Michael Jordan is out legacy protecting again

[houheffna]

The Jordan rules - Google Books

About 4 paragraphs down, you'll read an excerpt from the Jordan rules about all the kids w/ terminal ailments that Jordan met from "Make a Wish Foundation". One of my good friends caddied for him around this time, and he said he was a fantastic guy. Does he sit around campfires with fans singing kumbaya every weekend? No. Is he as good a guy as David Robinson or Drew Breese? No, and few are. He's a complex individual, and like many of us, good and times and bad at times. But to portray him as some sort of rampaging prick is wrong. And considering all that he's done for the city, efforts to portray him as such are quite pathetic.

I specifically asked Bill Wennington if he liked playing with him, and he said he never had a problem with Michael, and that Michael was a good teammate. He demanded effort from his teammates and excellence. Has this society evolved into such a pile of wuss that these are now the qualities of a raging asshole?

The guy brought nothing but joy to my life. Why tear him down for speaking his mind? He should speak his mind. He's the best that ever was. Kobe's not even close, and I can understand why he should feel insulted by the media's effort to make this a conversation topic. He helped remake the image of this city, once often associated with losers and Al Capone. Now, you mention Chicago, and it's Michael, Orprah or Barack.

Kobe is a top 10 player in NBA history...top 10 amongst guards? That is unfairly boxing in a great player to a specific category. Kobe is bigger than that. Do I think Jordan's bothered by comparisons to Kobe? Maybe so...that's his problem. The comparisons will be there...

I doubt that Jordan would have done similar to Magic, or Bird or any of the greats that came before him or played during his time..."Magic Johnson would definitely be on the list of greatest point guards..." Gee, you think? Kobe, I believe is the second greatest shooting guard ever...and Jordan knows it. Jordan also knows that presently Lebron is a better player than Kobe, but he won't admit it.

I knock his hall of fame speech...I knock him for some of his statements towards today's stars like Lebron and Kobe...that is not defaming his legacy, that is telling the truth.

I am 35 years old! I don't feel like celebrating someone as a great human being because they can jump high or run fast...I acknowledge his athleticism and his achievements...he was a great player, the greatest player. My problem is with the image portrayed for years comparable to reality.

He brought joy on the basketball court to me also. But as a person victimized by bullying...reading Jordan Rules really opened my eyes to him. Most likely he and I would not have gotten along, because I hate bullying...period. I know what it does to people, children and adults and I don't like it.

Fred, you bring up his father being murdered and his best friend's murder as excuses...you are seriously reaching. I was a victim of abuse...If I am an asshole because of it, maybe I should seek help. In the meantime, those victimized by the behavior I exhibit in a negative way should be allowed to feel that I am an asshole, and not necessarily need a psychological paradigm at their disposal to excuse it. Do you know how much I hear that b.s.? "He killed his whole family because he grew up poor and can't find a job...." give me a damn break.

What athletes don't visit sick kids....who says "f--- them cancerous bastards!" Of course he visits kids. Doesn't mean he wasn't a bad guy towards teammates and even Bulls execs. I have heard good and bad things about him from people who know him, which makes him human.

I wish he could have worked as hard at being a great human being as he did a great player...then maybe he could be compared to David Robinson, Olajuwon...people like that. Mickey Mantle, sick and near death spoke of how he was NOT a role model...his drinking and partying ways had caught up to him and was cutting his life short. He, when healthy, may have been the greatest baseball player ever, an international superstar, looking back on his life, said he wasn't a great role model...yet his teammates loved him. Many of Jordan's teammates respected him, but despised him. As he ages, I believe one of his regrets will be the unnecessarily bad treatment he gave to those who were close to him when the lights and the cameras were not on. Maybe he won't, but I know how I feel in reaction to knowledge of it. His HOF speech was really the first time Jordan Rules was in action. The first time I saw him when he was at his lowest. It makes a big difference in reading about it and seeing it first hand...

rather than excusing him for his actions or saying goof ball b.s. like "he deserves to say what he wants because he's the greatest...", I say that his position in the sport warrants better behavior. I shouldn't adjust my moral beliefs to suit Jordan's fame and fortune. I hold him to the same standards I hold any other....ANY other athlete to. I have NOT heard the bad things about Lebron or Wade for example that I have heard about Jordan....but, people have no problem cutting them down because "those bastards cost us a dynasty", and don't believe for a second that Jordan's criticism of Lebron wasn't self serving. That group in Miami will forcibly push the Bobcats into basketball purgatory for the next decade.

