MVP watch...face the facts gentlemen...

houheffna

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Lebron is king...sorry to say it but dude is killing right now. Question my Bulls loyalty if you want, he is sooooooo much better than anybody else...its not close. Rose might be your runner up...

NBA Awards Watch - ESPN
 

pinkizdead

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i'm going to grudgingly agree. If the bulls somehow get the number1 seed, we might have a stronger argument.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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I disagree and I do believe Derrick Rose is the MVP this year if we are basing this off of who has meant the most wins for his respective teams. LeBron James is probably the best player in the NBA overall right now, but that Miami team would still have the vast majority of their wins if LeBron James had not played all season.

I think it's basically a 4-way race between Rose, Paul, Nowitzki, and James. There can be good cases made for any of those 4.
 

houheffna

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I disagree and I do believe Derrick Rose is the MVP this year if we are basing this off of who has meant the most wins for his respective teams. LeBron James is probably the best player in the NBA overall right now, but that Miami team would still have the vast majority of their wins if LeBron James had not played all season.

I think it's basically a 4-way race between Rose, Paul, Nowitzki, and James. There can be good cases made for any of those 4.

A vast majority like what? They wouldn't be contenders without Lebron...that is basically it...
 

Anytime23

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Take out LeBron and you still have Wade whos arguably the best SG and top 3 player in the league and a multi all-star in Chris Bosh. It would be complete horse shit if LeBron got MVP. He may be playing better ball, but he means less to Miami than Rose does to Chicago or Howard to Orlando.
 
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houheffna

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Take out LeBron and you still have Wade whos arguably the best SG and top 3 player in the league and a multi all-star in Chris Bosh. It would be complete horse shit if LeBron got MVP. He may be playing better ball, but he means less to Miami than Rose does to Chicago or Howard to Orlando.

With that argument, Jordan didn't deserve 4 of those 5 MVPs....
 

Anytime23

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Great point but did Pippen win a ring without Jordan? No. Did Wade without LeBron? Yes and Wade didnt have a player of Bosh's caliber either. Just a real deep team of role players and over the hill vets.
 

houheffna

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Great point but did Pippen win a ring without Jordan? No. Did Wade without LeBron? Yes and Wade didnt have a player of Bosh's caliber either. Just a real deep team of role players and over the hill vets.

Shaq was better and much more valuable than Bosh is now...that said, Wade has done nothing over the past 5 years with mediocrity compared to what Lebron has done with a mediocre team.

None of that matters though. The Heat are the best team in the league and I don't think there is any doubt that Lebron is the main reason.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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With that argument, Jordan didn't deserve 4 of those 5 MVPs....

I can speak for the Bulls' teams that I saw every single game from 1995-1998. Sure, they would have been a very good team even without Scottie or Michael. But they truly needed all of these guys to beat the likes of Seattle, Utah, and later on Indiana: Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper. And you can even make the case for a guy like Kerr, too.

There's no way the Bulls would have come even close to 72-10 without Jordan. They would have been around a 50 win team. In 1997-98, Pippen missed 35 games and the Bulls still finished with 61 (I believe) or 62 wins.

Miami would be pretty mediocre without LeBron James. But the Bulls would be one of the worst teams in the league this season without Derrick Rose. And let's not forget that CHI is only 1 game behind MIA in the loss column.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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These "without Shaq" arguments are utter b.s. Sorry... I mean... you need to look at the entire team surrounding these MVP candidates and the league as a whole...

I can see why people would put Rose, Paul, Nowitzki, and Howard ahead of James in an MVP race this season. These teams are have just a few less wins than Miami this season, and all of these guys mean more to their teams' success than James does.

But we should all face it. Sure, we are all excited now because Rose is an MVP candidate. But the award doesn't really mean much. It's a regular season award, and the people who vote on it all have different standards for what the criteria for being deserving to win the trophy actually means... it's a subjective award.

