Keith Law Rates Cubs #1

brett05

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Cubs have best hitting prospects Keith has ever seen. Believes Cubs would like better pitching and may trade some hitters for the needed pitching

Because of age and readiness thinks the year of control to hold Bryant down for a few weeks is a complete waste

Feels even with poor performance in Winter League Cubs have not lost any additional confidence in Baez

From the scouts to his own opinion gives Kyle zero chance of being a catcher in the bigs but does believe he'll be an impact bat in the majors
 

SilenceS

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Cubs have best hitting prospects Keith has ever seen. Believes Cubs would like better pitching and may trade some hitters for the needed pitching

Because of age and readiness thinks the year of control to hold Bryant down for a few weeks is a complete waste

Feels even with poor performance in Winter League Cubs have not lost any additional confidence in Baez

From the scouts to his own opinion gives Kyle zero chance of being a catcher in the bigs but does believe he'll be an impact bat in the majors

I think it was strong setiments when Maddon called him a big part of the future. This is my logic on Baez. He could completely bust, but the potential is so high and the Cubs have so many bats in the minors and money. Why not gamble on it instead of playing it safe and trading him for something more safe. To me I would rather gamble on Baez everyday then trade him off and see him rip 40 bombs a year if it all comes together. He is 22. A young 22 at that. I think the Cubs arent letting him go anywhere. They envision him, Bryant, and Rizzo in the middle of the order for the future.
 

brett05

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I think it was strong setiments when Maddon called him a big part of the future. This is my logic on Baez. He could completely bust, but the potential is so high and the Cubs have so many bats in the minors and money. Why not gamble on it instead of playing it safe and trading him for something more safe. To me I would rather gamble on Baez everyday then trade him off and see him rip 40 bombs a year if it all comes together. He is 22. A young 22 at that. I think the Cubs arent letting him go anywhere. They envision him, Bryant, and Rizzo in the middle of the order for the future.

I agree. If a trade was to be done prior to major league success then they are selling low. Best to hold
 

Boobaby1

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I think it was strong setiments when Maddon called him a big part of the future. This is my logic on Baez. He could completely bust, but the potential is so high and the Cubs have so many bats in the minors and money. Why not gamble on it instead of playing it safe and trading him for something more safe. To me I would rather gamble on Baez everyday then trade him off and see him rip 40 bombs a year if it all comes together. He is 22. A young 22 at that. I think the Cubs arent letting him go anywhere. They envision him, Bryant, and Rizzo in the middle of the order for the future.

I don't necessarily think that he has to be in the middle of the order to be a success. What is wrong with having your #7 hitter hitting 30-35 bombs a year regardless of SO's?

I envision more of the middle of the order being Russell, Rizzo, Bryant, Schwarber, and Soler. Go through those guys and then face Baez. Talk about potentially being pistol whipped by the time a pitcher gets to Baez.

BTW, did I even mention Castro, Almora, and/or McKinney anywhere in the order? :parrot:
 

beckdawg

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I think it was strong setiments when Maddon called him a big part of the future. This is my logic on Baez. He could completely bust, but the potential is so high and the Cubs have so many bats in the minors and money. Why not gamble on it instead of playing it safe and trading him for something more safe. To me I would rather gamble on Baez everyday then trade him off and see him rip 40 bombs a year if it all comes together. He is 22. A young 22 at that. I think the Cubs arent letting him go anywhere. They envision him, Bryant, and Rizzo in the middle of the order for the future.

My opposing viewpoint would be simply that to take the "why not gamble" route the reward for the gamble has to be pretty exceptional. I've said it else where but I really think Baez will put up a stat line similar to Chris Carter once he matures. 7 years of that sort of player isn't exactly a "bust" but it's not really franchise changing either. Until Baez dramatically cuts his K rate(talking lower than even minor league levels) or significantly ups his walk rate to me he's going to be an average to good player but will never be "exceptional." Now we don't know what teams offer for him but you have to believe even given his horrible start that as a head line piece he could net you something decent. Also, I'd throw out the concept that the cubs really shouldn't need more power in say 2016-17. You're probably going to have 4-5 players at plus to plus-plus power(for their position) out of Castro, Rizzo, Bryant, Russell, Schwarber, Soler and Alcantara. It's frankly hard to imagine the cubs not being near the top of the NL in HRs given that they were 5th in all of baseball last year with a number of those names never playing an inning. So you're talking about his biggest strength being a bit redundant.

