KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Deadlin

[TheStig]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

houheffna wrote:

The track record of ineptness by Bulls management is a lot longer than anyone else you want to blame as well. I really don't need to go through the list of things this management unit (JT, Krause, Pax, Foreman) have botched.

The Bulls could of won the 7th title is the team stayed together. Had the relationships been better, the team would have stayed together, thus they would have won in 99. It falls on management at the end of the day.

My opinions in that last post have zero to do with KC Johnson's email to a fan. I think you know my feelings were that way already.

Bulls management have botched a lot of things over the years, but you (and others) want to absolve them by saying "hey, they won 6 titles." Yeah, in spite of the management, not because of.

In spite of management...bringing in these guys to begin with...putting the talent together? In spite of that? Okay.

I think management has made a lot of mistakes, but to say that the Bulls won 6 championships without the help of management is just being mean-spirited. You don't need to go through the list of botches by management, I don't need to go through the successes. I believe that whoever it is, despite my bias against them...I give credit where credit is due. It is what I would expect from critics if I were being critiqued. Give me credit for the good, and don't just blame me for the bad. I think you know better. You admitted as much on your show.

Ironic that you changed that avatar quick...

I don't think anyone is trying to say that management had nothing to do with the titles. It is just amazingly easier when you inherit the goat. But there have been moves they have made that make no sense and I don't understand the need to be the bad guy. Phil Jackson may have been the best in the us against them mind games but he didn't just make it up. I don't understand the benefit of alienating the team. If they had any sory of positive relationship with players or coaches, they would have had the team come back to defend the title.

 

[houheffna]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

Then again, maybe not, there were other mitigating circumstances besides management that contributed to the breakup. It is what it is.

Management had nothing to do with the winning of championships, just buying the team with Jordan on it is EXACTLY what is being said. And that is wrong, no matter how the situation is investigated or whatever slant people want to look at things...that perception is wrong. It is sooooooo far from factual its ridiculous. Jordan was just as culpable as management...just as hard to get along with...just as childish...and should be held to the same standard as management.

 

[TheStig]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

houheffna wrote:

Then again, maybe not, there were other mitigating circumstances besides management that contributed to the breakup. It is what it is.

Management had nothing to do with the winning of championships, just buying the team with Jordan on it is EXACTLY what is being said. And that is wrong, no matter how the situation is investigated or whatever slant people want to look at things...that perception is wrong. It is sooooooo far from factual its ridiculous. Jordan was just as culpable as management...just as hard to get along with...just as childish...and should be held to the same standard as management.

Thats why they are management. They manage the situation. If they don't do that, they are rather worthless since I doubt JR or Krause could bring much on the court. It is their job to manage personalities, budgets and rosters. Ultimately the responsibility falls on them, thats why they are management.

 

[houheffna]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

And they did....largely by ignoring him. It is also the job of professionals to be professionals. They managed the situation....but why is the responsibility solely on them? Its a two way situation. Jordan had to manage himself as a grown man. Simple as that. A lot of his actions were just as inexcusable as anybody else in the organization. They did their part to manage the personnel to 6 championships...a rather admirable job at that time I think...

 

[Diddy1122]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

houheffna wrote:

Diddy:

You are mistaken...you pretty much called BG unprofessional, Reinsdorf would agree...he came out to the media every year for three years straight. I have said before that someone was giving him bad advice. You don't negotiate in the media, and you definitely don't negotiate with Reinsdorf in the media.

No I'm not mistaken & no I didn't. I said "unprofessional & Ben Gordon don't mix". I never even came close to calling BG unprofessional because HE'S NOT. DON'T PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH! :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

And he didn't negotiate in the media. He was open with the media. There's a difference. He's always been that way. They asked him questions & he answered them truthfully & respectfully. When a reporter asks the leading scorer & best player on the team "Do you think you should be the highest paid?" what's he gonna say, "No, I think I should be paid less than our mediocre PG & china doll SF." Get real. And he even said he'd be happy making what Kirk makes. HE WANTED TO SIGN A DEAL THAT WOULD HAVE DONE THAT. It was Reinsdork putting an ultimatum on his contract signing that was completely unprofessional. Name me any other owner in the league who would do that to their leading scorer.