And even if there was a given criteria set... it is still just a regular season award and doesn't mean a whole lot at all when it comes to playoff success. Look at the Cavs' the last two seasons... they finished with the league's best record but there is no way they would have beaten a team like the Lakers... they couldn't even beat ORL or BOS.
 
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Anytime23

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LeBron may be the main reason but id say having Wade their definitely should keep him out of 1st. Look at any of the MVP articles and you always see wade in the top 10.

Id take Bosh now over Shaq then. But i guess it depends on the surrounding talent. Shaq has his stretches where he was dominant but i dont think he was nearly as consistent as Bosh has been after he got out of that early slump. But any of that is irrelevant.


Wades gotten very average heat teams to the playoff by himself. That Heat team last year was awful, worse than what LeBron has dealt with. The Heat wouldnt be where they are without LeBron but they wouldnt be a sinking ship without him. They already have an elite talent in Wade.
 

houheffna

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I can speak for the Bulls' teams that I saw every single game from 1995-1998. Sure, they would have been a very good team even without Scottie or Michael. But they truly needed all of these guys to beat the likes of Seattle, Utah, and later on Indiana: Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper. And you can even make the case for a guy like Kerr, too.

There's no way the Bulls would have come even close to 72-10 without Jordan. They would have been around a 50 win team. In 1997-98, Pippen missed 35 games and the Bulls still finished with 61 (I believe) or 62 wins.

Miami would be pretty mediocre without LeBron James. But the Bulls would be one of the worst teams in the league this season without Derrick Rose. And let's not forget that CHI is only 1 game behind MIA in the loss column.

Those teams would not have been very good without both Scottie and Micheal. Not at all, that is funny to even say that. I think some of those wins came because the league overall sucked pretty badly.

That said, as far as individual performances Lebron has played and defended every position on the floor this season...think about that for a minute...

And again, Jordan, Bird, Magic...a lot of players would not have won MVP if it depended on how good other players on their team were. Lebron is playing the best basketball in the league right now. I think its going to be close, but I have a feeling that people will vote against Lebron more than for anyone else...
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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i'm going to grudgingly agree. If the bulls somehow get the number1 seed, we might have a stronger argument.

If the Bulls had the number 1 seed... I don't see any way, shape, or form that anyone could argue for James deserving the MVP award over Rose... Right now, they are 2 games behind Miami and it is a debate.
 

houheffna

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These "without Shaq" arguments are utter b.s. Sorry... I mean... you need to look at the entire team surrounding these MVP candidates and the league as a whole...

I can see why people would put Rose, Paul, Nowitzki, and Howard ahead of James in an MVP race this season. These teams are have just a few less wins than Miami this season, and all of these guys mean more to their teams' success than James does.

But we should all face it. Sure, we are all excited now because Rose is an MVP candidate. But the award doesn't really mean much. It's a regular season award, and the people who vote on it all have different standards for what the criteria for being deserving to win the trophy actually means... it's a subjective award.

And even if there was a given criteria set... it is still just a regular season award and doesn't mean a whole lot at all when it comes to playoff success. Look at the Cavs' the last two seasons... they finished with the league's best record but there is no way they would have beaten a team like the Lakers... they couldn't even beat ORL or BOS.

Name an MVP who is not in the hall of fame...it is a very prestigious award...

What is utter b.s. about the Shaq talk? Help me out with that...

I just want Bulls fans to understand its not cut and dry. Lebron is much better than anybody else in the league. It will be hard to imagine anybody having a better season than him, much like Jordan in the 1990's. James will be a finalist for MVP for the next 5+ years most likely. And if he'd come here...people would have pumped him up for league MVP on this forum too.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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Those teams would not have been very good without both Scottie and Micheal. Not at all, that is funny to even say that. I think some of those wins came because the league overall sucked pretty badly.

That said, as far as individual performances Lebron has played and defended every position on the floor this season...think about that for a minute...

And again, Jordan, Bird, Magic...a lot of players would not have won MVP if it depended on how good other players on their team were. Lebron is playing the best basketball in the league right now. I think its going to be close, but I have a feeling that people will vote against Lebron more than for anyone else...

