Jerry Reinsdorf on Ben Gordon

[TheStig]

Fred wrote:

houheffna wrote:

[

Number one 07-08 was a disastrous season...for everybody on the team. The principal blame is given to Ben Wallace if anybody. KC Johnson and Brian Hanley stated clearly that Wallace was a huge part of the Skiles situation.

I can't speak for Hanley, but I can tell you that KC would not put the principal blame on Ben Wallace for 07-08. We had a conversation off the air regarding Wallace, and he mentioned that at least 3 current players on the team this year felt that the Wallace trade for Hughes was a bad move. KC basically agreed.[/quote] Its also interesting how Wallace was corrupting our team but on Clevland he quickly became a valuable contributor. We really didn't use him right at all, I don't see why he couldn't have continued being a good bench player for us.

 

[Fred]

wjb1492 wrote:

Ben lead the team in gamescore 3 times - all losses. Game 6, which people have argued about here, was by far his worst game. He was the least or second least productive guy in the main 7 man rotation twice - both wins.

I happen to think it's a stupid argument - he was here for 5 years, and nothing he did either way in a single 7-game series should change his value. But it was the last basketball he played as a Bull so will undoubtedly get pointed to as anecdotal evidence.

I think I need to find a rock to crawl under until the season starts and there's something to talk about other than how much the FO/team suck and what a spectacular guy Ben is. By striking him down, they have only made him stronger, and all that jazz.

Does gamescore tell you that Rondo was assigned to Ben on that last play of Game 5? That kind of stuff doesn't show up on stat sheets. It will be more difficult for Derrick next year because he's gone.

Let's all try to get along here. I rarely agree with Hoeheffna, but I don't want to see him banned. For the most part, I like the Hinrich supporters on this site. Most are non-dronish.

 

[houheffna]

Does gamescore tell you that Rondo was assigned to Ben on that last play of Game 5? That kind of stuff doesn't show up on stat sheets. It will be more difficult for Derrick next year because he's gone.

Let's all try to get along here. I rarely agree with Hoeheffna, but I don't want to see him banned. For the most part, I like the Hinrich supporters on this site. Most are non-dronish.

Wow, its Houheffna, you just set me up for a barrage of jokes!

I pointed to a forum where I stated my opinions about Ben Gordon, I didn't get personal with anyone, I didn't disrespect anyone, the harsh tones came from elsewhere. Things got heated and I chose to respond in kind. Someone who suggests that I should be banned for not crying over BG and having a difference of opinion with whatever percentage of the board is calling me out for being irrational? If my opinion "fuels a fire" so be it. It was a fiery discussion but I presented the forum that I linked as evidence of how things unfolded. When I give my opinion, you have people on here who can only reply with a "Get him Fred!" I think that is playground instigating. And I will state it as such.

For the Stig, do what you do my man, no sweat off my back. You can reply to my posts, I don't care, its a free country. If I don't agree, I will state it. I made a statement that was unfortunate, I apologized, and you STILL tried to get an admin to block me for another statement made. Yet you didn't apologize for the tone you took which precipitated my response. And I don't expect you to. I said something to Kush, who, like Fred and Doug I respectfully disagree with most of the time. Then you interceded and attacked me, now you want to act like you are Saint Peter? I'm good on that....good luck to you, and I hope your opinions are heard, respected and NEVER censored.

 

[Shakes]

When JR says that BG is going to get less minutes, who do you think that's coming from? It has to be coming from his staff, ie guys like Pax, Gar & Vinny. I really doubt JR sits in his ivory tower and plots the minute distribution of the team.

I know it's fashionable to just play the dump on JR game, but lets be realistic here, do you honestly think he's that hands on? This is the same guy everyone complains doesn't even care about basketball, now you expect me to believe he sets the rotations for the team?

If you want to assign blame for the statements being made, assign it to the GM's office and/or the coaching staff. Ultimately although JR signs the cheques, it's those guys advice he's doing it under.

Note I also say the same about the Deng negotiation: although JR copped heat for personally handling it, you can't tell me that Pax & co didn't tell him the sort of price range they thought he was worth. It was probably just a case of JR feeling that with his business background he'd be better off handling the haggling. I think Pax gets off far too lightly if we just keep on putting all the blame for the bad decisions on JR (and I say this as someone who thinks Pax has generally done a good job).

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

When JR says that BG is going to get less minutes, who do you think that's coming from? It has to be coming from his staff, ie guys like Pax, Gar & Vinny. I really doubt JR sits in his ivory tower and plots the minute distribution of the team.