 

[TheStig]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

houheffna wrote:

And they did....largely by ignoring him. It is also the job of professionals to be professionals. They managed the situation....but why is the responsibility solely on them? Its a two way situation. Jordan had to manage himself as a grown man. Simple as that. A lot of his actions were just as inexcusable as anybody else in the organization. They did their part to manage the personnel to 6 championships...a rather admirable job at that time I think...

I think you are misunderstanding me. I think that management isn't solely responsible but ultimately responsible. There is a big difference. I also think MJ didn't break up the bulls, he just only wanted everyone back. Jackson played a much bigger part in the break up but I do think that JR was a 100% on board he wouldn't have given Pip, longley, Buchler, and Kerr the big long term deals they got. That would be a lot of money for one last hooray. It was one thing to pay MJ a huge deal and reupping Rodman but we are talking about an additional 100 Mill in deals.

 

[houheffna]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

No I'm not mistaken & no I didn't. I said "unprofessional & Ben Gordon don't mix". I never even came close to calling BG unprofessional because HE'S NOT. DON'T PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH!

And he didn't negotiate in the media. He was open with the media. There's a difference. He's always been that way. They asked him questions & he answered them truthfully & respectfully. When a reporter asks the leading scorer & best player on the team "Do you think you should be the highest paid?" what's he gonna say, "No, I think I should be paid less than our mediocre PG & china doll SF." Get real. And he even said he'd be happy making what Kirk makes. HE WANTED TO SIGN A DEAL THAT WOULD HAVE DONE THAT. It was Reinsdork putting an ultimatum on his contract signing that was completely unprofessional. Name me any other owner in the league who would do that to their leading scorer.

There was no ultimatum...there was a deadline...difference there. Gordon repeatedly talked about his contract status with the media...a "no comment" would have been suffice. I didn't put words in your mouth. You said that talking in the media about contracts, which is a personal subject was unprofessional and that Gordon wouldn't do such a thing. I am saying that he did just that, so you are pretty much calling Gordon unprofessional.

I am not the one that needs to get real here. He's Ben Gordon, not Ben Ghandhi. He is not Mr. Perfect in this situation...and back then, he wasn't considered the best player on the team, by the Bulls or many fans...sorry to break that news to you...

 

[Diddy1122]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

houheffna wrote:

No I'm not mistaken & no I didn't. I said "unprofessional & Ben Gordon don't mix". I never even came close to calling BG unprofessional because HE'S NOT. DON'T PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH!

And he didn't negotiate in the media. He was open with the media. There's a difference. He's always been that way. They asked him questions & he answered them truthfully & respectfully. When a reporter asks the leading scorer & best player on the team "Do you think you should be the highest paid?" what's he gonna say, "No, I think I should be paid less than our mediocre PG & china doll SF." Get real. And he even said he'd be happy making what Kirk makes. HE WANTED TO SIGN A DEAL THAT WOULD HAVE DONE THAT. It was Reinsdork putting an ultimatum on his contract signing that was completely unprofessional. Name me any other owner in the league who would do that to their leading scorer.

There was no ultimatum...there was a deadline...difference there. Gordon repeatedly talked about his contract status with the media...a "no comment" would have been suffice. I didn't put words in your mouth. You said that talking in the media about contracts, which is a personal subject was unprofessional and that Gordon wouldn't do such a thing. I am saying that he did just that, so you are pretty much calling Gordon unprofessional.

I am not the one that needs to get real here. He's Ben Gordon, not Ben Ghandhi. He is not Mr. Perfect in this situation...and back then, he wasn't considered the best player on the team, by the Bulls or many fans...sorry to break that news to you...

I never, EVER, said "that talking in the media about contracts, which is a personal subject was unprofessional". Never said it. Go back & check my post. I said he never "spoke out to the media", which you said he did. There's a difference between just speaking to the media when they approach you & speaking out through the media. He never called a press conference, ala Lance Briggs, saying I'll never play for this organization or I've been wronged by this organization. But that's the way you seem to be trying to portray it. He answered questions honestly when approached by the media, like a good professional player would. He was irritated & frustrated by the whole situation but he never took any cheap shots & never said anything that would even remotely mess up negotiations with a "normal" owner. Plain & simple, JR's bias towards either BG or his agent costs the Bulls a good SG who was lights out in clutch situations & would have been a nice piece to a championship team. Not the main piece, but a solid piece that allows the team to focus on getting a good low post presence. The organization instead decided to place all their hopes into a player who's never played the 2 in his career & never averaged more than 12ppg other than in 1 season.