Saying the league sucked back then is a little bit of a stretch, I think. There was a lot more of a brute style of play back then, but it's not like there weren't supremely talented guys. There was just a different mentality back then, and arguably an even stronger cohesive team bond (generally). Yeah, this was during the time of acquiring a lot of expansion teams (most recently Vancouver and Toronto) and a lot of people were saying that the talent in the NBA was being watered down. But some of the top teams, like Indiana, Utah, Houston, and Seattle were all extremely well-oiled machines, stacked, and very talented individual players.

But I do think that teams in the mid-80s to 90s was the toughest era to play in because of not only the physical play, but because of the caliber teams there were back then. Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, Knicks, Sonics... even the Cavs, Bulls, and Jazz were young and good. The Sixers I remember had some pretty stacked teams as well.

And let's not forget that Jordan also won the MVP award 3 times in that era... it's hard to say that he didn't deserve it just because the Bulls would have still been decent without him. There were years where he was definitely the best player in the NBA and still didn't win it. 1993 (Barkley) and 1997 (Malone). And in 1997, Malone won it over Malone despite the Bulls having the better record. I'm not so sure he deserved it, but the case was that he was much more vital to his team's success than Jordan was. If Malone didn't play then the Jazz would have been terrible defensively and would have been entirely too shaky offensively. Without Jordan, the Bulls still would have been very good defensively, and would have had Toni Kukoc to help fill the void offensively. And Pippen was very much capable of averaging nearly 25 points per-game if Jordan was not around (much like Wade here in 2011 for Miami if James was gone).

But, yeah, I agree. You can't win the MVP award if you don't have decent enough teammates to win an x-amount of games... that's just simply because 1 player vs. 5 can't win games for you. And the MVP award is measured in large part about how many wins you were responsible for getting your team to win---pushing them over the edge.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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Name an MVP who is not in the hall of fame...it is a very prestigious award...

What is utter b.s. about the Shaq talk? Help me out with that...

I just want Bulls fans to understand its not cut and dry. Lebron is much better than anybody else in the league. It will be hard to imagine anybody having a better season than him, much like Jordan in the 1990's. James will be a finalist for MVP for the next 5+ years most likely. And if he'd come here...people would have pumped him up for league MVP on this forum too.

About the Shaq-talk... I just tire of hearing the cases about 'oh he had Shaq' and blah blah blah in the cases of Kobe not being able to win without Shaq and then Wade not being able to win without Shaq. It was more of an emotional point than anthing of substance.

And 'name an MVP who is not in the Hall of Fame'... that is a head-scratcher because Kobe Bryant isn't in the HOF yet. Nor James. Nor Nash, nor Nowitzki. Tim Duncan isn't. Nor is Allen Iverson.

(yet)

Derrick Rose sure is looking like he may end up in that group of guys pretty soon.

MVP awards tend to come before being inducted into the HOF...

And I know that it isn't cut-and-dry that Rose is the MVP. By the standards I've always had for the MVP, he definitely looks like he deserves it more than LeBron James. There is a reason Nash has 2 MVP trophies the same years Kobe Bryant was the undisputed best player in the league... the Suns won tons of games those years, and without Nash... they would have been pretty bad. The Lakers would have been even worse without Kobe, but they weren't even capable of winning a very high number of games even with him.
 

Shakes

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Eh, I think LeBron would win it if the award was fair, but it's not fair. People don't like him and I think he'll lose votes for it.
 

waldo7239117

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Lebron has Wade and he's putting up good numbers because teams have their eyes on Wade/Bosh so double teaming isn't there.
 

houheffna

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Lebron has Wade and he's putting up good numbers because teams have their eyes on Wade/Bosh so double teaming isn't there.

Teams have their eyes on Lebron...Wade and Bosh are afterthoughts. Stopping Lebron is number one...and Lebron does get doubled fairly often...
 

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