Frank Breakfast Styleham
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Re:MJ says
LOOK AT THIS THING!
He was a man among men when men were men.
LOOK AT THIS THING!
He was a man among men when men were men.
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My favorite teams
Re:MJ says
Why yes, that is a beard good sir. Quite a full one too.
Why yes, that is a beard good sir. Quite a full one too.
Kush77
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Re:MJ says
houheffna wrote:
Come on. This isn't Rasheed Wallace or Eddie freaking Robinson, it's the greatest player off all-time.
You make it seem like he stood up to Jordan because he was being picked on. Which Jordan would do. But a lot of that has to do with the HUGE ego of Jerry Krause himself.
I'll say it again. Krause was so eager to prove he could build a title team and when he got his chance, he fell on his face.
Jerry Krause's ego was so big that he thought he could strike gold with any draft pick. And here's an example I know you'll agree with because I saw you mention it in another post. Remember when Jerry Krause didn't want to give up that first round drat pick to get Jeff Hornacek in 1994. Krause's ego is so big that he thought he could turn any draft pick into gold. He drafted Dickey Simpkins that year. I would have been willing to give up Scott Williams and the first round pick for Hornacek. But Krause thought he was the super-scout who could find all the diamonds in the rough. But for every good move (Pippen trade, Kukoc, Grant), there were bad (Stacey King, Jason Caffey over Michael Finley, Will Purdue). Krause was an average GM that built a title team around the best player ever. There are lots of GM's that could of done the same, while at the same time not alienating a dynasty team.
I'm not saying Jordan can do no wrong, but lets stop pretending that the oh-so-humble Jerry Krause was just standing up against the evil ego of MJ. Krause has an ego just as big.
houheffna wrote:
Come on. This isn't Rasheed Wallace or Eddie freaking Robinson, it's the greatest player off all-time.
You make it seem like he stood up to Jordan because he was being picked on. Which Jordan would do. But a lot of that has to do with the HUGE ego of Jerry Krause himself.
I'll say it again. Krause was so eager to prove he could build a title team and when he got his chance, he fell on his face.
Jerry Krause's ego was so big that he thought he could strike gold with any draft pick. And here's an example I know you'll agree with because I saw you mention it in another post. Remember when Jerry Krause didn't want to give up that first round drat pick to get Jeff Hornacek in 1994. Krause's ego is so big that he thought he could turn any draft pick into gold. He drafted Dickey Simpkins that year. I would have been willing to give up Scott Williams and the first round pick for Hornacek. But Krause thought he was the super-scout who could find all the diamonds in the rough. But for every good move (Pippen trade, Kukoc, Grant), there were bad (Stacey King, Jason Caffey over Michael Finley, Will Purdue). Krause was an average GM that built a title team around the best player ever. There are lots of GM's that could of done the same, while at the same time not alienating a dynasty team.
I'm not saying Jordan can do no wrong, but lets stop pretending that the oh-so-humble Jerry Krause was just standing up against the evil ego of MJ. Krause has an ego just as big.
Kush77
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Btw, great job working Joe Wolf onto the boards. My God. Can you somehow incorporate David Wood into the discussion?
Talk about two of the biggest stiffs of all-time.
Talk about two of the biggest stiffs of all-time.
houheffna
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"just when I get out...they pull me back in..."
I never said Krause was Jerry West. Far from it. I still think about Hornacek. It upset me at the time. However, the same guy that messed up numerous times made ALL of the personnel decisions outside of Jordan that led to championships with the exception of a few moves that Reinsdorf blocked...
Krause messed up often, but why shouldn't he have faith in his own abilities? You criticize the man for that?
He was a very important part of 6 championship teams...give him his credit for that. He didn't draft Jordan, he did draft Pippen and Grant, he went out and got Rodman...and he traded for Cartwright, a move that Jordan hated, because his buddy had to go. Krause did a good job overall because he was a part of a championship organization...which he was a major part of.
Jordan picked on EVERYBODY! It didn't matter if your ego was big or not...point blank, he was a bully...Sam Smith wrote about it...Roland Lazenby wrote about it...if you didn't want to kiss his ass, there could be a problem. Krause had an immense ego also, for whatever reason, he had one. But let me ask you something...
If Krause goes to the HOF as an inductee and gives a speech totally disrespecting Jordan...would you feel the same way? Would you say "good...Jordan deserved it..." or would you be mad at Krause for insulting the greatest player ever?
That stuff just doesn't mean that much to me as I have gotten older. I don't care who is the greatest at what, right is right and wrong is wrong. I was just raised that way. There are no exceptions. I believe that if someone disrespects you, you let them know about it, and you don't back down. The idea that Jordan gets some kind of universal get away with b.s. card because of his status in basketball is wrong. Krause was wrong, Jordan was wrong...both were petty, and both had immense egos for various reasons. You talk about how Reinsdorf never stopped Krause...he never stopped Jordan either. He maybe should have stopped them both.
I can give you disrespectful, boneheaded things Jordan has done in his career to his own teammates...why go there now? Its over. Jordan needs to move on...
Kush77
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Re:MJ says
houheffna wrote:
When your the best player in the sport, and all of sports, you get away with certain things. He rode teammates, it also made them better. I read how he would give a hard time to guys like Stacey King and Horace Grant. maybe he would be harder on guys because they were Krause's picks, trades etc.. That's wrong. Some of this stuff was before the titles. I think once the team started winning titles Jordan began to appreciate his teammates more. And it's been said by guys like Will Purdue that after he played baseball (and was bad) he learned that not everyone can do what MJ does.
But when it comes to Krause, he just never liked the man. And think some of that goes back to the he's out property comment when he was out with the broken foot.
Krauses ego was huge, no other ownership would botch a dynsaty with the game's best player.