To me it comes down to what you realistically think he can get to. I would throw out this link from the past 14 seasons to suggest that Baez's absolute peak is probably 2014 Ian Desmond level of value. That's allowing for a 2% increase in walk rate and a 5% decrease in k rate from his AA/AAA numbers as well as giving him the benefit of the doubt defensively that he will be very good at 2B. I honestly can't fathom an argument being made more optimistic than that without being blatantly homer biased. More realistically, you're probably talking about something in the 2.5-3.5 WAR range or a poor mans Ian Desmond if you dislike the usage of WAR as a best case scenario. That's not to say Baez is the same type of player just that his value would be similar. And while Baez does have the team control, you're also factoring in the huge risk he never makes it.

Ultimately, I think people have a disproportionate view of what his potential is. If he hits .227/.308/.491 with 37 HRs like Chris Carter did last season at a 9.8%/31.8% bb/k rate clip you're not talking about a all-star and given what we've seen thus far out of Baez that seems like a pretty generous assumption that he gets there. Baez's is almost assuredly not going to walk more than Carter. He might play better defense than him but keep in mind we're talking about someone who had 10 errors in 52 games last season as well as 40 two seasons ago in A+/AA. Maybe Baez K's slightly less in time but given his 28.8% k rate in AA and his 30% k rate in AAA there's no reason to believe it will be a dramatic improvement. My belief is the unknown has more upside than anything in his minor league numbers suggest and I'd rather someone else took that gamble than the cubs because prospects will break your heart.... especially those who K at a 30%+ clip(hello Brett Jackson :-/).
 

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My opposing viewpoint would be simply that to take the "why not gamble" route the reward for the gamble has to be pretty exceptional. I've said it else where but I really think Baez will put up a stat line similar to Chris Carter once he matures. 7 years of that sort of player isn't exactly a "bust" but it's not really franchise changing either. Until Baez dramatically cuts his K rate(talking lower than even minor league levels) or significantly ups his walk rate to me he's going to be an average to good player but will never be "exceptional." Now we don't know what teams offer for him but you have to believe even given his horrible start that as a head line piece he could net you something decent. Also, I'd throw out the concept that the cubs really shouldn't need more power in say 2016-17. You're probably going to have 4-5 players at plus to plus-plus power(for their position) out of Castro, Rizzo, Bryant, Russell, Schwarber, Soler and Alcantara. It's frankly hard to imagine the cubs not being near the top of the NL in HRs given that they were 5th in all of baseball last year with a number of those names never playing an inning. So you're talking about his biggest strength being a bit redundant.

To me it comes down to what you realistically think he can get to. I would throw out this link from the past 14 seasons to suggest that Baez's absolute peak is probably 2014 Ian Desmond level of value. That's allowing for a 2% increase in walk rate and a 5% decrease in k rate from his AA/AAA numbers as well as giving him the benefit of the doubt defensively that he will be very good at 2B. I honestly can't fathom an argument being made more optimistic than that without being blatantly homer biased. More realistically, you're probably talking about something in the 2.5-3.5 WAR range or a poor mans Ian Desmond if you dislike the usage of WAR as a best case scenario. That's not to say Baez is the same type of player just that his value would be similar. And while Baez does have the team control, you're also factoring in the huge risk he never makes it.

Ultimately, I think people have a disproportionate view of what his potential is. If he hits .227/.308/.491 with 37 HRs like Chris Carter did last season at a 9.8%/31.8% bb/k rate clip you're not talking about a all-star and given what we've seen thus far out of Baez that seems like a pretty generous assumption that he gets there. Baez's is almost assuredly not going to walk more than Carter. He might play better defense than him but keep in mind we're talking about someone who had 10 errors in 52 games last season as well as 40 two seasons ago in A+/AA. Maybe Baez K's slightly less in time but given his 28.8% k rate in AA and his 30% k rate in AAA there's no reason to believe it will be a dramatic improvement. My belief is the unknown has more upside than anything in his minor league numbers suggest and I'd rather someone else took that gamble than the cubs because prospects will break your heart.... especially those who K at a 30%+ clip(hello Brett Jackson :-/).

Its funny
 

CSF77

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I don't necessarily think that he has to be in the middle of the order to be a success. What is wrong with having your #7 hitter hitting 30-35 bombs a year regardless of SO's?