I have given Jordan his props, yet I have no problem pointing out his flaws also. When I was a boy, I idolized him, now I am a man...and citing near flawless athleticism while ignoring flawed character, and using that as the measure of a man, is not worth my time. I offer no apologies for it...

 

[houheffna]

Maybe we should. Can you quit acting like this is somehow the golden age of basketball. It's not. Right now, if the game suddenly stopped being played, there are only 4 stars who have a legacy worth remembering. Shaq, well past his prime, Kobe, LeBron, and Wade. That's it.

Jordan was at this best in the late 80's, when he had nothing around him. This was an era of Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, Charles Barkley, Isiah Thomas, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, Clyde Drexler, Dominique Wilkins, Chris Mullin, Hakeem Olajuwon, John Stockton, David Robinson, and Dennis Rodman...all in their primes. What stars are in their primes today? What accomplishments should I be amazed about? Kobe going 6-24 in Game 7 to win only his 2nd finals MVP? Give me a freaking break.

Chris Mullin???

Half of the guys you named didn't even win titles, but you knock Kobe for winning his 5th and beating 3 hall of fame players while doing it...OK!

This decade has produced great players...you were too busy watching Ben Gordon to notice.

 

[houheffna]

Took the words right out of my mouth Fred. This era of basketball at times makes me want to drive to David Stern's doorstep & take a big deuce on it. It's becoming a pathetic league full of pussies & whiners. The zebras dictate the eb & flow of every game, often times ruining potential great matchups with either personal agendas or general idiocy. Stern's new rules have pissed on what made basketball such a great sport to watch & play as I was growing up. No one should ever be defending this era & the sorry bunch of 'stars' that play in it. Steve Nash won back to back MVP's. I don't think I need to say much more. Though I would add J-Kidd to Fred's list of stars worth remembering from this pitiful era.

Referees and their personal agendas? Ever heard of Hue Hollins man? Stern's new rules have barely taken effect. The season hasn't started. Other rules he set up were soon rescinded. He had a quick tech rule set up before and the refs soon phased it out. Oh, and the referees back then were sooooooo devoted to the game, when they weren't "hooking MJ up with 'bitches'"

Nash would win back to back MVPs because the press didn't want to give Kobe the one he deserved. And now Nash is not a great point guard? Is that what you are saying? Because I think you are wrong about that...very wrong. And I have a hard time believing that people will remember Mullins and Drexler but will forget Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki.

I am not ready to pull out the rocking chair and be a bitter ass old man yet, talking about the "good ol' days" and act as if present day players are so inferior to players 20 years ago. You guys want to do it...have at it. When I see Durant, I see a player the league has not seen before. When I look at the point guards in this league, there has not been this many good 1's in the league in the 25 years I have been watching basketball.

I think some of you would LOOOOOOVE the league if Lebron had joined the Bulls...

 

[houheffna]

I freakin' agree Fred. Everything you mentioned was right on the money. This isn't the golden age of basketball - the talent and legacy level hasn't been so dry since the mid 1970's (which Simmons gloriously refers to as the "Coke Era"). That's only 3 or 4 guys now.

Steve Nash wins back to back MVP's in this era but look at Stockton's stats and he had like 12 years in a row where he had BETTER stats than Nash but never got the MVP. I mean not even a SNIFF! Because that generation of the league was so loaded he wasn't even in the discussion! He may not have even been a top 12 player at that time! Now he'd be a king.