Ok Jerry, he stood up to MJ, congrats. As a result of alienating a dynasty you are hated by Bulls fans and you couldn't even be introduced at your own ring ceremonies or championship rallys.
Let me ask you this, if you were the owner or GM of a team like the Bulls, would you try to keep everyone happy and keep on winning. Or would you try to constantly win little battles to feed your ego like - we won't pay Phil Jackson more than Pat Riley because Pat Riley is also team president. Just pay the damn man, he helped you win multiple titles. At the end of the day it falls on Krause and Reinsdorf. Bottom line.
You brought up Jerry West, he wouldn't have botched that. But the Jerrys did.
You talked about Krause having faith in his own abilities. Not when it comes to the 21st pick in the draft. You pass on a guy like Jeff Hornacek because you don't want to give up the 21st pick in the draft. If the Bulls got Hornacek they would of went to the Finals. But I think they would have lost to Houston. but Jerry's ego is so big that he can find the next Karl Malone with the 21st pick. He gets Dickey Simpkins. Jerry had a good night in 1987 and drafted Kukoc in the 2nd round in 1990. Outside of that his drafts haven't been that great. 1999 was good with Brand and Artest, but he ended up trading both guys. 1989 he got Armstrong but drafted King 6th and Jeff Sanders.
And quite possibly the worst draft pick ever - Dalibor Bagaric. No one had this guy in the first round. But the Sleuth knows better right? "I'll outsmart everyone and draft a guy no one has on there board" and how did that work. The guy was one of the biggest stiff in the history of the NBA.
Will Purdue, Brad Sellars, Jason Caffey over Michael Finley, all the wasted 2nd round picks in the early 2000's when guys like Redd and Ginobili could have been picked. Krause
was an average GM but had the ego of a great GM like Jerry West.
And i agree with standing up to a guy like Jordan. You have to at some point. Sam Sith told the story of Bill Cartwright telling Jordan that "if you talk to me like that again I'll break your legs."
But it wasn't just Jordan, the Jerry alienated guys like Horace Grant, Scott Williams, Scottie Pippen, Phil Jackson. It wasn't just Jordan.
I gave a list of great dynasty that didn't break up over management vs player/coach issues. The Jerrys and their track record of pettyness is the reason why it ended.
I'll ask you this, if Jerry West was running the Bulls in the 1990's or Mark Cuban, Donnie Walsh, hell Red Auerbach, would things end the way they did? I would bet not.
houheffna wrote:
When your the best player in the sport, and all of sports, you get away with certain things. He rode teammates, it also made them better. I read how he would give a hard time to guys like Stacey King and Horace Grant. maybe he would be harder on guys because they were Krause's picks, trades etc.. That's wrong. Some of this stuff was before the titles. I think once the team started winning titles Jordan began to appreciate his teammates more. And it's been said by guys like Will Purdue that after he played baseball (and was bad) he learned that not everyone can do what MJ does.
But when it comes to Krause, he just never liked the man. And think some of that goes back to the he's out property comment when he was out with the broken foot.
Krauses ego was huge, no other ownership would botch a dynsaty with the game's best player.
Ok Jerry, he stood up to MJ, congrats. As a result of alienating a dynasty you are hated by Bulls fans and you couldn't even be introduced at your own ring ceremonies or championship rallys.
Let me ask you this, if you were the owner or GM of a team like the Bulls, would you try to keep everyone happy and keep on winning. Or would you try to constantly win little battles to feed your ego like - we won't pay Phil Jackson more than Pat Riley because Pat Riley is also team president. Just pay the damn man, he helped you win multiple titles. At the end of the day it falls on Krause and Reinsdorf. Bottom line.
You brought up Jerry West, he wouldn't have botched that. But the Jerrys did.
You talked about Krause having faith in his own abilities. Not when it comes to the 21st pick in the draft. You pass on a guy like Jeff Hornacek because you don't want to give up the 21st pick in the draft. If the Bulls got Hornacek they would of went to the Finals. But I think they would have lost to Houston. but Jerry's ego is so big that he can find the next Karl Malone with the 21st pick. He gets Dickey Simpkins. Jerry had a good night in 1987 and drafted Kukoc in the 2nd round in 1990. Outside of that his drafts haven't been that great. 1999 was good with Brand and Artest, but he ended up trading both guys. 1989 he got Armstrong but drafted King 6th and Jeff Sanders.
And quite possibly the worst draft pick ever - Dalibor Bagaric. No one had this guy in the first round. But the Sleuth knows better right? "I'll outsmart everyone and draft a guy no one has on there board" and how did that work. The guy was one of the biggest stiff in the history of the NBA.
Will Purdue, Brad Sellars, Jason Caffey over Michael Finley, all the wasted 2nd round picks in the early 2000's when guys like Redd and Ginobili could have been picked. Krause
was an average GM but had the ego of a great GM like Jerry West.
And i agree with standing up to a guy like Jordan. You have to at some point. Sam Sith told the story of Bill Cartwright telling Jordan that "if you talk to me like that again I'll break your legs."
But it wasn't just Jordan, the Jerry alienated guys like Horace Grant, Scott Williams, Scottie Pippen, Phil Jackson. It wasn't just Jordan.
I gave a list of great dynasty that didn't break up over management vs player/coach issues. The Jerrys and their track record of pettyness is the reason why it ended.
