

I find it surprising that

* You keep equating the Lakers pulling the contract offer off the table to what the Bulls did. Odom never tried to sign his offer. Ben did. What the Bulls did was much worse. Ben was a RESTRICTED free agent. Odom was not. The Bulls could pull the contract off the table, all the while knowing they would retain his services for at least another year. Lamar is free to go anywhere. Ben was not.

Ben wanted to be paid more than Luol. The past 5 years have shown he should be.
.

Number one 07-08 was a disastrous season...for everybody on the team. The principal blame is given to Ben Wallace if anybody. KC Johnson and Brian Hanley stated clearly that Wallace was a huge part of the Skiles situation.

Paxson talked about getting size in the backcourt too. If BG was not a liability defensively, they wouldn't have focused in on a SG who was taller and could play defense.

Gordon was insulted by the contract offer? Wrongfully so. He wasn't that insulted, he waited until after the deadline to accept the second and inferior contract of the two offered. He got a reality check and I don't think he wanted to play hardball like his agent did.

Whether restricted or not doesn't matter. An offer was made, a deadline was given. If you want the money, sign the contract by the stated deadline. He didn't sign, he didn't get the money.

The ultimate indication of how the Bulls feel about BG is stated when Reinsdorf speaks of the Bulls already making their minds up. Gordon didnt want to stay, the Bulls didnt want him around. So there is really nothing that could have been done. It is what it is.

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

Bottomline is that Ben Gordon was the best player to suit up in a Bulls uniform since the 1998 NBA Finals, and now he is gone, with nothing to show for it but cap space (who is apparently a great defender!).

Yeah, great, he was the tallest midget. Fantastic. That means nothing when you have no allstars, no superstars, and no chance of winning a championship. Letting him go is not a problem, letting him go for nothing is a bit of a problem...

You know, I like John Salmons. He's a fine player. He's no Ben Gordon. I didn't see the Celtics double team John once during that entire series. I can guarantee you, you will not see a game end next year like Game 5, with with Brad Miller at the free throw line, because his man (Perkins) was so aggresively trying to stop and trap Gordon.

One other thing about this play that says so much. The Celtics best defender, Rondo, is on Gordon. In a similar situation, will he be on Salmons or Rose next year? Of course, He'll be on Rose. How the hell can that be good for Derrick?

Well, go to the other side of the floor and Gordon is no Salmons or Hinrich.

In game 6 no one had to double Gordon, Gordon was on the bench. Who was the principal scorer for the Bulls? John Salmons. Best game of the whole season, Gordon was a non-factor.

Non-factor in game 6?

Check out my post with the video clip, I believe 4 posts down from last month:

http://www.bullspodcasters.com/forums?func=view&catid=5&id=18306#18381

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Bottomline is that Ben Gordon was the best player to suit up in a Bulls uniform since the 1998 NBA Finals, and now he is gone, with nothing to show for it but cap space (who is apparently a great defender!).

Yeah, great, he was the tallest midget. Fantastic. That means nothing when you have no allstars, no superstars, and no chance of winning a championship. Letting him go is not a problem, letting him go for nothing is a bit of a problem...

You know, I like John Salmons. He's a fine player. He's no Ben Gordon. I didn't see the Celtics double team John once during that entire series. I can guarantee you, you will not see a game end next year like Game 5, with with Brad Miller at the free throw line, because his man (Perkins) was so aggresively trying to stop and trap Gordon.

One other thing about this play that says so much. The Celtics best defender, Rondo, is on Gordon. In a similar situation, will he be on Salmons or Rose next year? Of course, He'll be on Rose. How the hell can that be good for Derrick?

Well, go to the other side of the floor and Gordon is no Salmons or Hinrich.

In game 6 no one had to double Gordon, Gordon was on the bench. Who was the principal scorer for the Bulls? John Salmons. Best game of the whole season, Gordon was a non-factor.

This is the most absurd post of yours I have seen. You do realize that every year there are normally 25 non competing teams and they don't think anything like that. How are you supposed to build for the future and resign a fa if you are not contending? That is absurd.