I envision more of the middle of the order being Russell, Rizzo, Bryant, Schwarber, and Soler. Go through those guys and then face Baez. Talk about potentially being pistol whipped by the time a pitcher gets to Baez.

BTW, did I even mention Castro, Almora, and/or McKinney anywhere in the order? :parrot:

There is some thought out there that Soler may excell as a #2 hitter with his advanced approach at the plate. Makes the line up scary when the #2-5 could blast one out on any swing.
 

TC in Mississippi

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My opposing viewpoint would be simply that to take the "why not gamble" route the reward for the gamble has to be pretty exceptional. I've said it else where but I really think Baez will put up a stat line similar to Chris Carter once he matures. 7 years of that sort of player isn't exactly a "bust" but it's not really franchise changing either. Until Baez dramatically cuts his K rate(talking lower than even minor league levels) or significantly ups his walk rate to me he's going to be an average to good player but will never be "exceptional." Now we don't know what teams offer for him but you have to believe even given his horrible start that as a head line piece he could net you something decent. Also, I'd throw out the concept that the cubs really shouldn't need more power in say 2016-17. You're probably going to have 4-5 players at plus to plus-plus power(for their position) out of Castro, Rizzo, Bryant, Russell, Schwarber, Soler and Alcantara. It's frankly hard to imagine the cubs not being near the top of the NL in HRs given that they were 5th in all of baseball last year with a number of those names never playing an inning. So you're talking about his biggest strength being a bit redundant.

To me it comes down to what you realistically think he can get to. I would throw out this link from the past 14 seasons to suggest that Baez's absolute peak is probably 2014 Ian Desmond level of value. That's allowing for a 2% increase in walk rate and a 5% decrease in k rate from his AA/AAA numbers as well as giving him the benefit of the doubt defensively that he will be very good at 2B. I honestly can't fathom an argument being made more optimistic than that without being blatantly homer biased. More realistically, you're probably talking about something in the 2.5-3.5 WAR range or a poor mans Ian Desmond if you dislike the usage of WAR as a best case scenario. That's not to say Baez is the same type of player just that his value would be similar. And while Baez does have the team control, you're also factoring in the huge risk he never makes it.

Ultimately, I think people have a disproportionate view of what his potential is. If he hits .227/.308/.491 with 37 HRs like Chris Carter did last season at a 9.8%/31.8% bb/k rate clip you're not talking about a all-star and given what we've seen thus far out of Baez that seems like a pretty generous assumption that he gets there. Baez's is almost assuredly not going to walk more than Carter. He might play better defense than him but keep in mind we're talking about someone who had 10 errors in 52 games last season as well as 40 two seasons ago in A+/AA. Maybe Baez K's slightly less in time but given his 28.8% k rate in AA and his 30% k rate in AAA there's no reason to believe it will be a dramatic improvement. My belief is the unknown has more upside than anything in his minor league numbers suggest and I'd rather someone else took that gamble than the cubs because prospects will break your heart.... especially those who K at a 30%+ clip(hello Brett Jackson :-/).

I think that's overly pessimistic but it's also clear that you don't like the kind of player that his upside is. I also want to add that I think that's ok, I don't love the three outcome types much either but a lot of people sense something more in this kid and I'm inclined to believe them. I think in a perfect world his average season is .240/.315/.540 with 40 HR. I think the Cubs feel he could have a K rate of 28% with adjustments and a close to 10% walk rate is not impossible. That's an All Star talent and if he is above defensively you're probably talking about a 3.5 to 4.5 WAR player. That's also an average season, if those are the averages their could be an MVP type season in there. Even if he's in between what you think and what I think he's a solid MLB player. Of course that also means that he would be in demand in a trade. I frankly have no dog in the fight. The only prospect I legitimately want starting for the Cubs is Kris Bryant who I think will ultimately break our hearts and leave as 30 year old, but so be it. I think that kid's special and along with Rizzo and Soler I'm good. If the other guys bring us back major league talent so be it.
 

Zvbxrpl

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Dont mean shit to me but a popularity contest won......

By Keith Law, of all people. Someone I find to be a big idiot who succumbs to constant favoritism when talking about players.

It means nothing when they're sitting at home in October.

Get over it, kiddies. Some of these highly rated prospects wont pan out. The trick is picking the good ones and prison fucking other teams in trades based on the hypes of the bad ones.
 

Boobaby1

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Dont mean shit to me but a popularity contest won......