Look at all those names you listed from when Jordan was in his prime. How anyone can say Kobe is comparable to MJ after the team he led was beat by 39 points in a FINALS ELIMINATION GAME and going 6-24 and having to have his team bail him out of an atrocious game 7 is beyond me.

When did Michael Jordan EVER play like that in a Finals Game 7?

Hou, you don't know what you're talking about you need to zip it up when you're talking about MJ.

you are comparing this day and age to the mid 70's, which was a downtime because the ABA was in existence...just plain stupid...

Jordan never played in game 7 of the finals. Yet I have seen him struggle in finals games.

The last line comes off very childish man...seriously, unless you are one of Jordan's sons...grab a hold of yourself quick man, that reads like you are losing it

 

[Fred]

Ok, because I'm bored, I will take Fred's list of late-80's players and apply the "legacy worth remembering" rule, which we will define as the minimum number of seasons in the NBA as the youngest (in terms of seasons in the league) player in Fred's own "current" list (LeBron James, 7 seasons). We will assume the NBA ceased operations immediately following the 1988-89 season (as "late-80's" as you can get without borrowing from the 90's). Players that make the cut (at least 7 seasons in the NBA after the 88-89 season) will appear in bold. Four players "made the cut" in Fred's list of current players, so lets see how many would make the same cut out of his list of players from the late-80's.

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Charles Barkley
Isiah Thomas
Karl Malone
Patrick Ewing
Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkins
Chris Mullin
Hakeem Olajuwon
John Stockton
David Robinson (didn't even qualify, he wasn't in the league until 89-90)
Dennis Rodman

So yeah, exactly the same number of players would have had "a legacy worth remembering" had the NBA halted after the latest possible full season in the 80's.

This isn't meant to speak on the differences in the two respective eras (there are other things for that), but rather to show that your argument is ass-backwards and completely fucking asinine. You demonstrated nothing other than your ability to list off players that were really good and played in the latter-half of the 80's. Fantastic. That proves nothing.

Actually, that was a list of players IN THEIR PRIME at the time. Kareem Abdul Jabbar played during this time...would he qualify on your legacy list? How about Moses Malone? Dr. J? Should I keep going? As I said before, there are only 3 players in their prime with legacies worth remembering today...LeBron, Kobe, and Wade. Shaq is well past it.

 

[Fred]

BTW, Olajuwon had already brought a team to the Finals by 88-89. He was the most dominant center in a great league. I'd argue he should be on that "legacy worth remembering list". Kevin McHale? Robert Parish? Alex English?

 

[Captain Iago]

Chris Mullin???

Half of the guys you named didn't even win titles, but you knock Kobe for winning his 5th and beating 3 hall of fame players while doing it...OK!

This decade has produced great players...you were too busy watching Ben Gordon to notice.

I love me a little Chris Mullin. "If the beer is cold, we'll win the gold."

 

[Fred]

Fred, you bring up his father being murdered and his best friend's murder as excuses...you are seriously reaching. I was a victim of abuse...If I am an asshole because of it, maybe I should seek help. In the meantime, those victimized by the behavior I exhibit in a negative way should be allowed to feel that I am an asshole, and not necessarily need a psychological paradigm at their disposal to excuse it. Do you know how much I hear that b.s.? "He killed his whole family because he grew up poor and can't find a job...." give me a damn break...

Let's look at what I actually said:
"his best friend and father was murdered in cold blood. Does this give him a right to be a first class dick? No, but then again, I don't think he has been since his father's death. I do think he has the right to be a little less warm, a little less inviting, and a little more angry because of this."

Why exactly am I reaching? Isn't what I actually said pretty consistant with what you said? But to go on, how exactly has Jordan hurt you? You've heard this and that from other players and sources, read it the "Jordan Rules" as I have, etc. For me, as long as an athlete is good to kids, that's all I care about. Kids aren't prepared to deal with the realilities that sometimes adults have complex personalities. Based on what I've heard from his kids, he was good to his children, and he was good to kids. I could care less if he's a dick to some 40 year old wanting an autograph, or some rich NBA teammate who can't compete. He's a complex individual with faults like all of us, some good and some bad. Why waste time trying to bash him?