Wow one game Salmons outscored BG. Great work, I mean 1 out of 7 clearly proves your point, except for the other six games it was BG. But your right, the bulls did it against a wounded celtics team once without BG having a good game, excellent point. It couldn't have been the fact that BG was clearly injured or had foul trobule.

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

Well, go to the other side of the floor and Gordon is no Salmons or Hinrich.

In game 6 no one had to double Gordon, Gordon was on the bench. Who was the principal scorer for the Bulls? John Salmons. Best game of the whole season, Gordon was a non-factor.

Ben did play only 31 minutes or so in Game 6 because of foul trouble. Thank God we had Kirk to guard Allen and hold him down to 51. He would have scored 100 if God's gift to defense wasn't there.

Bulls went from up 91-81 to down 99-91 in that game. Gordon played less than a minute during this stretch because of foul trouble. You're right, he was a non-factor here. Get ready for a lot of streches like this next year.

8:49 81-91 Tyrus Thomas makes jumper
8:38 81-91 Brad Miller shooting foul (Glen Davis draws the foul)
8:38 Glen Davis makes free throw 1 of 2 82-91
8:38 82-91 Joakim Noah enters the game for Brad Miller
8:38 Glen Davis misses free throw 2 of 2 82-91
8:37 Glen Davis offensive rebound 82-91
8:32 Ray Allen makes 8-foot running jumper 84-91
8:07 84-91 Derrick Rose misses 21-foot jumper
8:07 Rajon Rondo defensive rebound 84-91
8:00 Glen Davis makes layup (Rajon Rondo assists) 86-91
7:52 Chicago full timeout
7:41 86-91 John Salmons misses layup
7:39 Paul Pierce defensive rebound 86-91
7:16 Glen Davis makes 16-foot two point shot (Rajon Rondo assists) 88-91
7:01 88-91 Kirk Hinrich misses 21-foot jumper
7:00 Kendrick Perkins defensive rebound 88-91
6:43 Ray Allen makes 28-foot three point jumper (Rajon Rondo assists) 91-91
6:30 91-91 Joakim Noah offensive goaltending
6:05 Rajon Rondo misses layup 91-91
6:03 Kendrick Perkins offensive rebound 91-91
6:01 Kendrick Perkins makes 6-foot hook shot 93-91
5:39 93-91 Chicago defensive rebound
5:39 93-91 Ben Gordon enters the game for Kirk Hinrich
5:24 Glen Davis traveling 93-91
5:24 93-91 Brad Miller enters the game for Joakim Noah
5:11 93-91 Derrick Rose bad pass (Paul Pierce steals)
4:58 93-91 Ben Gordon personal foul (Glen Davis draws the foul)
4:54 93-91 Ben Gordon personal foul (Ray Allen draws the foul)
4:54 93-91 Kirk Hinrich enters the game for Ben Gordon
4:54 93-91 Ben Gordon technical foul (1st technical foul)
4:54 Ray Allen makes technical free throw 94-91
5:39 94-91 Derrick Rose misses 19-foot jumper
4:39 Paul Pierce makes 21-foot two point shot 96-91
4:15 96-91 Kendrick Perkins blocks John Salmons's 25-foot three point jumper
4:13 Paul Pierce defensive rebound 96-91
3:53 Ray Allen misses layup 96-91
3:51 Kendrick Perkins offensive rebound 96-91
3:38 Paul Pierce makes 25-foot three point jumper (Kendrick Perkins assists) 99-91
3:34 Chicago 20 Sec. timeout
3:25 99-91 Kirk Hinrich misses 23-foot three point jumper
3:24 Kendrick Perkins defensive rebound 99-91
3:00 99-91 Brad Miller shooting foul (Rajon Rondo draws the foul)
3:00 Rajon Rondo misses free throw 1 of 2 99-91
3:00 Boston offensive rebound 99-91
3:00 Rajon Rondo misses free throw 2 of 2 99-91
3:00 99-91 John Salmons defensive rebound
2:47 99-93 Derrick Rose makes driving layup (John Salmons assists)
2:16 Rajon Rondo misses 21-foot jumper 99-93
2:15 99-93 John Salmons defensive rebound
2:08 99-95 John Salmons makes 6-foot jumper (Kirk Hinrich assists)
2:08 Kendrick Perkins shooting foul (John Salmons draws the foul) 99-95
2:08 full timeout
3:34 99-95 Ben Gordon enters the game for Tyrus Thomas
2:08 Tony Allen enters the game for Glen Davis 99-95
2:08 99-96 John Salmons makes free throw 1 of 1
1:49 Ray Allen makes 16-foot two point shot (Rajon Rondo assists) 101-96
1:39 101-96 John Salmons misses 25-foot three point jumper
1:38 101-96 Chicago defensive rebound
1:15 Tony Allen misses layup 101-96
1:14 101-96 Brad Miller defensive rebound
1:06 101-99 Brad Miller makes 25-foot three point jumper (Ben Gordon assists)