By Keith Law, of all people. Someone I find to be a big idiot who succumbs to constant favoritism when talking about players.

It means nothing when they're sitting at home in October.

Get over it, kiddies. Some of these highly rated prospects wont pan out. The trick is picking the good ones and prison fucking other teams in trades based on the hypes of the bad ones.

Nothing wrong with that. In prospects, you will also seemed to get screwed yourself when they are traded. Very few times does it work evenly for both teams.

I have stated that Baez would fetch a better ROI if traded, but right now, his hype is not where it needs to be.

I want his numbers to increase greatly, and then pull off a deal for some studly young pitching perhaps.

The beauty of all of this is that the Cubs have a bounty of young kids, and some pretty good ones at that which increases the chances that even if some bust, some will prosper greatly.
 

beckdawg

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I think that's overly pessimistic but it's also clear that you don't like the kind of player that his upside is.

I'd ask what your basis for suggesting that is pessimistic? Keep in mind the guy I associated him with was Carter who posted a .227/.308/.491 with 37 HRs at 9.8%/31.8%. That's basically where you're putting him in terms of walk rate and about +4% k rate. Over a full season every percentage point in k rate is worth about 3 points in average. That would make him roughly a .240/.320 hitter. Last season Carter was worth 1.7 fWAR. I would also point out these numbers. That is a list of players with .320 or lower OBP last season. There were 12 players above 2.3 fWAR all of whom were plus defenders. So, if you're telling me you think his potential is better than a 3 WAR player you're also telling me he's going to be a plus defender.

This is what i mean about people having a disproportionate view of what his potential is. Now, I'm not saying it's impossible that Baez improves beyond those sort of limitations. What I'm saying is expecting something to occur that hasn't ever shown up previously isn't logical it's pure and simple hope. People essentially want him to be Giancarlo Stanton or a lessor version of that. Problem here is that Stanton has a +4% career walk rate over Baez highest walk rate at any level. Additionally the two seasons where Stanton was a super star level player(2012/14) he had a .344 and .353 BABIP respectively which is pretty high. His next best season was 2011 with 3.2 fWAR which coincidentally was in the 2.5-3.5 range that i pointed to as being Baez potential. It really comes down to this, unless Baez ups his walk rate to the 12%+ range(eg becomes Adam Dunn) or cuts his k rate below 25% or BABIP's extremely higher than most players or starts playing gold glove caliber defense or some combo of the above his ceiling is limited.
 

TC in Mississippi

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I'd ask what your basis for suggesting that is pessimistic? Keep in mind the guy I associated him with was Carter who posted a .227/.308/.491 with 37 HRs at 9.8%/31.8%. That's basically where you're putting him in terms of walk rate and about +4% k rate. Over a full season every percentage point in k rate is worth about 3 points in average. That would make him roughly a .240/.320 hitter. Last season Carter was worth 1.7 fWAR. I would also point out these numbers. That is a list of players with .320 or lower OBP last season. There were 12 players above 2.3 fWAR all of whom were plus defenders. So, if you're telling me you think his potential is better than a 3 WAR player you're also telling me he's going to be a plus defender.

This is what i mean about people having a disproportionate view of what his potential is. Now, I'm not saying it's impossible that Baez improves beyond those sort of limitations. What I'm saying is expecting something to occur that hasn't ever shown up previously isn't logical it's pure and simple hope. People essentially want him to be Giancarlo Stanton or a lessor version of that. Problem here is that Stanton has a +4% career walk rate over Baez highest walk rate at any level. Additionally the two seasons where Stanton was a super star level player(2012/14) he had a .344 and .353 BABIP respectively which is pretty high. His next best season was 2011 with 3.2 fWAR which coincidentally was in the 2.5-3.5 range that i pointed to as being Baez potential. It really comes down to this, unless Baez ups his walk rate to the 12%+ range(eg becomes Adam Dunn) or cuts his k rate below 25% or BABIP's extremely higher than most players or starts playing gold glove caliber defense or some combo of the above his ceiling is limited.