I'll ask you this, if Jerry West was running the Bulls in the 1990's or Mark Cuban, Donnie Walsh, hell Red Auerbach, would things end the way they did? I would bet not.
houheffna
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Re:MJ says
I think the question is do we know exactly what went on? Where did you get this stuff about him not liking Jordan...never heard about that...from anybody. But the thing is, he doesn't have to like him...I cannot for the life of me understand the canonization of an athlete in this country. If Jordan was an asshole, he was an asshole. He left town, no one drove him out. Jordan didn't want Cartwright, Jordan didn't want Phil Jackson, Jordan didn't want Horace Grant...Jordan wasn't in charge...I am glad. How about those Bobcats! Nothing changed much once titles were being won. Jordan was not the most sociable person in the group. You point out Krause's bad moves, he won 6 championships! The good outweighed the bad as far as I am concerned. You continue to blame him for the dynasty breaking up...that team was not going to win another championship in my opinion but I gave you the concrete evidence concerning what happened...there is nothing shown that can refute the Sam Smith article...so that's it.
I think the question is do we know exactly what went on? Where did you get this stuff about him not liking Jordan...never heard about that...from anybody. But the thing is, he doesn't have to like him...I cannot for the life of me understand the canonization of an athlete in this country. If Jordan was an asshole, he was an asshole. He left town, no one drove him out. Jordan didn't want Cartwright, Jordan didn't want Phil Jackson, Jordan didn't want Horace Grant...Jordan wasn't in charge...I am glad. How about those Bobcats! Nothing changed much once titles were being won. Jordan was not the most sociable person in the group. You point out Krause's bad moves, he won 6 championships! The good outweighed the bad as far as I am concerned. You continue to blame him for the dynasty breaking up...that team was not going to win another championship in my opinion but I gave you the concrete evidence concerning what happened...there is nothing shown that can refute the Sam Smith article...so that's it.
Frank Breakfast Styleham
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Re:MJ says
Aw, it's always so wonderful to hear a Joe Wolf reference but a David Wood reference? Tis' better!
Jordan wanted Wolf over Polynice and Pippen! Goes to show he isn't that much better than Krause huh?
But I don't think Joe Wolf is as bad as we remember him. Did you know there's a song written in honor of Joe Wolf?
Have a listen...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvFoDzpPx5U
Kush77 wrote:
Aw, it's always so wonderful to hear a Joe Wolf reference but a David Wood reference? Tis' better!
Jordan wanted Wolf over Polynice and Pippen! Goes to show he isn't that much better than Krause huh?
But I don't think Joe Wolf is as bad as we remember him. Did you know there's a song written in honor of Joe Wolf?
Have a listen...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvFoDzpPx5U
Kush77 wrote:
Kush77
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Re:MJ says
houheffna wrote:
"And when it comes to Krause, he just didn't like the man" - That was Jordan not liking Krause.
I'll say it again, at the end of the day it was the pettiness of Krause and JR that alienated the players and led to sour relationships that led to the breakup.
You still can't answer my questions about what other GM or owners in sports would ruin that? You have the greatest player in sports, the best money maker in sports and you somehow blow it. And again, it wasn't just Jordan. They pretty much had poor relationships with all the star players, Jordan, Pippen Grant, Phil Jackson. Those are the top 4 figures of the franchise during my time watching the Bulls.
The common denominator are the Jerrys.
I don't need to refute Sam Smith's article. Technically could Jordan have come back. Sure. Technically. Technically Sam Smith is right. But you have to scratch the surface. Management alienated Jordan by screwing with Phil Jackson and letting that relationship sour to the point of him walking away. That goes back to the Jerrys.
Technically when Jerry says "organizations win championships", technically it could be organizations and fans win championships. Technically if fans don't go to games, no money is made, the business folds. Technically. But we know that wouldn't happen.
Jerry won 6 championships, technically. But again, any decent GM can build a title around the worlds greatest player. Jerry doesn't get any extra credit for that, sorry. When he got his chance to build a team on his own, he failed. And failing is fine, but you were so quick to get rid of the championship team to do it. That's what makes it worse.
The good outweighed the bad? No it didn't, not as far as Jerry Krause's entire history is concerned. Krause was an average GM at best, with the ego twice the size.
The Bulls win the NBA championship if they came back in 1999. They would have beaten the Spurs. I know you disagree there because that's just me being a Bulls homer. But the East was a joke. The Bulls would have coasted to the NBA Finals and would have beat the Spurs in 6 just like they did everyone else (except LA).
I'll say it again, these poor relationships didn't just develop in 1998 or 1999. This was years and years of pettiness that built up over time that led to bad relationships. At the end of the day it falls on the Jerry because they are the only ones in sports dumb enough to alienate the best athlete in the world. And other players/coaches.
PLEASE - give me one example of another ownership group that did the same, especially while said player was still winning.
If a guy like Mark Cuban owned the Bulls, this never happens. Bottom line. 99% of owners would LOVE to have the cash cow that was the 90's Chicago Bulls. But the Jerrys somehow found a way to screw it up.
houheffna wrote:
"And when it comes to Krause, he just didn't like the man" - That was Jordan not liking Krause.
I'll say it again, at the end of the day it was the pettiness of Krause and JR that alienated the players and led to sour relationships that led to the breakup.
You still can't answer my questions about what other GM or owners in sports would ruin that? You have the greatest player in sports, the best money maker in sports and you somehow blow it. And again, it wasn't just Jordan. They pretty much had poor relationships with all the star players, Jordan, Pippen Grant, Phil Jackson. Those are the top 4 figures of the franchise during my time watching the Bulls.
The common denominator are the Jerrys.
I don't need to refute Sam Smith's article. Technically could Jordan have come back. Sure. Technically. Technically Sam Smith is right. But you have to scratch the surface. Management alienated Jordan by screwing with Phil Jackson and letting that relationship sour to the point of him walking away. That goes back to the Jerrys.
Technically when Jerry says "organizations win championships", technically it could be organizations and fans win championships. Technically if fans don't go to games, no money is made, the business folds. Technically. But we know that wouldn't happen.