 

[??? ??????]

houheffna wrote:

I find it surprising that

* Hinrich could earn 11 million during the 07-08 season, be counted upon as one of the 3 primary scorers, lead the team in minutes played, and manage to score over 20 in only 6 games. Yet somehow, his name rarely comes up when assigning blame to that disasterous season.

I find it surprising that

* Paxson would actually tell his boss, despite the fact that John had signed Kirk to a massive deal the year before, that "We really need a point guard." It only confirms my assessment of how bad the Captain was that year.

I find it surprising that

* The Bulls would offer their leading scorer Ben Gordon, during the 08 offseason, a contract with a per year (9 million) less than Kirk's (9.5 million). Gordon was rightly insulted.

I find it surprising that

* Somehow, someway, most of the press and fanbase avoided blaming Kirk's regression on the offensive and defensive end during that season as the primary reason why the Bulls sucked in 07-08. Apparently, only John Paxson ("We really need a point guard."), me, and Kush noticed.

I find it surprising that

* You think the Bulls drafting Thabo as a backup guard somehow meant that the Bulls thought Gordon sucked.

I find it surprising that

* You keep equating the Lakers pulling the contract offer off the table to what the Bulls did. Odom never tried to sign his offer. Ben did. What the Bulls did was much worse. Ben was a RESTRICTED free agent. Odom was not. The Bulls could pull the contract off the table, all the while knowing they would retain his services for at least another year. Lamar is free to go anywhere. Ben was not.

Ben wanted to be paid more than Luol. The past 5 years have shown he should be.
.

Number one 07-08 was a disastrous season...for everybody on the team. The principal blame is given to Ben Wallace if anybody. KC Johnson and Brian Hanley stated clearly that Wallace was a huge part of the Skiles situation.

Paxson talked about getting size in the backcourt too. If BG was not a liability defensively, they wouldn't have focused in on a SG who was taller and could play defense.

Gordon was insulted by the contract offer? Wrongfully so. He wasn't that insulted, he waited until after the deadline to accept the second and inferior contract of the two offered. He got a reality check and I don't think he wanted to play hardball like his agent did.

Whether restricted or not doesn't matter. An offer was made, a deadline was given. If you want the money, sign the contract by the stated deadline. He didn't sign, he didn't get the money.

The ultimate indication of how the Bulls feel about BG is stated when Reinsdorf speaks of the Bulls already making their minds up. Gordon didnt want to stay, the Bulls didnt want him around. So there is really nothing that could have been done. It is what it is.

Ben Gordon didn't have a disastrous 07-08 season. He took a step back, but he still had a good season.

When the Bulls made the Larry Hughes trade, Gordon was averaging 20.2 points per a game on the season. Guys who average 20 a game get paid. But from that point forward Boylan threw Gordon under the bus, to try to gain favor with management by driving down the value of a contract for one of the team's upcoming free agents.

Gordon had 55.8 TS% in 07-08! It's not elite, but that's a good scoring efficiency. Luol Deng's career high during his stellar 06-07 season is 56.0 TS%. Deng never scored better than Gordon's awful 07-08 season any other time in his career.

Kirk Hinrich in his stellar 06-07 season, only had 55.9 TS%, a whopping 0.1 TS% better than Gordon's in Gordon's terrible year. Hinrich has never done better than Gordon's terrible 07-08 in any other year in his career.