Where you're right for sure is that people that believe in him expect his walk rate to increase dramatically over the next couple of years. In fact I heard the exact words "increase dramatically" from one of the baseball pundits recently supposedly based on what a scout was telling him. If it does then yes people are expecting him to be Giancarlo Stanton light playing a slightly more valuable position. These are people who do not believe your assertion that his ceiling is limited. The hope for Baez is that is ceiling is very high. The fact that he can play SS could make him even more valuable to a team that wants to play him there. What I was saying is that you have done some really detailed analysis, stayed very close to reality and have one of the lowest opinions of this kid of anyone I've heard. I think, with him being 22 years old, that he can improve more that you think he can and there are others who still project him as a superstar. He needs to learn to control the strike zone bottom line. I'm waiting for the trade partner that really believes he can. It would hurt to watch him hit 40 HR a year for someone else but with all the rest of these kids coming I think I'd take that chance.
 

CSF77

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Where you're right for sure is that people that believe in him expect his walk rate to increase dramatically over the next couple of years. In fact I heard the exact words "increase dramatically" from one of the baseball pundits recently supposedly based on what a scout was telling him. If it does then yes people are expecting him to be Giancarlo Stanton light playing a slightly more valuable position. These are people who do not believe your assertion that his ceiling is limited. The hope for Baez is that is ceiling is very high. The fact that he can play SS could make him even more valuable to a team that wants to play him there. What I was saying is that you have done some really detailed analysis, stayed very close to reality and have one of the lowest opinions of this kid of anyone I've heard. I think, with him being 22 years old, that he can improve more that you think he can and there are others who still project him as a superstar. He needs to learn to control the strike zone bottom line. I'm waiting for the trade partner that really believes he can. It would hurt to watch him hit 40 HR a year for someone else but with all the rest of these kids coming I think I'd take that chance.

It depends on what he brings back in a trade. I believe that they should wait until the trade deadline to see what they end up doing.

Baez may end up in AAA in Apr. Olt at 3B and LaSortta at 2B. This IMO is a very likely scenerio.

CF Fowler (SH)
SS Castro (RH)
1B Rizzo (LH)
RF Soler (RH)
C Montenero (LH)
3B Olt (RH)
LF Coghlan (LH)
2B LaSortta (LH)

So say Olt starts off hot at 3B and they want to promote Bryant week 3. LF becomes the natural spot. Baez IMO is going to need more time to adjust.

So:
CF Fowler
RF Soler
1B Rizzo
LF Bryant
3B Olt
C Montenero
SS Castro
2B LaSortta

IMO Soler should carry a OBA close to .400 which will dictate him ahead of the power hitters. Castro will be lucky to be above .330. Hitting lower would add RBI's lower in the order.

So by the trade deadline they would have Olt and Castro as trade bait with Baez and Russell ready for action. That opens up a top of the rotation trade if they are in it.

That is just one scenario. They have depth and cash resource.
 

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Castro isn't going anywhere and he would also bat above Olt in the lineup.
 

beckdawg

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Where you're right for sure is that people that believe in him expect his walk rate to increase dramatically over the next couple of years. In fact I heard the exact words "increase dramatically" from one of the baseball pundits recently supposedly based on what a scout was telling him. If it does then yes people are expecting him to be Giancarlo Stanton light playing a slightly more valuable position. These are people who do not believe your assertion that his ceiling is limited. The hope for Baez is that is ceiling is very high. The fact that he can play SS could make him even more valuable to a team that wants to play him there. What I was saying is that you have done some really detailed analysis, stayed very close to reality and have one of the lowest opinions of this kid of anyone I've heard. I think, with him being 22 years old, that he can improve more that you think he can and there are others who still project him as a superstar. He needs to learn to control the strike zone bottom line. I'm waiting for the trade partner that really believes he can. It would hurt to watch him hit 40 HR a year for someone else but with all the rest of these kids coming I think I'd take that chance.

With regard to the walk rate, that's would be rather atypical. Typically, players who walk a lot walked a lot in the minors. For example, using Stanton again he walked at 18.3% in AA stint 2, 9.1% in stint 1(at 19), 13.3% in A+, and 10.7% in A. I get the logic behind people's thought. Baez was one of the most pitched around players last season. The thought being if he stops getting himself out he'll walk more essentially. My issue with that is I'm not really sure that's the case. Pitcher are pitching around him because it's easy and he gets himself out. If he stops doing that, you're still talking about him having to adjust to pitcher pitching him like they would any normal power hitter. And from what i've read, his stance which he uses to generate such bat speed opens up a lot of problem areas for him. I'm not going to pretend like I know all about that. Just saying what I've read. So, I'm not going to flat out say it's impossible for him to improve his walk rate but I will say he would be the exception to most 10%+ walk rate players.

I'd also just like to mention the fact that while he's 22 one thing to consider is just how long it can take to get accustomed to a new stance/swing. They messed around with Castro and they lost a year to it. So, realistically speaking people shouldn't expect anything out of this year especially after the slow start he's had in the DWL. With him basically being on that fringe of good enough to beat AAA but not good enough to beat MLB you start to run into a problem with regard to options years of which you get 3. Any set backs in terms of injury or just adjustment period and he's suddenly not a young guy anymore. You start talking about a 24/25 year old who's not a known quantity and is low on option years and his situation becomes difficult to manage because if he's still hitting in the .200-.230 range it's tough to throw that out there daily if you're hoping to be a competitive team.

As for him hitting 40 HRs for another team, honestly it wouldn't bother me. Does it bother Sox/A's fans that Chris Carter hit 37 for the Astros last season? Regret only creeps in if he becomes a super star and only if the player you get wasn't equally as good. This is the key point when you talk about something like the Lou Brock trade. If Broglio pitched 5-7 more seasons at the level he had prior to the trade(talking Jordan Zimmermann level as a today comp.) then people would have an entirely different view of that trade. Does anyone regret trading away Hee Seop Choi for Derrek Lee? Granted Choi was never a top 10 prospect but he did reach 22 in BA's 2003 top 100. Does anyone regret trading Bobby Hill(#48 in 2002) for Ramirez? Do the Royals regret trading Wil Myers(Shields trade), the Tigers trading Camreon Maybin(Miggy/Willis trade), or the Rays Trading Delmon Young(Garza/Bartlett trade)? All of those were top 10 prospects at some point. Obviously you can see where I'm going with this.

It often feels like fans and cubs fans in general have this natural aversion to someone else getting the better of them with their home grown players. I could literally cite dozens of championship caliber teams from the 90's/2000's that were built on the back of trading the next hot prospect. The Cardinals didn't develop McGwire, Rolen, Edmonds, and Holliday. The Yankees didn't develop Knoblauch, Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill, David Cone, Clemens, and Mussina. Presumably Baez is the type of piece that would headline any one of those trades. My point is simple. Maybe my expectations on Baez are low and maybe not. But why take the risk if you can get a piece such as one of these players? 75% of top 100 prospects end up being below average or worse major league players. I think it's something like 40% of top 10 hitters end up being below average or worse players. You're essentially talking a coin flip and that's ignoring what we've already seen. And cubs fans have seen the gambling path with promising players like Pie, Patterson, Vitters, Jackson...etc. There's just far too many questions for me to feel comfortable.
 

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With regard to the walk rate, that's would be rather atypical. Typically, players who walk a lot walked a lot in the minors. For example, using Stanton again he walked at 18.3% in AA stint 2, 9.1% in stint 1(at 19), 13.3% in A+, and 10.7% in A. I get the logic behind people's thought. Baez was one of the most pitched around players last season. The thought being if he stops getting himself out he'll walk more essentially. My issue with that is I'm not really sure that's the case. Pitcher are pitching around him because it's easy and he gets himself out. If he stops doing that, you're still talking about him having to adjust to pitcher pitching him like they would any normal power hitter. And from what i've read, his stance which he uses to generate such bat speed opens up a lot of problem areas for him. I'm not going to pretend like I know all about that. Just saying what I've read. So, I'm not going to flat out say it's impossible for him to improve his walk rate but I will say he would be the exception to most 10%+ walk rate players.

I'd also just like to mention the fact that while he's 22 one thing to consider is just how long it can take to get accustomed to a new stance/swing. They messed around with Castro and they lost a year to it. So, realistically speaking people shouldn't expect anything out of this year especially after the slow start he's had in the DWL. With him basically being on that fringe of good enough to beat AAA but not good enough to beat MLB you start to run into a problem with regard to options years of which you get 3. Any set backs in terms of injury or just adjustment period and he's suddenly not a young guy anymore. You start talking about a 24/25 year old who's not a known quantity and is low on option years and his situation becomes difficult to manage because if he's still hitting in the .200-.230 range it's tough to throw that out there daily if you're hoping to be a competitive team.