 

[Fred]

Ok, because I'm bored, I will take Fred's list of late-80's players and apply the "legacy worth remembering" rule, which we will define as the minimum number of seasons in the NBA as the youngest (in terms of seasons in the league) player in Fred's own "current" list (LeBron James, 7 seasons).

Of course, your definition isn't what I used in my determination for a "legacy worth remembering", nor should it be. If Kevin Durant threw 63 up against the Lakers in the playoffs this year, he would have a legacy worth remembering. Instead over 6 playoff games, he shot 35% from the field, 28% from 3-point range, and averaged almost 4 turnovers per game. Thus his "legacy" as of today is, absolutely fantastic in the regular season, and a pile of suck in the playoffs. In other words, no legacy at all.

If Jordan had stopped playing in 89, he clearly would have been a HOFamer. In his 5th and 6th playoff games, he threw 49 and 63 points on the 86 Boston Celtics, who some have argued is the best team of all-time. That's a legacy.

 

[Lefty]

Actually, that was a list of players IN THEIR PRIME at the time. Kareem Abdul Jabbar played during this time...would he qualify on your legacy list? How about Moses Malone? Dr. J? Should I keep going? As I said before, there are only 3 players in their prime with legacies worth remembering today...LeBron, Kobe, and Wade. Shaq is well past it.

Then why'd you even post the list? That proves even less, you fucking moron. Yeah, there were a bunch of guys in their prime......just like there are now. I'm sure someone could come up with a list of equally exceptional players from current NBA rosters. You're just fucking stupid.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Then why'd you even post the list? That proves even less, you fucking moron. Yeah, there were a bunch of guys in their prime......just like there are now. I'm sure someone could come up with a list of equally exceptional players from current NBA rosters. You're just fucking stupid.

I can't wait to see Fred's reaction to this...

 

[houheffna]

Let's look at what I actually said:
"his best friend and father was murdered in cold blood. Does this give him a right to be a first class dick? No, but then again, I don't think he has been since his father's death. I do think he has the right to be a little less warm, a little less inviting, and a little more angry because of this."

Why exactly am I reaching? Isn't what I actually said pretty consistant with what you said? But to go on, how exactly has Jordan hurt you? You've heard this and that from other players and sources, read it the "Jordan Rules" as I have, etc. For me, as long as an athlete is good to kids, that's all I care about. Kids aren't prepared to deal with the realilities that sometimes adults have complex personalities. Based on what I've heard from his kids, he was good to his children, and he was good to kids. I could care less if he's a dick to some 40 year old wanting an autograph, or some rich NBA teammate who can't compete. He's a complex individual with faults like all of us, some good and some bad. Why waste time trying to bash him?

What you did is excuse a grown man being an asshole and I called you on it. What did he do to me? What did he do FOR you?

He is an entertainer, still doesn't exonerate him from whatever the bad things are that he has done...and by the way....

Think about that question you just asked me the next time the Kobe/Jordan conversation comes up...all you do is bash that guys character...

That said, his "complex" personality is not excuse for his actions. If he is bipolar, they have medicine for that, as well as other mental illnesses. Here is my question to you...

Why is it that you can't accept that this grown man might just be an asshole? I have, and he still entertained me. But if you are asking why I was affected by his actions...I was a teenager when I read that book. I explained to you that I had been victimized and abused and bullied, many times similar to the way he treated people. So what if they are grown? Didn't a grown man kill himself because he was bullied a few weeks ago? Bullying is cowardice to me. And sorry but I don't have to admire that in anybody....ANYBODY. You can ignore that because he rubbed some kids head in a news clip. I am looking at the whole person.