Jerry won 6 championships, technically. But again, any decent GM can build a title around the worlds greatest player. Jerry doesn't get any extra credit for that, sorry. When he got his chance to build a team on his own, he failed. And failing is fine, but you were so quick to get rid of the championship team to do it. That's what makes it worse.
The good outweighed the bad? No it didn't, not as far as Jerry Krause's entire history is concerned. Krause was an average GM at best, with the ego twice the size.
The Bulls win the NBA championship if they came back in 1999. They would have beaten the Spurs. I know you disagree there because that's just me being a Bulls homer. But the East was a joke. The Bulls would have coasted to the NBA Finals and would have beat the Spurs in 6 just like they did everyone else (except LA).
I'll say it again, these poor relationships didn't just develop in 1998 or 1999. This was years and years of pettiness that built up over time that led to bad relationships. At the end of the day it falls on the Jerry because they are the only ones in sports dumb enough to alienate the best athlete in the world. And other players/coaches.
PLEASE - give me one example of another ownership group that did the same, especially while said player was still winning.
If a guy like Mark Cuban owned the Bulls, this never happens. Bottom line. 99% of owners would LOVE to have the cash cow that was the 90's Chicago Bulls. But the Jerrys somehow found a way to screw it up.
houheffna
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Re:MJ says
Jordan still is the highest paid player on one year salary in the history of the NBA. No one else is close. He wanted to play baseball, they let him play baseball. Jordan basically got what he wanted...except for Joe Wolf and Walter Davis and Charles Oakley. And that is why he didn't like Krause. Krause didn't consult him on personnel decisions. My question is what the hell did Jerry Krause do to you? Any average GM could have won a title, they couldn't have won 6 though. That is not an easy task. You think the average GM would have found Phil Jackson? Is Jackson an average coach? He finds situations where he can come right in and win...with a couple of hall of famers in their prime. The closest thing to Michael Jordan walking (and again, better skilled in certain areas...) and guess who is coaching him? Could Doug Collins have won a championship or two? Sure. Jackson won 6, and he should get his credit. But Krause shouldn't...makes entirely no sense. Nobody in the league wanted him. Krause fired a coach because he didn't want Jackson and Tex Winter's offense. He fired Doug Collins for a similar reason, not using the triangle. They would win 6 titles with that offense. If Jordan could have done it alone...he wouldn't have gone on those recruiting trips in 1995 trying to find a replacement for Horace. And he WAS consulted before they got Rodman...so was Jackson and Pippen.
You ask the same question, my answer is I don't remember it EVER happening, including here in Chicago. I can tell you of an instance where Jordan messed up a franchise...talk to the Washington Wizards about that...Jordan was not a victim in that situation. Abe Pollin fired his ass for a reason. Jordan was solely to blame for dragging the organization's culture down, while delivering mediocrity and making horrible draft picks. Jordan would then demoralize the players he brought in. I have read where Rip Hamilton had problems with Jordan's ego. Why did Pollin fire the greatest player ever? Because Pollin knew good business, and he knew how to win and what it took. Jordan calling an 18 year old draft pick a "flaming ******" while the player struggles is not a good idea...and indefensible.
So boohoo poor MJ, who half the fans want working for the organization (think I got into it with Stig over that months ago...). He was forced to leave Chicago, nobody forced him to leave, and yes you are being a homer. Scottie was old and inconsistent (the Bulls took good care of him though) and Rodman was a pain in the ass to both Jordan and Jackson.
What the hell has Mark Cuban won? Why are we talking about him? He spends have of his time raving like a damn lunatic and yelling at opposing player's mothers. You don't think he could have been a distraction? Give me a break...Reinsdorf gets shoddy treatment in Chicago for what he has done. He is financially responsible for 7 championships coming to town. No other owner has done diddly here since 1986. I don't care for the antics that Krause pulled or some of Reinsdorf's decisions (His White Sox decisions have bothered me far more than Bulls decisions) but holla back at me when Mark Cuban and Donnie Walsh win a damn championship...
Jordan still is the highest paid player on one year salary in the history of the NBA. No one else is close. He wanted to play baseball, they let him play baseball. Jordan basically got what he wanted...except for Joe Wolf and Walter Davis and Charles Oakley. And that is why he didn't like Krause. Krause didn't consult him on personnel decisions. My question is what the hell did Jerry Krause do to you? Any average GM could have won a title, they couldn't have won 6 though. That is not an easy task. You think the average GM would have found Phil Jackson? Is Jackson an average coach? He finds situations where he can come right in and win...with a couple of hall of famers in their prime. The closest thing to Michael Jordan walking (and again, better skilled in certain areas...) and guess who is coaching him? Could Doug Collins have won a championship or two? Sure. Jackson won 6, and he should get his credit. But Krause shouldn't...makes entirely no sense. Nobody in the league wanted him. Krause fired a coach because he didn't want Jackson and Tex Winter's offense. He fired Doug Collins for a similar reason, not using the triangle. They would win 6 titles with that offense. If Jordan could have done it alone...he wouldn't have gone on those recruiting trips in 1995 trying to find a replacement for Horace. And he WAS consulted before they got Rodman...so was Jackson and Pippen.
You ask the same question, my answer is I don't remember it EVER happening, including here in Chicago. I can tell you of an instance where Jordan messed up a franchise...talk to the Washington Wizards about that...Jordan was not a victim in that situation. Abe Pollin fired his ass for a reason. Jordan was solely to blame for dragging the organization's culture down, while delivering mediocrity and making horrible draft picks. Jordan would then demoralize the players he brought in. I have read where Rip Hamilton had problems with Jordan's ego. Why did Pollin fire the greatest player ever? Because Pollin knew good business, and he knew how to win and what it took. Jordan calling an 18 year old draft pick a "flaming ******" while the player struggles is not a good idea...and indefensible.