I know it's fashionable to just play the dump on JR game, but lets be realistic here, do you honestly think he's that hands on? This is the same guy everyone complains doesn't even care about basketball, now you expect me to believe he sets the rotations for the team?

If you want to assign blame for the statements being made, assign it to the GM's office and/or the coaching staff. Ultimately although JR signs the cheques, it's those guys advice he's doing it under.

Note I also say the same about the Deng negotiation: although JR copped heat for personally handling it, you can't tell me that Pax & co didn't tell him the sort of price range they thought he was worth. It was probably just a case of JR feeling that with his business background he'd be better off handling the haggling. I think Pax gets off far too lightly if we just keep on putting all the blame for the bad decisions on JR (and I say this as someone who thinks Pax has generally done a good job).

I really think you are undervaluing JR's role in the organization. He is much more involved than the average owner. He clearly forced BG out, Pax has wanted him to stay for awhile otherwise he would hve traded him. Plus don't you remember how involved JR was in the coaching interviews, Kobe rumors and Ben Wallace signing. I always got the impression that pax didn't want wallace, I don't have any articles but it always seemed like he wanted to keep TC.

 

[??? ??????]

TheStig wrote:

Shakes wrote:

When JR says that BG is going to get less minutes, who do you think that's coming from? It has to be coming from his staff, ie guys like Pax, Gar & Vinny. I really doubt JR sits in his ivory tower and plots the minute distribution of the team.

I know it's fashionable to just play the dump on JR game, but lets be realistic here, do you honestly think he's that hands on? This is the same guy everyone complains doesn't even care about basketball, now you expect me to believe he sets the rotations for the team?

If you want to assign blame for the statements being made, assign it to the GM's office and/or the coaching staff. Ultimately although JR signs the cheques, it's those guys advice he's doing it under.

Note I also say the same about the Deng negotiation: although JR copped heat for personally handling it, you can't tell me that Pax & co didn't tell him the sort of price range they thought he was worth. It was probably just a case of JR feeling that with his business background he'd be better off handling the haggling. I think Pax gets off far too lightly if we just keep on putting all the blame for the bad decisions on JR (and I say this as someone who thinks Pax has generally done a good job).

I really think you are undervaluing JR's role in the organization. He is much more involved than the average owner. He clearly forced BG out, Pax has wanted him to stay for awhile otherwise he would hve traded him. Plus don't you remember how involved JR was in the coaching interviews, Kobe rumors and Ben Wallace signing. I always got the impression that pax didn't want wallace, I don't have any articles but it always seemed like he wanted to keep TC.

I think Paxson probably wanted to sign Ben Wallace and keep Tyson Chandler. Paxson and Chandler always had a good relationship. When Chandler got traded this past trade deadline, Paxson kept mentioning Chandler as a really good player who got traded in a cap relief move.

And Gordon was pretty close with Paxson too. Paxson was obviously thrown out of the negotiations, because he would have wanted to give Gordon more money.

 

[Dpauley23]

I just think that Paxson wanted to keep Chandler and not sign Wallace. As many local and even national reporter have pointed out it was Reinsdorf move were Paxson had to take the heat. Also if Paxson wanted Chandler so bad at the deadline he could of easily gotten him for Noah and Gooden

 

[??? ??????]

Dpauley23 wrote:

I just think that Paxson wanted to keep Chandler and not sign Wallace. As many local and even national reporter have pointed out it was Reinsdorf move were Paxson had to take the heat. Also if Paxson wanted Chandler so bad at the deadline he could of easily gotten him for Noah and Gooden

Would New Orleans trade him to us? Yes. Would Reinsdorf let us trade for him? Probably no.

 

[wjb1492]

Fred wrote:

wjb1492 wrote:

Ben lead the team in gamescore 3 times - all losses. Game 6, which people have argued about here, was by far his worst game. He was the least or second least productive guy in the main 7 man rotation twice - both wins.

I happen to think it's a stupid argument - he was here for 5 years, and nothing he did either way in a single 7-game series should change his value. But it was the last basketball he played as a Bull so will undoubtedly get pointed to as anecdotal evidence.

I think I need to find a rock to crawl under until the season starts and there's something to talk about other than how much the FO/team suck and what a spectacular guy Ben is. By striking him down, they have only made him stronger, and all that jazz.

Does gamescore tell you that Rondo was assigned to Ben on that last play of Game 5? That kind of stuff doesn't show up on stat sheets. It will be more difficult for Derrick next year because he's gone.

Let's all try to get along here. I rarely agree with Hoeheffna, but I don't want to see him banned. For the most part, I like the Hinrich supporters on this site. Most are non-dronish.

Yeah, you pretty much skipped a big part of what I said there. Ben didn't play well in the playoffs - and it doesn't matter at all because (a) he was injured, and (b) after 5 years his value was known. Disagreed upon frequently, but known. Basing arguments either direction on anecdotal evidence doesn't work, unless you want to make a full qualitative study of it and go through a couple hundred games. (However, gamescore across games for an individual does back up that individual's good games versus bad games. Ben was bad in game 6, substantially bad by his own standard - it happens, but again that one game is meaningless in the context of his overall value to the team.)

Nor did I mention Kirk once, but thanks for bringing him up for no reason.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Gordon's role would be diminished. Really? That's the dumbest thing I ever heard. He can say that now because they didn't sign him. Some fans may buy that lame-ass excuse. Just like that lame-ass attempt to bring back Phil Jackson for 1 year and have Tim Floyd be his understudy. A desperate attempt to win the PR battle. BG is gone and Phil Jackson was gone. It's a joke.

Comparing BG to Phil Jackson? One won 6 championships and the other couldn't get in the all-star game unless he bought a ticket. Phil is arguably the best coach in NBA history, BG is.............

I think the anxiety some of you feel is from you overvaluing BG. A decent player, good scorer, but he had glaring weaknesses too.

JR said that to take a cheap shot at BG. BG took his cheap shots by insinuating that the Bulls were not about winning. They have 6 banners hanging, twice as many as the Pistons. Why is JR wrong for retaliating. I wish he wouldn't have and had taken the high road, but he felt like coming back at BG and he did. JR pretty much called him a player of indifference talent wise and then called him "terrific". That was definitely a shot...

Wasn't comparing the accomplishments of Phil Jackson to Ben Gordon.

I was comparing uncle Jerry's lame-ass attempts at trying to win the PR battle. I guess it worked on you. But then again you thought Gordon wasn't important anyway.

6 banners hanging in the UC has nothing to do with uncle Jerry. That's all because of you know who. The sooner Jerry crawls under a rock, the better.

 

[Diddy1122]

Fred wrote:

wjb1492 wrote:

Ben lead the team in gamescore 3 times - all losses. Game 6, which people have argued about here, was by far his worst game. He was the least or second least productive guy in the main 7 man rotation twice - both wins.

I happen to think it's a stupid argument - he was here for 5 years, and nothing he did either way in a single 7-game series should change his value. But it was the last basketball he played as a Bull so will undoubtedly get pointed to as anecdotal evidence.

I think I need to find a rock to crawl under until the season starts and there's something to talk about other than how much the FO/team suck and what a spectacular guy Ben is. By striking him down, they have only made him stronger, and all that jazz.

Does gamescore tell you that Rondo was assigned to Ben on that last play of Game 5? That kind of stuff doesn't show up on stat sheets. It will be more difficult for Derrick next year because he's gone.

Let's all try to get along here. I rarely agree with Hoeheffna, but I don't want to see him banned. For the most part, I like the Hinrich supporters on this site. Most are non-dronish.

Agreed. I've debated ad nasuem with Hou about BG & his value to this team & though we've strongly disagree with each other, his responses are usually well-thought & intelligent & he never backs down from his position. It's great to see, since I think we can all agree that the vast majority of us on here are avid BG supporters.

With that said, Fred you need to get Hou on the podcast. I think it would be a great debate & he wouldn't get torched like Gorches did a few months back.

I'm actually really happy Reinsdork agreed to the interview cuz it's been pretty slow on the boards lately with nothing to really discuss. Also, it just proves my point that he knows squat about basketball & how to build a winning team.

 

[Shakes]

I really don't see JR getting involved in the coaching search and wanting to meet with D'Antoni being unusual: what I would find unusual was a business owner agreeing to pay someone over 4 million bucks a year without setting up an interview with them first. To me that's not being overly hands on, it's the sort of due diligence you'd expect any sensible person to do. Look at his quote about the coach in the interview: he's taking a very hands off approach, saying it's not his role to talk about it, that the GM is the guy to ask those questions to.

As far as Ben Wallace goes, blaming JR is really giving Pax a get out of jail free card on that one. You know the best move Pax could have made that summer? Signing nobody and saving the cap space. Given everyone believes JR to be profit motivated, do you think he wouldn't have been all over that move?

 

[Diddy1122]

houheffna wrote:

Reinsdorf messed up in one aspect of this interview. He should have just said, "we are not going to match 11.5 per year over 5 years for Ben Gordon" JR offered him contracts 2 years straight. He didn't take them. Instead of talking playing time, he should have left it at that. Well, if it was me, I would have said something about his "winning" statement. As if signing him is synonymous with a commitment to winning...

Secondly, when was Salmons part of the guard rotation last year?

He was starting SF, he can swing to SG and since he can play a little D and he is cheaper, they decided to go with Salmons as starter.

And this is where I have a problem. Salmons is not a proven 2. He's played the 3 his whole career. Now he's definitely better defensively than BG, agree there, but he's certainly not as quick & doesn't have the greatest lateral movement. His length is what helps him. When he starts playing against smaller quicker guards at the 2 position, I think it's going to be a struggle for him. Salmons should have been the answer at the 3 because he's better than Deng & Deng will NEVER EVER be an All-Star (once again JR laid a stinky in his depends).

I've said it before & I'll say it again, Duke does not produce All-Stars. And if they do, they have injury issues most of their careers (i.e. Hill, Boozer, Brand). Duke is a system. Their players are system players. It's been proven over the years that a great career at Duke rarely turns into a great or even good NBA career. I would say Duke produces the best role players in the NBA, guys who do alot of the little things well but nothing really great. The biggest mistake was overvaluing Deng, who when all is said & done will have a Mike Dunleavy-esque career.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

I really don't see JR getting involved in the coaching search and wanting to meet with D'Antoni being unusual: what I would find unusual was a business owner agreeing to pay someone over 4 million bucks a year without setting up an interview with them first. To me that's not being overly hands on, it's the sort of due diligence you'd expect any sensible person to do. Look at his quote about the coach in the interview: he's taking a very hands off approach, saying it's not his role to talk about it, that the GM is the guy to ask those questions to.

As far as Ben Wallace goes, blaming JR is really giving Pax a get out of jail free card on that one. You know the best move Pax could have made that summer? Signing nobody and saving the cap space. Given everyone believes JR to be profit motivated, do you think he wouldn't have been all over that move?

It actually is pretty unusual espically to Dan Tony who called out the bulls for dragging their feet in the process. He had obviously never gone through that before. NY also didn't do business that way and thats why he signed there. Come to think of it, I don't know any other team that does that besides dallas with Cuban. Owners typically either approve or decline what the gm aggres on, not personally get involved in negotiations or interviews.

Ben Wallace was JR's choice for marketing reasons, he was allover the bulls website and billboards. He also used it as an excuse to cut TC's longer deal off the books. He actually saved money by signing Wallace and trading TC, it was a sham of a demonstration to spend money. I also find it amazing how this team has the top capologist in the league and can't figure out how to resign their own key free agents or account for higher rookie contracts.

 

[Shakes]

They didn't sign Ben Gordon because they didn't want to. Personally I think that at what he signed for they probably would have let him go if they were 50 million under the tax. There's really nothing out there that says the Bulls were desperate to bring Gordon back but couldn't afford him. Instead it's all been about how the Bulls didn't rate Gordon being worth the asking price. I really don't see why JR is even in the discussion at this point.

I'm not saying JR is a great owner or anything. I'm just saying the way some fans act it's like he's the great evil that's holding back the franchise. You know what's holding back the franchise? The fact that despite an embarrassing number of lottery picks over the last decade we haven't drafted ourselves an all star. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not some Scrooge McDuck owner doing that, it's a combination of bad luck and bad planning.

Yes JR hasn't paid tax, but there are two types of teams that pay tax: contenders and ones with a bunch of untradeable contracts. The Bulls haven't been in a position of being contenders, so I'm really finding it hard to get worked up about the Bulls decision not to load their roster down with even more overpaid players than they have.

 

[houheffna]

They didn't sign Ben Gordon because they didn't want to. Personally I think that at what he signed for they probably would have let him go if they were 50 million under the tax. There's really nothing out there that says the Bulls were desperate to bring Gordon back but couldn't afford him. Instead it's all been about how the Bulls didn't rate Gordon being worth the asking price. I really don't see why JR is even in the discussion at this point.

I'm not saying JR is a great owner or anything. I'm just saying the way some fans act it's like he's the great evil that's holding back the franchise. You know what's holding back the franchise? The fact that despite an embarrassing number of lottery picks over the last decade we haven't drafted ourselves an all star. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not some Scrooge McDuck owner doing that, it's a combination of bad luck and bad planning.

Yes JR hasn't paid tax, but there are two types of teams that pay tax: contenders and ones with a bunch of untradeable contracts. The Bulls haven't been in a position of being contenders, so I'm really finding it hard to get worked up about the Bulls decision not to load their roster down with even more overpaid players than they have.