And BG doesn't say "No comment" because, as I stated, he's always been open & honest with the media. JR told him "take it or leave it", there was no negotiating & when Ben was asked about it he answered honestly because that's how it went down. I'm not trying to say BG was Mr. Perfect but he was not this complainer you are trying to make him out to be. When his offer was pulled when he wanted to sign, he didn't cry & ***** & not show up to camp. He put his hard hat on, got his lunch pal, & went to work. This organization treated this kid like crap for almost his entire tenure here & BG never said 1 bad thing about it. Not 1. If that's not professionalism then I don't know what is.

 

[Diddy1122]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

And to add to my point further, Gar & JR personally handled the Deng singing, flying out to London, wining & dining him, & rubbing lotion all over his heiny telling him that it's special & different from everyone elses. That same year, JR wouldn't even meet with Gordon. And when he was offered a contract, it was nearly $20mill less than Deng's, the player he outplayed all 07-08.

So Deng regresses & gets a $20mill raise in his offer, & BG leads the team in scoring, being jerked back & forth between the bench & starting line-up & not once complaining about any of it, gets a $2mill decrease in his offer. Please explain the logic there, explain the professionalism displayed by the Bulls front office during that train wreck of contract negotiations?

And guess who never badmouthed the organization, refused to play, or complained constantly through the media when the organization had slighted him time & time again, essentially telling him "your not that important to us, this is what we think your worth, you can take it, or you can sit & spin"? Ben Gordon, that's who.

 

[TheStig]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

Diddy1122 wrote:

And to add to my point further, Gar & JR personally handled the Deng singing, flying out to London, wining & dining him, & rubbing lotion all over his heiny telling him that it's special & different from everyone elses. That same year, JR wouldn't even meet with Gordon. And when he was offered a contract, it was nearly $20mill less than Deng's, the player he outplayed all 07-08.

So Deng regresses & gets a $20mill raise in his offer, & BG leads the team in scoring, being jerked back & forth between the bench & starting line-up & not once complaining about any of it, gets a $2mill decrease in his offer. Please explain the logic there, explain the professionalism displayed by the Bulls front office during that train wreck of contract negotiations?

And guess who never badmouthed the organization, refused to play, or complained constantly through the media when the organization had slighted him time & time again, essentially telling him "your not that important to us, this is what we think your worth, you can take it, or you can sit & spin"? Ben Gordon, that's who.

You know what. JR has his high morals in negotiations but no one has lost when they didn't take his offer no one can refuse. BG certainly didn't lose, he got more money on a team that showed him the love he should have been getting here and is on a better team. What did JR win? An excuse to win Kirk Hinrich. The chance to finally rid himself of a player that he could have traded for some real assests? This is why the bulls suck because even though BG isn't in his master plan of suckitude, he could have easily traded him for something good. But what did we get? Nothing, not even a stinkin trade excemption, which wouldn't do use any good becasue we are scared of the LT. Yeah we won this one against the evil BG alright.

 

[Diddy1122]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

But Ben was traded. He was traded for cap space for year 2000 redux next season.

 

[houheffna]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

Because the media asks you a question does not mean you have to respond. Again, a simple "no comment" would be suffice. This "They asked ol Honest Ben a question so he just had to answer it because he is Honest Ben" stuff notwithstanding, to respond is to participate. He was not without culpability. I am sure there are some questions that the media will ask he won't answer. So he should have been quiet when asked about the status of contract negotiations then...its the professional thing to do.

 

[TheStig]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

Diddy1122 wrote:

But Ben was traded. He was traded for cap space for year 2000 redux next season.

Is it me or is watching Kirk Hinrich this year absolutely unbearable. His defense is even bad, nowhere as bad as his shooting but he got lit up by Crawford the other night.

 

[Diddy1122]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

TheStig wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

But Ben was traded. He was traded for cap space for year 2000 redux next season.

Is it me or is watching Kirk Hinrich this year absolutely unbearable. His defense is even bad, nowhere as bad as his shooting but he got lit up by Crawford the other night.

He was putrid again tonight, going 1-6 in 20mins, allowing Rondo to get anywhere he wanted on the floor. And let's not forget his bad entry pass last night that resulted in a turnover that nearly cost us the game. Injury or no, Hinrich has been an utter disaster up to this point with no relief in sight.

I swear when Kirk hit his first shot after going 0-15 in the previous 2 games, you could hear Neil Funk having an orgasm. It went something like this:

Kirk from the corner....yeeEEEEESSS!!! Oh...oh my..oh my...I need a cigarette.

 

[pinkizdead]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

if you took away rondo's ability to drive to the basket, as well as his ability to set his team mates up for good looks, and his athleticism, i think you'd have hinrich, a guy who cant shoot well that's got mediocre court vision and no athleticism to rely on.

 

[TheStig]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

Diddy1122 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

But Ben was traded. He was traded for cap space for year 2000 redux next season.

Is it me or is watching Kirk Hinrich this year absolutely unbearable. His defense is even bad, nowhere as bad as his shooting but he got lit up by Crawford the other night.

He was putrid again tonight, going 1-6 in 20mins, allowing Rondo to get anywhere he wanted on the floor. And let's not forget his bad entry pass last night that resulted in a turnover that nearly cost us the game. Injury or no, Hinrich has been an utter disaster up to this point with no relief in sight.

I swear when Kirk hit his first shot after going 0-15 in the previous 2 games, you could hear Neil Funk having an orgasm. It went something like this:

Kirk from the corner....yeeEEEEESSS!!! Oh...oh my..oh my...I need a cigarette.

It just really hurts to watch since BG according to our genius owner wouldn't have played over Kirk who looks like he belongs in the nbdl. At least if Kirk was good it would be stomachable. Seriously, I can't believe we chose this scrub over our best player. Way to go JR.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

Kirk Hinrich CAN shoot well...he's just not. Which of course makes everyone slam him out of 1) anger that he's playing like shit, which is logical 2) anger that he got paid more than you wanted him too, but you forget that at the time the contract was deserved and management could not have predicted his current suckitude or Derrick Rose getting drafted 3) people here like BG more than Hinrich, don't you dare say otherwise because as a whole, this is true, and BG was treated like crap while Hinrich got a contract that was better than the one offered to Ben, thus Kirk Hinrich gets the hate, rather than management since it's THEIR fault BG wasn't signed.

Okay, let the Hinrich smashing continue, sorry for the interruption.

 

[Diddy1122]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

Kendall just stated in the post-game, the biggest difference in the matchup between the Bulls & the C's this year as opposed to last, is the loss of Gordon. He went on to further add that having a consistent perimeter threat like BG helps space the floor our slashers & keep Boston's defense honest.

 

[houheffna]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

Bulls still would get their asses kicked...the Celtics are far more talented...

 

[TheStig]

Re:KC: Bulls May Have Pulled Offer From BG B4 Dead

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Kirk Hinrich CAN shoot well...he's just not. Which of course makes everyone slam him out of 1) anger that he's playing like shit, which is logical 2) anger that he got paid more than you wanted him too, but you forget that at the time the contract was deserved and management could not have predicted his current suckitude or Derrick Rose getting drafted 3) people here like BG more than Hinrich, don't you dare say otherwise because as a whole, this is true, and BG was treated like crap while Hinrich got a contract that was better than the one offered to Ben, thus Kirk Hinrich gets the hate, rather than management since it's THEIR fault BG wasn't signed.

Okay, let the Hinrich smashing continue, sorry for the interruption.

I agree with the other two but I definitely think that Kirk had a fair deal. It was fair when it was signed. But he was inappropriately used as a hedge in case BG left. Which he clearly can't fill the role he has now. Kirk would be a ok starting PG on another team but we already have a starter and kirk making as much money as our starting backcourt is really bad for a team scared of the LT. Kirk just doesn't have a role on this team to justify his salary. Add in his absolute suckitude this year and you get the Kirk Hinrich bashing. Which, he is sucking much more than usual doesn't help.