What the 07-08 season really was, was everyone on the team playing like complete crap, EXCEPT for Ben Gordon. Not that it will be remembered that way, but that's what actually happened.

 

[TheStig]

Fred wrote:

houheffna wrote:

Bottomline is that Ben Gordon was the best player to suit up in a Bulls uniform since the 1998 NBA Finals, and now he is gone, with nothing to show for it but cap space (who is apparently a great defender!).

Yeah, great, he was the tallest midget. Fantastic. That means nothing when you have no allstars, no superstars, and no chance of winning a championship. Letting him go is not a problem, letting him go for nothing is a bit of a problem...

You know, I like John Salmons. He's a fine player. He's no Ben Gordon. I didn't see the Celtics double team John once during that entire series. I can guarantee you, you will not see a game end next year like Game 5, with with Brad Miller at the free throw line, because his man (Perkins) was so aggresively trying to stop and trap Gordon.

One other thing about this play that says so much. The Celtics best defender, Rondo, is on Gordon. In a similar situation, will he be on Salmons or Rose next year? Of course, He'll be on Rose. How the hell can that be good for Derrick?

Well, go to the other side of the floor and Gordon is no Salmons or Hinrich.

In game 6 no one had to double Gordon, Gordon was on the bench. Who was the principal scorer for the Bulls? John Salmons. Best game of the whole season, Gordon was a non-factor.

Non-factor in game 6?

Check out my post with the video clip, I believe 4 posts down from last month:

http://www.bullspodcasters.com/forums?func=view&catid=5&id=18306#18381

Fred, don't bother, he doesn't understand double teams or spacing. He just looked at the box score. He doesn't realize that even a 1 for 15 BG still demands double teams and keeps his defender at the three point line.

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

[

Number one 07-08 was a disastrous season...for everybody on the team. The principal blame is given to Ben Wallace if anybody. KC Johnson and Brian Hanley stated clearly that Wallace was a huge part of the Skiles situation.[/quote]

I can't speak for Hanley, but I can tell you that KC would not put the principal blame on Ben Wallace for 07-08. We had a conversation off the air regarding Wallace, and he mentioned that at least 3 current players on the team this year felt that the Wallace trade for Hughes was a bad move. KC basically agreed.

 

[houheffna]

Fred, don't bother, he doesn't understand double teams or spacing. He just looked at the box score. He doesn't realize that even a 1 for 15 BG still demands double teams and keeps his defender at the three point line.

Dude...remember what I said about you, your knowledge of basketball and manure? I apologized, don't make me regret that decision.

I can't speak for Hanley, but I can tell you that KC would not put the principal blame on Ben Wallace for 07-08. We had a conversation off the air regarding Wallace, and he mentioned that at least 3 current players on the team this year felt that the Wallace trade for Hughes was a bad move. KC basically agreed.

I think I said that the wrong way. The Skiles debacle was precipitated by Wallace. Wallace and his agent, I believe his agent is Arn Tellum, had a meeting with Reinsdorf and Paxson and the whole discussion was about Skiles and I guess Wallace called himself speaking for the team. But that precipitated the madness that ensued.

Ben did play only 31 minutes or so in Game 6 because of foul trouble. Thank God we had Kirk to guard Allen and hold him down to 51. He would have scored 100 if God's gift to defense wasn't there.

Bulls went from up 91-81 to down 99-91 in that game. Gordon played less than a minute during this stretch because of foul trouble. You're right, he was a non-factor here. Get ready for a lot of streches like this next year.

The fact is they won the game. Are you saying that if Gordon was in the game, that run would not have happened?

I don't think Hinrich is God's gift to defense anymore than I think Gordon is God's gift to offense.

 

[houheffna]

Ben Gordon didn't have a disastrous 07-08 season. He took a step back, but he still had a good season.

When the Bulls made the Larry Hughes trade, Gordon was averaging 20.2 points per a game on the season. Guys who average 20 a game get paid. But from that point forward Boylan threw Gordon under the bus, to try to gain favor with management by driving down the value of a contract for one of the team's upcoming free agents.

Gordon had 55.8 TS% in 07-08! It's not elite, but that's a good scoring efficiency. Luol Deng's career high during his stellar 06-07 season is 56.0 TS%. Deng never scored better than Gordon's awful 07-08 season any other time in his career.

Kirk Hinrich in his stellar 06-07 season, only had 55.9 TS%, a whopping 0.1 TS% better than Gordon's in Gordon's terrible year. Hinrich has never done better than Gordon's terrible 07-08 in any other year in his career.

What the 07-08 season really was, was everyone on the team playing like complete crap, EXCEPT for Ben Gordon. Not that it will be remembered that way, but that's what actually happened.

Who was the most efficient player on the team that year? And the year before? Deng, not Gordon. Gordon was the 3rd most efficient player in 2008 and the 4th most efficient in 2007, which some of you called his best year. According to efficiency rating, Hinrich did better than Gordon in what is considered by many Gordon's best year, 06-07.

Matter of fact, since BG came to town he has NEVER led the team in PER, NEVER. Hinrich twice, Deng twice, Miller last season, (or Rose if you want to count playing for the team the whole season). Where was Gordon last year, tied for 3rd on the team with..........John Salmons!!!

 

[wjb1492]

It's really not favorable to Ben to use the playoffs as any kind of measure of the team's "need" for him. He was far worse in the playoffs than the regular season by all objective measures. That's not intended as a reflection on Ben personally, because he was injured for part of it. As far as questioning the team's need for him, it's a fair issue. Proponents always point to the 4th quarter heroics, but there are other quarters.

Using gamescore as measure of productivity - and sidenote, I realize there are plenty of problems with gamescore, but it's available and if anything favors Ben as a measure of contribution -

Ben lead the team in gamescore 3 times - all losses. Game 6, which people have argued about here, was by far his worst game. He was the least or second least productive guy in the main 7 man rotation twice - both wins.

I happen to think it's a stupid argument - he was here for 5 years, and nothing he did either way in a single 7-game series should change his value. But it was the last basketball he played as a Bull so will undoubtedly get pointed to as anecdotal evidence.

I think I need to find a rock to crawl under until the season starts and there's something to talk about other than how much the FO/team suck and what a spectacular guy Ben is. By striking him down, they have only made him stronger, and all that jazz.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Fred, don't bother, he doesn't understand double teams or spacing. He just looked at the box score. He doesn't realize that even a 1 for 15 BG still demands double teams and keeps his defender at the three point line.

Dude...remember what I said about you, your knowledge of basketball and manure? I apologized, don't make me regret that decision.

I really don't care what you think of my basketball knowledge. I don't respond to your posts most of the time for a reason unless I am being attacked. I would appreciate not hearing from you and wish this forum had an ignore button.

 

[houheffna]

I really don't care what you think of my basketball knowledge. I don't respond to your posts most of the time for a reason unless I am being attacked. I would appreciate not hearing from you and wish this forum had an ignore button.

Quit crying! You can dish it but you can't take it....

http://www.bullspodcasters.com/forums?func=view&catid=5&id=21751&limit=15&start=60

You ***** and moan and try to get me banned for having a different opinion from you. I took it in stride, now you catch feelings? Do what you have to do, I don't give a damn...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

I really don't care what you think of my basketball knowledge. I don't respond to your posts most of the time for a reason unless I am being attacked. I would appreciate not hearing from you and wish this forum had an ignore button.

Quit crying! You can dish it but you can't take it....

http://www.bullspodcasters.com/forums?func=view&catid=5&id=21751&limit=15&start=60

You ***** and moan and try to get me banned for having a different opinion from you. I took it in stride, now you catch feelings? Do what you have to do, I don't give a damn...

I don't know why I am even replying to this but I was discussing ignoring you because you were fueling a fire on a day that 90% of the board was angry. Just so we don't have to have conversations like this. I don't enjoy your opinion and more importantly the way you present it. I routinely disagree with Shakes here but we can still discuss our opinion, you seem to have issues with a lot of people here and its mostly because of the way you present your opinion. That is all, I am not going to continue this nonsense, please don't feel obligated to reply to my posts and I will extend the same respect.