So boohoo poor MJ, who half the fans want working for the organization (think I got into it with Stig over that months ago...). He was forced to leave Chicago, nobody forced him to leave, and yes you are being a homer. Scottie was old and inconsistent (the Bulls took good care of him though) and Rodman was a pain in the ass to both Jordan and Jackson.
What the hell has Mark Cuban won? Why are we talking about him? He spends have of his time raving like a damn lunatic and yelling at opposing player's mothers. You don't think he could have been a distraction? Give me a break...Reinsdorf gets shoddy treatment in Chicago for what he has done. He is financially responsible for 7 championships coming to town. No other owner has done diddly here since 1986. I don't care for the antics that Krause pulled or some of Reinsdorf's decisions (His White Sox decisions have bothered me far more than Bulls decisions) but holla back at me when Mark Cuban and Donnie Walsh win a damn championship...
Kush77
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Re:MJ says
houheffna wrote:
When I use Mark Cuban as an example I using an owner who wouldn't let financial issues get in the way. Gee why was the starting PF on three championship teams allowed to walk? But the very next offseason you make a 1-year player (Kukoc) the highest paid player in franchise history. Really? A good owner would keep his championship-winning players happy. That's what I would do if I was the owner of a team that won multiple titles. Wouldn't you?
JR has 7 championships, yes. Because of Michael Jordan and Kenny Williams, that's why. Jr is also the same over that allowed his GM to alienate great players and a great coach. JR is also the same owner that quit on his fans in 1997. You said you're more upset with his Sox moves. So I assume you're a Sox fan? How did you like that White flag trade in 1997? Give me an example of an owner that quit on his team and fan base when you were only 3 1/2 game out. How about adding instead of subtracting and make a run.
No, Mark Cuban hasn't won anything. He took over one of the worst franchises in the NBA and had turnied them into one of the best. Players like to play for him because he takes care of them. So while JR has 6 NBA titles on his owner resume, take a poll of Chicago sports fans and ask them who would you rather have owning your team? I bet Mark Cuban polls better in that.
Because Jerry cares more about profits than winning. That's my opinion.
As for Jordan, let me clear this up. I'm not saying Jordan should get sympathy or we should cry for Jordan. My stance on this issue is at the end of the day it's the Jerrys pettiness that led to the deterioration of the relationships. Moves like paying toni Kukoc more money than guys that delivered titles. Even you would agree that would create friction. But that's how the Jerrys did business.
As for Jordan with the Wiz. He's a terrible GM. I agree with you. I used to say Jordan wasn't as bad as people thought because I didn't think the Hamilton for Stackhouse deal wasn't a bad one. Stackhouse was coming off the two best years of his career and was better than Hamilton. But jordan got heat for that more. But once Brown was a bust and other picks like Adam Morrison, Jordan is a bad GM.
As for Abe Polin firing his ass, I'm sure Abe Polin wasn't complaining about his ass when his team was selling out games for the first time in ages. Good businessman right. I'm sure he loved the money. They didn't win, but they didn't before or haven't since. But R.I.P. Abe.
"Jordan was solely to blame for dragging the organization's culture down" LOL LOL are you serious. That great culture of the Washington Wizards lol. A storied franchise only rivaled by the Yankees and Manchester United lol. Come on.
Should Jordan have called Kwame Brown a ******? No. But to say the greatest player brought down a crap franchise, please. Maybe he can go the the Clippers next and bring them down.
Let's get to the point here. I think you just want Jordan lovers like myself to know that Mike isn't a saint, he can do wrong, and his shit does indeed stink. I agree. He's not an angel.
But in making you're arguments you are starting to make it seem like Jordan was this evil man and everyone is just blind. He did do some good things if I'm not mistaken.
houheffna wrote:
When I use Mark Cuban as an example I using an owner who wouldn't let financial issues get in the way. Gee why was the starting PF on three championship teams allowed to walk? But the very next offseason you make a 1-year player (Kukoc) the highest paid player in franchise history. Really? A good owner would keep his championship-winning players happy. That's what I would do if I was the owner of a team that won multiple titles. Wouldn't you?
JR has 7 championships, yes. Because of Michael Jordan and Kenny Williams, that's why. Jr is also the same over that allowed his GM to alienate great players and a great coach. JR is also the same owner that quit on his fans in 1997. You said you're more upset with his Sox moves. So I assume you're a Sox fan? How did you like that White flag trade in 1997? Give me an example of an owner that quit on his team and fan base when you were only 3 1/2 game out. How about adding instead of subtracting and make a run.
No, Mark Cuban hasn't won anything. He took over one of the worst franchises in the NBA and had turnied them into one of the best. Players like to play for him because he takes care of them. So while JR has 6 NBA titles on his owner resume, take a poll of Chicago sports fans and ask them who would you rather have owning your team? I bet Mark Cuban polls better in that.
Because Jerry cares more about profits than winning. That's my opinion.
As for Jordan, let me clear this up. I'm not saying Jordan should get sympathy or we should cry for Jordan. My stance on this issue is at the end of the day it's the Jerrys pettiness that led to the deterioration of the relationships. Moves like paying toni Kukoc more money than guys that delivered titles. Even you would agree that would create friction. But that's how the Jerrys did business.
As for Jordan with the Wiz. He's a terrible GM. I agree with you. I used to say Jordan wasn't as bad as people thought because I didn't think the Hamilton for Stackhouse deal wasn't a bad one. Stackhouse was coming off the two best years of his career and was better than Hamilton. But jordan got heat for that more. But once Brown was a bust and other picks like Adam Morrison, Jordan is a bad GM.