 

[Lefty]

Of course, your definition isn't what I used in my determination for a "legacy worth remembering", nor should it be. If Kevin Durant threw 63 up against the Lakers in the playoffs this year, he would have a legacy worth remembering. Instead over 6 playoff games, he shot 35% from the field, 28% from 3-point range, and averaged almost 4 turnovers per game. Thus his "legacy" as of today is, absolutely fantastic in the regular season, and a pile of suck in the playoffs. In other words, no legacy at all.

If Jordan had stopped playing in 89, he clearly would have been a HOFamer. In his 5th and 6th playoff games, he threw 49 and 63 points on the 86 Boston Celtics, who some have argued is the best team of all-time. That's a legacy.

Only a complete and utter buffoon would look at an individual player's accomplishments over only a handful of games (here specifically being one or two of them) and say "that means this guy is [or is not] worth remembering". That being said I'm not surprised in the least that you are ready, willing and able to whittle down a player's career or sub-set of that career to a handful of games or even a single one. Get a fucking clue.

 

[Marty Baby]

You guys aren't nice (Hou, Lefty).

 

[Marty Baby]

Sir, have you ever considered anger management? Sensitivity training?

You've got a LOT of aggression and it isn't exactly about important things. Might I recommend getting a puppy?

Only a complete and utter buffoon would look at an individual player's accomplishments over only a handful of games (here specifically being one or two of them) and say "that means this guy is [or is not] worth remembering". That being said I'm not surprised in the least that you are ready, willing and able to whittle down a player's career or sub-set of that career to a handful of games or even a single one. Get a fucking clue.

 

[Lefty]

One of the most tired cop-outs in the history of message boarding. No matter, I'll accept that as your waiving of the white flag. Try harder next time.

 

[Marty Baby]

You verbally attacked me and your language is extremely offensive.

You owe this entire board an apology. There's no place for that, son. Your behavior is completely unacceptable and if it doesn't change I'm walkin.

One of the most tired cop-outs in the history of message boarding. No matter, I'll accept that as your waiving of the white flag. Try harder next time.

 

[Lefty]

You verbally attacked me and your language is extremely offensive.

You owe this entire board an apology. There's no place for that, son. Your behavior is completely unacceptable and if it doesn't change I'm walkin.

Door, ass, "hit you on the way out" and all that.

 

[houheffna]

You guys aren't nice (Hou, Lefty).

I'm sorry but I don't remember attacking you in any way...until I decided to retaliate against some of your attacks...telling me to "zip it" when it comes to Jordan is not exactly the most courteous salutation I have received either...and frankly, could be perceived as a threat by some. I have strong opinions and I have gone back and forth with some forum members for 18 months now on these forums.

When I tried to be civil in the spring of last year, calling Gordon's impending departure no big deal, and more or less was indifferent, people attacked me, wanting to beat me up and even stated it on the forums. Doesn't bother me, the name calling did bother me. Of the 3 who did it the most, one of them apologized...

But I went nowhere. Some even asked that I be kicked off the forum because I didn't shed tears over Gordon last summer. I'm still here. You can walk, but this forum has an ignore button. For those of us who you find disrespectful...use it.

My opinions of Jordan haven't changed, I criticize politicians, entertainers, neighbors, my damn mother...how does that make me ungrateful? I hold Jordan to the same standards I would hold anybody else, including my own mother. I have no problem doing that, and holding myself to a high standard. I dare you to find ANYONE who can say that as a grown man, I have acted out in such ways...don't think you will have much luck. I am not flawless, but I try to be a good person. Maybe Jordan tries also, but I can applaud his achievements as an athlete, but I can also look at his actions as a man and say I don't want to be "Like Mike" when it comes to certain aspects of his character. I will not apologize for that assessment.

 

[Marty Baby]

I'm sorry but I don't remember attacking you in any way...until I decided to retaliate against some of your attacks


No, I wasn't referring to you in reference to the attack, sir. That was intended for Lefty.

The other one was intended for you though, the one that said you weren't very nice.