As for him hitting 40 HRs for another team, honestly it wouldn't bother me. Does it bother Sox/A's fans that Chris Carter hit 37 for the Astros last season? Regret only creeps in if he becomes a super star and only if the player you get wasn't equally as good. This is the key point when you talk about something like the Lou Brock trade. If Broglio pitched 5-7 more seasons at the level he had prior to the trade(talking Jordan Zimmermann level as a today comp.) then people would have an entirely different view of that trade. Does anyone regret trading away Hee Seop Choi for Derrek Lee? Granted Choi was never a top 10 prospect but he did reach 22 in BA's 2003 top 100. Does anyone regret trading Bobby Hill(#48 in 2002) for Ramirez? Do the Royals regret trading Wil Myers(Shields trade), the Tigers trading Camreon Maybin(Miggy/Willis trade), or the Rays Trading Delmon Young(Garza/Bartlett trade)? All of those were top 10 prospects at some point. Obviously you can see where I'm going with this.

It often feels like fans and cubs fans in general have this natural aversion to someone else getting the better of them with their home grown players. I could literally cite dozens of championship caliber teams from the 90's/2000's that were built on the back of trading the next hot prospect. The Cardinals didn't develop McGwire, Rolen, Edmonds, and Holliday. The Yankees didn't develop Knoblauch, Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill, David Cone, Clemens, and Mussina. Presumably Baez is the type of piece that would headline any one of those trades. My point is simple. Maybe my expectations on Baez are low and maybe not. But why take the risk if you can get a piece such as one of these players? 75% of top 100 prospects end up being below average or worse major league players. I think it's something like 40% of top 10 hitters end up being below average or worse players. You're essentially talking a coin flip and that's ignoring what we've already seen. And cubs fans have seen the gambling path with promising players like Pie, Patterson, Vitters, Jackson...etc. There's just far too many questions for me to feel comfortable.

well said. i prefer myself to move prospects. gordon beckham was untouchable and we wouldnt move him in an adrian gonzo trade. it always seems like the guys who are the studs are nobodys when drafted kinda like buehrle. its such a crap shoot. having the number 1-10 farm helps because those pieces that are hit or misses can be used to get guys like a cole hamels etc.

kris bryant is the top spec in baseball. I want to see his transition because a lot of fans have him already hof bound....what if he does fail? his value is so high right now he could turn that value into a bag of balls or hit 40 dingers....we just dont know. i guess its why the games are played.


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SilenceS

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Dont mean shit to me but a popularity contest won......

By Keith Law, of all people. Someone I find to be a big idiot who succumbs to constant favoritism when talking about players.

It means nothing when they're sitting at home in October.

Get over it, kiddies. Some of these highly rated prospects wont pan out. The trick is picking the good ones and prison fucking other teams in trades based on the hypes of the bad ones.

Keith law has no favoritism towards the Cubs.


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SilenceS

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well said. i prefer myself to move prospects. gordon beckham was untouchable and we wouldnt move him in an adrian gonzo trade. it always seems like the guys who are the studs are nobodys when drafted kinda like buehrle. its such a crap shoot. having the number 1-10 farm helps because those pieces that are hit or misses can be used to get guys like a cole hamels etc.

kris bryant is the top spec in baseball. I want to see his transition because a lot of fans have him already hof bound....what if he does fail? his value is so high right now he could turn that value into a bag of balls or hit 40 dingers....we just dont know. i guess its why the games are played.


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It's stacking the odds in your favor. Like blackjack and when you are trying to gain the odds in your favor over the house


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TC in Mississippi

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With regard to the walk rate, that's would be rather atypical. Typically, players who walk a lot walked a lot in the minors. For example, using Stanton again he walked at 18.3% in AA stint 2, 9.1% in stint 1(at 19), 13.3% in A+, and 10.7% in A. I get the logic behind people's thought. Baez was one of the most pitched around players last season. The thought being if he stops getting himself out he'll walk more essentially. My issue with that is I'm not really sure that's the case. Pitcher are pitching around him because it's easy and he gets himself out. If he stops doing that, you're still talking about him having to adjust to pitcher pitching him like they would any normal power hitter. And from what i've read, his stance which he uses to generate such bat speed opens up a lot of problem areas for him. I'm not going to pretend like I know all about that. Just saying what I've read. So, I'm not going to flat out say it's impossible for him to improve his walk rate but I will say he would be the exception to most 10%+ walk rate players.