As for Abe Polin firing his ass, I'm sure Abe Polin wasn't complaining about his ass when his team was selling out games for the first time in ages. Good businessman right. I'm sure he loved the money. They didn't win, but they didn't before or haven't since. But R.I.P. Abe.
"Jordan was solely to blame for dragging the organization's culture down" LOL LOL are you serious. That great culture of the Washington Wizards lol. A storied franchise only rivaled by the Yankees and Manchester United lol. Come on.
Should Jordan have called Kwame Brown a ******? No. But to say the greatest player brought down a crap franchise, please. Maybe he can go the the Clippers next and bring them down.
Let's get to the point here. I think you just want Jordan lovers like myself to know that Mike isn't a saint, he can do wrong, and his shit does indeed stink. I agree. He's not an angel.
But in making you're arguments you are starting to make it seem like Jordan was this evil man and everyone is just blind. He did do some good things if I'm not mistaken.
Frank Breakfast Styleham
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Here we go again everyone!
Brian Kush.
Houhefna.
Round 12.
Ding!
And down goes Hou! Down goes Hou!
Brian Kush.
Houhefna.
Round 12.
Ding!
And down goes Hou! Down goes Hou!
Kush77
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Re:MJ says
Frank Breakfast-Styleham wrote:
I think it's time we take this onto the show.
Hou? You free on Monday afternoon at all?
Frank Breakfast-Styleham wrote:
I think it's time we take this onto the show.
Hou? You free on Monday afternoon at all?
houheffna
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Re:MJ says
Yes Jordan did some great things, many no one else has ever done. He is the greatest player of all time..he turned water to wine...and on and on and on....
But my point is just that Jordan could be an egotistical tyrant in his own right. So could Wilt, so could Magic, Babe Ruth...all great players...tho he seemed to cross over into a more petulant version than either of those when dealing with Bulls management.
His being a great player afforded him a lot of luxuries and leeway. Let Cliff Levingston ask Reinsdorf to tryout for his baseball team...that is the way great players are treated. You have a much bigger problem with Reinsdorf than Jordan does...and so does the fans.
Again, listening to Boers and Bernstein...they say the Bulls fans are by far, the dumbest contingency of fans that any sports organization in town has. I could only shake my head at that statement. The opinion that Reinsdorf is not the fans choice means nothing to me because the fans are bitter based on what they DON'T know...not what they know. Sox fans boo him too. Well, that is too bad...they loved the championship. Should Jerry Buss get any credit for those Lakers titles? Steinbrenner for the Yankees titles? Sure! But no, not Reinsdorf...
Yes Jordan did some great things, many no one else has ever done. He is the greatest player of all time..he turned water to wine...and on and on and on....
But my point is just that Jordan could be an egotistical tyrant in his own right. So could Wilt, so could Magic, Babe Ruth...all great players...tho he seemed to cross over into a more petulant version than either of those when dealing with Bulls management.
His being a great player afforded him a lot of luxuries and leeway. Let Cliff Levingston ask Reinsdorf to tryout for his baseball team...that is the way great players are treated. You have a much bigger problem with Reinsdorf than Jordan does...and so does the fans.
Again, listening to Boers and Bernstein...they say the Bulls fans are by far, the dumbest contingency of fans that any sports organization in town has. I could only shake my head at that statement. The opinion that Reinsdorf is not the fans choice means nothing to me because the fans are bitter based on what they DON'T know...not what they know. Sox fans boo him too. Well, that is too bad...they loved the championship. Should Jerry Buss get any credit for those Lakers titles? Steinbrenner for the Yankees titles? Sure! But no, not Reinsdorf...
houheffna
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Re:MJ says
Wow...just wow.
I may be...I have this senior project happening so I am not sure...if you want my info though I can give it to you...would be a pleasure to go to battle with you (I shake your hand, then WWE style I sneak attack you as you walk away...Frank and Lewinthal boo as I walk from the ring in all of my evil glory...)
Wow...just wow.
I may be...I have this senior project happening so I am not sure...if you want my info though I can give it to you...would be a pleasure to go to battle with you (I shake your hand, then WWE style I sneak attack you as you walk away...Frank and Lewinthal boo as I walk from the ring in all of my evil glory...)
Kush77
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Re:MJ says
houheffna wrote:
I enjoy Boers and Berstien from time to time but I don't take what they say as gospel. Why are Bulls fans the dumbest? With they way I hear them talk about Bears fans - they types that still think Ditka walks on water, that think Orton is better than Cutler because of record, they very things I hear B&B rail on, I would think they would say Bears fans are dumb. But I'll take your word for it on them saying that about Bulls fans. Not sure how they can rate fans bases in every sport when they have worked in Chicago for severals years. How do they know that Texas Ranger fans aren't the dumbest?
Buss and Steinbrenner never quit on their team (white flag trade) or let money get in the way of signing a key member of a title team (Horace Grant).
Is JR a good owner, he's lucky. He lucked out with MJ and the Sox had a good run after Kenny Williams made some good moves. It's not like JR gave Williams a blank check and go sign Tiexeria, Sabathia and Burnett. Williams had to make moves like trading Lee for Podsednik and signing AJ and Iguchi. I believe Williams acquired Contreras the year before and he caught fire down the stretch in 2005.
There was also the strike in 1994. Now I don't remember this well but wasn't JR one of the owners in favor of the strike? That's what I've always heard as a reason why sox fans stayed away for so long. Maybe that's something I can look up in the archives.
Let Cliff Levingston ask Reinsdorf to tryout for his baseball team..