I think that is what some people fail to understand. The Bulls didn't want Gordon, and I dont think Gordon wanted the Bulls. There is really nothing to lament. My point is that we didn't lose a great player nor did we lose an irreplaceable part. We lost a decent player, and decent players should come down the road soon.

 

[Rerisen]

houheffna wrote:

Matter of fact, since BG came to town he has NEVER led the team in PER, NEVER. Hinrich twice, Deng twice, Miller last season, (or Rose if you want to count playing for the team the whole season). Where was Gordon last year, tied for 3rd on the team with..........John Salmons!!!

Um... I don't know where you are getting your stats. But they are wrong. Gordon led the Bulls in PER *last season* if you don't count Miller's 27 games. Which I don't since he didn't contribute for us for a full year, and his PER for his full season was under Gordon's. Either way, Gordon was above Rose.

2009 PER Rankings
Gordon 17.0
Noah 16.5
Salmons 16.0
Rose 16.0

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2009.html
http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2009/Bulls.htm

You may have PER (Player Efficiency Rating) confused with NBA.com's rather simpler Efficiency rating which doesn't weight stats at all. Serious NBA statisticians consider PER vastly superior.

 

[houheffna]

You are right, didn't know there was a difference. However my point was that people use certain stats (as I did unknowingly) to support a certain point. When even the manipulator knows that the point is outlandish. That is what I am talking about concerning statistical integrity.

However, I find it interesting that using either efficiency rating, the best Bull in the post-Jordan era was Elton Brand. And that makes sense.

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

We lost a decent player, and decent players should come down the road soon.

Let me beat a dead horse one more time. No one is coming down the road like Ben Gordon. The combination of skills he brought to the table are rare. I'm 35, and he's clearly the best 3-point shooter I've ever seen in a Bulls uniform, even better than Hodges. Craig Hodges had Jordan and Pippen to set him up, and a decent post player in Cartwright. For 4 years, Ben had little on the offensive end to attract attention. Gordon is a nightmare to guard, because you have to guard him so damn far out. Just think about your playing career or any pickup game: The quick guys with 3-point range take the life out of you.

There's a good chance we won't see these 3 facts said about 1 player again:
Lead the team in scoring for 4 straight years
Lead the team in 3 pointers for 4 straight years
Shot over 40% from the 3-point line in every year of his career here

It's just a fact. Most scorers aren't killers from the 3-point line...even a shooter/scorer like Michael Redd hasn't hit 40% from the 3-point line in the past 6 years. Dirk has only hit 40% twice, Joe Johnson once. Kevin Durant and Granger are the only guys who can approach Ben in terms of range, and neither can boast of 5 years over 40% from long distance.

And this fact keeps hitting me in the face: In this history of Bulls, only 5 guys have scored 20+ for a Bulls team that was .500 or better. Only five:

Love, Walker, Jordan, Pippen, Gordon. Gordon did it twice.

He's way better than a "decent" player. And I really hate to say this, but by this time next year, you'll agree with me.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

They didn't sign Ben Gordon because they didn't want to. Personally I think that at what he signed for they probably would have let him go if they were 50 million under the tax. There's really nothing out there that says the Bulls were desperate to bring Gordon back but couldn't afford him. Instead it's all been about how the Bulls didn't rate Gordon being worth the asking price. I really don't see why JR is even in the discussion at this point.

I'm not saying JR is a great owner or anything. I'm just saying the way some fans act it's like he's the great evil that's holding back the franchise. You know what's holding back the franchise? The fact that despite an embarrassing number of lottery picks over the last decade we haven't drafted ourselves an all star. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not some Scrooge McDuck owner doing that, it's a combination of bad luck and bad planning.

Yes JR hasn't paid tax, but there are two types of teams that pay tax: contenders and ones with a bunch of untradeable contracts. The Bulls haven't been in a position of being contenders, so I'm really finding it hard to get worked up about the Bulls decision not to load their roster down with even more overpaid players than they have.

Then they are even dumber, if they never wanted BG they should have traded him for an assest. Instead they let him walk for nothing. But the bottom line is, why wouldn't you want a hard working, young, leading scorer off a playoff team. I think that thinking needs to be examined much more, because we obviously let a good player walk and we didn't have anyone else at his postion to take his minutes, thats why the coach started him and played him big minutes. What BG does on the court can't just be excused or dismissed by he is a greedy midget line of thinking because he certainly didn't play small last year and he was willing to accept a lesser offer from us last year.