I'd also just like to mention the fact that while he's 22 one thing to consider is just how long it can take to get accustomed to a new stance/swing. They messed around with Castro and they lost a year to it. So, realistically speaking people shouldn't expect anything out of this year especially after the slow start he's had in the DWL. With him basically being on that fringe of good enough to beat AAA but not good enough to beat MLB you start to run into a problem with regard to options years of which you get 3. Any set backs in terms of injury or just adjustment period and he's suddenly not a young guy anymore. You start talking about a 24/25 year old who's not a known quantity and is low on option years and his situation becomes difficult to manage because if he's still hitting in the .200-.230 range it's tough to throw that out there daily if you're hoping to be a competitive team.

As for him hitting 40 HRs for another team, honestly it wouldn't bother me. Does it bother Sox/A's fans that Chris Carter hit 37 for the Astros last season? Regret only creeps in if he becomes a super star and only if the player you get wasn't equally as good. This is the key point when you talk about something like the Lou Brock trade. If Broglio pitched 5-7 more seasons at the level he had prior to the trade(talking Jordan Zimmermann level as a today comp.) then people would have an entirely different view of that trade. Does anyone regret trading away Hee Seop Choi for Derrek Lee? Granted Choi was never a top 10 prospect but he did reach 22 in BA's 2003 top 100. Does anyone regret trading Bobby Hill(#48 in 2002) for Ramirez? Do the Royals regret trading Wil Myers(Shields trade), the Tigers trading Camreon Maybin(Miggy/Willis trade), or the Rays Trading Delmon Young(Garza/Bartlett trade)? All of those were top 10 prospects at some point. Obviously you can see where I'm going with this.

It often feels like fans and cubs fans in general have this natural aversion to someone else getting the better of them with their home grown players. I could literally cite dozens of championship caliber teams from the 90's/2000's that were built on the back of trading the next hot prospect. The Cardinals didn't develop McGwire, Rolen, Edmonds, and Holliday. The Yankees didn't develop Knoblauch, Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill, David Cone, Clemens, and Mussina. Presumably Baez is the type of piece that would headline any one of those trades. My point is simple. Maybe my expectations on Baez are low and maybe not. But why take the risk if you can get a piece such as one of these players? 75% of top 100 prospects end up being below average or worse major league players. I think it's something like 40% of top 10 hitters end up being below average or worse players. You're essentially talking a coin flip and that's ignoring what we've already seen. And cubs fans have seen the gambling path with promising players like Pie, Patterson, Vitters, Jackson...etc. There's just far too many questions for me to feel comfortable.

I have no real issue with trading guys at all. In fact I've always thought Baez would end up being the odd man out since he doesn't quite fit the the Theo/Jed mold. That being said I also think that the fact that so many in baseball think his ceiling is generational talent counts for something. I hope he's part of a deal that nets us a pitcher so we can stop talking about signing more 30 plus year olds for $30 million plus a year. You mention trades where trading prospects worked out but sometimes it doesn't. The Dodgers traded Pedro Martinez for Delino DeShields, Ryne Sandberg was traded for Ivan DeJesus and John Smoltz was traded for Doyle Alexander. Also your what if scenario for Brock for Broglio is kind of silly since that was a historically bad trade and the scout that had identified Brock quit the same day. The trick is knowing the guys to trade. I don't think the the Cubs know enough about any of their guys right this minute to make those decisions. Hopefully they'll figure a ton out this year and we won't even have to talk about this any more.
 

Bear Pride

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Nothing wrong with that. In prospects, you will also seemed to get screwed yourself when they are traded. Very few times does it work evenly for both teams.

I have stated that Baez would fetch a better ROI if traded, but right now, his hype is not where it needs to be.

I want his numbers to increase greatly, and then pull off a deal for some studly young pitching perhaps.

The beauty of all of this is that the Cubs have a bounty of young kids, and some pretty good ones at that which increases the chances that even if some bust, some will prosper greatly.

This is it for me. I get the argument that the young kids are unproven, I do. I also expect that not all of them will become HOF'ers. We're seeing some struggles with Baez now. The thing is, the Cubs are not basing a lot on 2 or 3 young players, they have a lot of young players. Maybe some that people are not counting on.

Last time I checked, the larger the sample size, the greater the chance for success. Even if the prospects pan out at a 50% rate, they still could likely have enough to win. The interesting thing for me will be seeing how good the 2nd tier of prospects are for the Cubs.

Who knows how some of these guy's develop. I do know the Cubs have a lot of them, hence being rated #1 farm system. You've got to like the chances of some of these guys coming up yet, and that w/o the core prospects, who still could be great.
 

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