I think you left a part out. Did you mean to say let Cliff Levingston sign with the Bulls? If that was done on J's suggestion then that was a solid move. Cliff was decent off the bench that first title year. Who made the call on Dennis Hopson? Krause?
houheffna wrote:
I enjoy Boers and Berstien from time to time but I don't take what they say as gospel. Why are Bulls fans the dumbest? With they way I hear them talk about Bears fans - they types that still think Ditka walks on water, that think Orton is better than Cutler because of record, they very things I hear B&B rail on, I would think they would say Bears fans are dumb. But I'll take your word for it on them saying that about Bulls fans. Not sure how they can rate fans bases in every sport when they have worked in Chicago for severals years. How do they know that Texas Ranger fans aren't the dumbest?
Buss and Steinbrenner never quit on their team (white flag trade) or let money get in the way of signing a key member of a title team (Horace Grant).
Is JR a good owner, he's lucky. He lucked out with MJ and the Sox had a good run after Kenny Williams made some good moves. It's not like JR gave Williams a blank check and go sign Tiexeria, Sabathia and Burnett. Williams had to make moves like trading Lee for Podsednik and signing AJ and Iguchi. I believe Williams acquired Contreras the year before and he caught fire down the stretch in 2005.
There was also the strike in 1994. Now I don't remember this well but wasn't JR one of the owners in favor of the strike? That's what I've always heard as a reason why sox fans stayed away for so long. Maybe that's something I can look up in the archives.
Let Cliff Levingston ask Reinsdorf to tryout for his baseball team..
I think you left a part out. Did you mean to say let Cliff Levingston sign with the Bulls? If that was done on J's suggestion then that was a solid move. Cliff was decent off the bench that first title year. Who made the call on Dennis Hopson? Krause?
houheffna
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Re:MJ says
Dude, you must be a Cubs fan...
First, Kenny Williams did what GMs are supposed to do, make moves an maneuver personnel around according to budget. Not just sign players for a stockpile of money. I don't like the way the Yankees win...don't think its good for baseball. But it gives me something to root against every year.
Steinbrenner let Reggie Jackson go...right? Much worse than the Bulls/Horace thing. And don't tell me Steinbrenner couldn't be one of the most self-absorbed, egotistical cretins in sports at times himself. And remember, as successful as he was, He would go close to 20 years between championships...or do you not remember the Mattingly years?
As far as Boers and Bernstein...they were talking about Chicago. In Chicago, Bulls fans are the dumbest. They were referring to all of the calls from people talking about not trading Deng to get Kobe and they talked about people pining for Ben Gordon like Bulls fans do with Orton...they don't quite get all of the Jordan worship post retirement either. I think they consider Bulls so dumb because after watching good basketball throughout the Jordan era, people seem not to know what they are talking about. Its not like that in LA and it is DEFINITELY not like that in Boston, because I have listened to some of their shows. I agree with B&B most of the time, I could be a "homer" in that way because I was reading Boers stuff over 20 years ago when he was at the Sun-Times. Bernstein can be over the top a lot of the times. I am afraid something is going to happen to him one day.
Wow way to go...pointing out Jordan's suggestion that was actually worth listening to, now lets see you point out all of the suggestions that Krause ignored...who was right concerning those?
Yes he was in favor of the strike, what's your point? He was a part of the strike because he DIDNT want to win a championship?
Reinsdorf didn't give Williams a blank check...he did give him close to 20 mil to get ARod...I get it from all sides on this site. People make statements like, he spends so much on the White Sox comparable to the Bulls...and now this...Williams wins though Reinsdorf is stingy...wow...crazy. Sabathia DID NOT WANT TO COME HERE. You gotta be a Cubs fan man...gotta be. Plus, who was this pitcher, they got from San Diego? Can't remember his name...what is it? Oh you'll figure it out...but yeah, Reinsdorf is cheap.
Dude, you must be a Cubs fan...
First, Kenny Williams did what GMs are supposed to do, make moves an maneuver personnel around according to budget. Not just sign players for a stockpile of money. I don't like the way the Yankees win...don't think its good for baseball. But it gives me something to root against every year.
Steinbrenner let Reggie Jackson go...right? Much worse than the Bulls/Horace thing. And don't tell me Steinbrenner couldn't be one of the most self-absorbed, egotistical cretins in sports at times himself. And remember, as successful as he was, He would go close to 20 years between championships...or do you not remember the Mattingly years?
As far as Boers and Bernstein...they were talking about Chicago. In Chicago, Bulls fans are the dumbest. They were referring to all of the calls from people talking about not trading Deng to get Kobe and they talked about people pining for Ben Gordon like Bulls fans do with Orton...they don't quite get all of the Jordan worship post retirement either. I think they consider Bulls so dumb because after watching good basketball throughout the Jordan era, people seem not to know what they are talking about. Its not like that in LA and it is DEFINITELY not like that in Boston, because I have listened to some of their shows. I agree with B&B most of the time, I could be a "homer" in that way because I was reading Boers stuff over 20 years ago when he was at the Sun-Times. Bernstein can be over the top a lot of the times. I am afraid something is going to happen to him one day.
Wow way to go...pointing out Jordan's suggestion that was actually worth listening to, now lets see you point out all of the suggestions that Krause ignored...who was right concerning those?
Yes he was in favor of the strike, what's your point? He was a part of the strike because he DIDNT want to win a championship?
Reinsdorf didn't give Williams a blank check...he did give him close to 20 mil to get ARod...I get it from all sides on this site. People make statements like, he spends so much on the White Sox comparable to the Bulls...and now this...Williams wins though Reinsdorf is stingy...wow...crazy. Sabathia DID NOT WANT TO COME HERE. You gotta be a Cubs fan man...gotta be. Plus, who was this pitcher, they got from San Diego? Can't remember his name...what is it? Oh you'll figure it out...but yeah, Reinsdorf is cheap.
Kush77
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Re:MJ says
houheffna wrote:
Whoa whoa whoa, you're really taking my stuff of context.
When I speak of the 2005 Chicago White Sox, I give Kenny Williams credit for making that team a championship team with the moves he made. Reinsdorf didn't give him a blank check to sign anyone big in 2005. I assume trading Carlos Lee for Podsednik cut the payroll?
I didn't suggest that the Sox get Sabathia. What I meant was in 2005 Kenny Williams wasn't allowed to go on a spending spree like the Sabathia/Burnett/Tiexera 2009 Yankees. I wasn't suggesting that the Sox get Sabathia or any of those guys. What I'm saying is Kenny Williams made great moves in 2005 without the benefit of a blank check. Therefore I credit Williams much more than Reinsdorf for the 2005 title.
I am a Cubs fan but I don't see what that has to do with anything. I'm giving credit where credit is due, to Kenny Williams.
I still haven't got your thoughts on the White Flag trade?
Steinbrenner did let Reggie go but was it over money? I was 3 or 4 years old I'm not sure. When it comes to Steinbrenner, he ain't cheap. He'll reward guys that deliver championships (and guys that don't apparently) he would play petty games with the baseball equivalent to Horace Grant.
I just read that Jackson signed with the Angels after the 1981 season. So he played out his full 5-year contract with the Yankees. Why the Yankees elected not to re-sign him, I don't know.
And yeah, the Yanks went almost 20 years without winning a title, it's baseball, it's a lot harder to win in baseball than any other sport. Out teams have gone 101 years and about 87 between titles. Back then only 4 teams made the playoffs. A lot of parity too, the 80's had a different champion each season. But it wasn't from a lack of trying. I remember the Yankees making an offer for Greg Maddux in 1992 but he didn't want to play in New York.
The one Jordan move, Cliff Levingston. Hey, you brought his name up, not me.
I don't know why Jordan gets so much grief over the Walter Davis thing. Walter Davis was a good player. Hell, he would have been a better signing than Dennis Hopson. But Jordan's allegiance to UNC guys is his undoing. Sean May. I knew that guy was gonna be a bum in the NBA. Raymond Felton, he's okay. Joe Wolf? Ugh.
But trading Charles Oakley pissed off Jordan. that was not only his friend but his enforcer. And it's not like Jordan didn't have a case for Oakley. He lost the rebounding title to Michael Cage that year by 1 rebound I think. Oakley was a good player.
houheffna wrote:
Whoa whoa whoa, you're really taking my stuff of context.
When I speak of the 2005 Chicago White Sox, I give Kenny Williams credit for making that team a championship team with the moves he made. Reinsdorf didn't give him a blank check to sign anyone big in 2005. I assume trading Carlos Lee for Podsednik cut the payroll?
I didn't suggest that the Sox get Sabathia. What I meant was in 2005 Kenny Williams wasn't allowed to go on a spending spree like the Sabathia/Burnett/Tiexera 2009 Yankees. I wasn't suggesting that the Sox get Sabathia or any of those guys. What I'm saying is Kenny Williams made great moves in 2005 without the benefit of a blank check. Therefore I credit Williams much more than Reinsdorf for the 2005 title.
I am a Cubs fan but I don't see what that has to do with anything. I'm giving credit where credit is due, to Kenny Williams.
I still haven't got your thoughts on the White Flag trade?
Steinbrenner did let Reggie go but was it over money? I was 3 or 4 years old I'm not sure. When it comes to Steinbrenner, he ain't cheap. He'll reward guys that deliver championships (and guys that don't apparently) he would play petty games with the baseball equivalent to Horace Grant.
I just read that Jackson signed with the Angels after the 1981 season. So he played out his full 5-year contract with the Yankees. Why the Yankees elected not to re-sign him, I don't know.
And yeah, the Yanks went almost 20 years without winning a title, it's baseball, it's a lot harder to win in baseball than any other sport. Out teams have gone 101 years and about 87 between titles. Back then only 4 teams made the playoffs. A lot of parity too, the 80's had a different champion each season. But it wasn't from a lack of trying. I remember the Yankees making an offer for Greg Maddux in 1992 but he didn't want to play in New York.
The one Jordan move, Cliff Levingston. Hey, you brought his name up, not me.
I don't know why Jordan gets so much grief over the Walter Davis thing. Walter Davis was a good player. Hell, he would have been a better signing than Dennis Hopson. But Jordan's allegiance to UNC guys is his undoing. Sean May. I knew that guy was gonna be a bum in the NBA. Raymond Felton, he's okay. Joe Wolf? Ugh.
But trading Charles Oakley pissed off Jordan. that was not only his friend but his enforcer. And it's not like Jordan didn't have a case for Oakley. He lost the rebounding title to Michael Cage that year by 1 rebound I think. Oakley was a good player.
Kush77
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Re:MJ says
houheffna wrote:
houheffna wrote:
Frank Breakfast Styleham
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Re:MJ says
haha boy oh boy i can't wait for this!
Kush vs. Heffna. This has the makings of an all-time classic.
Whose your $$$$$ on everyone?
I know who mines on!
On a similar note, rumor has it my good friends at Chicago Bullseye have graciously invited yours truly for an exclusive sit-down discussion on a number of topics.
Fred and Mark, make sure to call my people and my secretary will let you know when a good time is. I'll make my triumphant return to the States in late January so anytime then pretty much.
Kush77 wrote:
haha boy oh boy i can't wait for this!
Kush vs. Heffna. This has the makings of an all-time classic.
Whose your $$$$$ on everyone?
I know who mines on!
On a similar note, rumor has it my good friends at Chicago Bullseye have graciously invited yours truly for an exclusive sit-down discussion on a number of topics.
Fred and Mark, make sure to call my people and my secretary will let you know when a good time is. I'll make my triumphant return to the States in late January so anytime then pretty much.
Kush77 wrote: