MVP watch...face the facts gentlemen...

[Diddy1122]

I love this "Lebron won't win cuz of the haters" like fans get to vote. It's sportswriters voting & even despite all the bad press he got, the majority of writers still kiss his ass & think he's amazing, which I'm not denying he is.

This is why I put Rose ahead of Lebron, though it's mighty close right now. Not a single sportswriter, & many fans for that matter, thought we would be anywhere near this good this year while everyone in the world was crowning Miami champs before they even played a single game together. Rose has carried us thru injuries to Boozer & Noah & made us into a team to beat THIS YEAR. That gives him the edge in my eyes, but if Lebron wins I'm not going to be all up in arms because he is the best player in the league, there's absolutely no denying that.

 

[houheffna]

I love this "Lebron won't win cuz of the haters" like fans get to vote. It's sportswriters voting & even despite all the bad press he got, the majority of writers still kiss his ass & think he's amazing, which I'm not denying he is.

This is why I put Rose ahead of Lebron, though it's mighty close right now. Not a single sportswriter, & many fans for that matter, thought we would be anywhere near this good this year while everyone in the world was crowning Miami champs before they even played a single game together. Rose has carried us thru injuries to Boozer & Noah & made us into a team to beat THIS YEAR. That gives him the edge in my eyes, but if Lebron wins I'm not going to be all up in arms because he is the best player in the league, there's absolutely no denying that.

Lebron has haters in the media...plenty of them, waiting on the next mistake he makes so they can vilify him some more. They victimized Kobe the same way, and he didn't win an MVP...because of the haters. It happens...the award is political to a certain point. That is nothing new.

 

[Shakes]

I love this "Lebron won't win cuz of the haters" like fans get to vote. It's sportswriters voting & even despite all the bad press he got, the majority of writers still kiss his ass & think he's amazing, which I'm not denying he is.

I thought the fans do get to vote for the first time, one of the MVP votes is a fan vote this year isn't it?

And yes, some writers will vote against LeBron because of the way he left, especially from Cleveland and the cities he didn't go to like Chicago and New York.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

We don't know exactly, the impact Rose's absence would have on the Bulls like we do the Mavs without Dirk, so shouldn't that player be Dirk Nowitzki? In a tougher conference? He doesn't have a player nearly as good as Boozer on his team. Nobody is scoring as much as Deng on the Mavs team right now. So, based on your criteria, which your tailored for Rose...you picked the wrong guy. Dirk is the man...

Well, Caron Butler has been out for nearly one month, but in the case of the Mavericks, Shawn Marion and DeShawn Stevenson has been able to step in at the 3 position and keep them steady. It has definitely hurt Dallas, but I don't think it has kept them from winning very many games.

The reason I have Rose over Nowitzki is because without him, they would have had to go with a lineup of:

Watson
Bogans/Brewer (mostly hurt)
Deng/Korver
Gibson
Noah/Asik

to start the season

then for a mere 9 games:

Watson
Bogans/Brewer
Deng/Korver
Boozer/Gibson
Noah/Asik

and then since around mid-December:

Watson
Bogans/Brewer
Deng/Korver
Boozer/Gibson
Thomas/Asik

The Bulls would still be a much improved defensive team (obviously), but we are talking about arguably the worst offensive team in the league (any of these 3 groups of rosters the Bulls would've been using over the course of the season) without Derrick Rose.

At least the Mavericks without Dirk Nowitzki and Caron Butler can still hold it down down defensively because of Tyson Chandler. And they would have:

Kidd/Barea
Terry
Stevenson/Cardinal
Marion (moved up to PF)
Chandler/Haywood

Jason Kidd and Jason Terry can still provide you with a lot of offense. And Shawn Marion is still a capable of playing PF despite being undersized because of his rebounding ability and his ability to score in an up-tempo offense. He and Jason Kidd are very capable of doing that together.

I'll admit... Dirk vs. Rose for MVP takes a some cognitive thought. But I would give it to Rose.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Lebron has haters in the media...plenty of them, waiting on the next mistake he makes so they can vilify him some more. They victimized Kobe the same way, and he didn't win an MVP...because of the haters. It happens...the award is political to a certain point. That is nothing new.

I'll admit that I thought Kobe Bryant may have deserved that award over Steve Nash one of those years at least.

And yeah, the MVP is a very politically-swayed award. That's the main reason why we all should take these awards with more than a grain of salt.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

And also I believe Nowitzki missed 4 or 5 games and the Mavs' lost because of that. You have to throw "missed games" into the equation too because it does hurt your team when you're out. Rose has only missed 1 this season...

 

[pinkizdead]

I'm going to disagree with you. if you take dirk out, terry is a first option, and the second option might be mark cuban? On offense that team is really really bad. did you just say jason kidd provides a lot of offense?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Bad analogy...the MVP now is losing its meaning? Because some people pick Rose over Lebron? Sounds like whining to me...

That's not exactly what I meant. The MVP award loses meaning when Jason Kidd loses the award in 2003 when he deserved it wayyyyy more than anyone. Without him, the Nets would have been pretty damn bad.

And also when things happen like (arguably) Nash winning it over Kobe. Or Malone winning it over Jordan in 1997.

And on top of that, just because you are the MVP doesn't mean you have a team full of winners. The Dallas Mavericks won 67 games in 2007 largely in part of Dirk Nowitzki and were embarassed in 6 games by the Golden State Warriors in the first round of the playoffs. Sure, he deserved the trophy, but his ultimately that meant little-to-nothing.

That's why I question the significance of winning an MVP award.

 

[Shakes]

Assuming the Bulls could keep up the defense without Rose I believe they'd still be above .500. The defense is that good you'd have to be absolutely putrid offensively (worse than the Cavs or Bucks) to not win games.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I'm going to disagree with you. if you take dirk out, terry is a first option, and the second option might be mark cuban? On offense that team is really really bad. did you just say jason kidd provides a lot of offense?

I think that is a pretty decent offensive team in a fast-paced system, which Rick Carlisle would have no other choice but to utilize with Nowitzki out... Kidd can shoot these days unlike when he was a younger player, even 5 years ago. He realized that he wouldn't be getting much money or minutes in the NBA if he didn't step up his shooting, so he practiced and it paid off.

Kidd is still one of the best rebounding guards in the league and despite losing some speed can still get down the court at a decent pace. And is arguably the best passer still in the NBA today. That's offense.

I grant you that, like the Bulls, Dallas' offense would be bad... really bad. But at least they would have had Caron Butler for SOME of that time.

When it's all said and done this season, I may very well change my mind and say Nowitzki deserves the MVP over Rose just because Butler is out for the year.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Assuming the Bulls could keep up the defense without Rose I believe they'd still be above .500. The defense is that good you'd have to be absolutely putrid offensively (worse than the Cavs or Bucks) to not win games.

I don't think they would be at .500 without Rose considering how much time Boozer and Noah have missed. They would be such a bad offensive team...

And a big part of the reason the Bulls' defense is so good is because Rose has improved a LOT in that department this season.

 

[Shakes]

In my opinion Watson is still a better defender than Rose, so I don't think the defense would be worse without Rose. Of course there could be a psychological effect where if you're missing your star player you don't try as hard.

As far as the offense goes, the Bucks are coached by a guy who isn't a good offensive coach, they have a cast of horrible ball stoppers, Jennings and Bogut have both missed time. I don't see how the Bulls would be a worse offensive team than the Bucks, and yet they still have an offensive rating better than the Bulls defensive rating.

Being worth as many as 15 wins is still pretty good for Rose, but I'm guessing both Dirk and LeBron are worth more to their team.

 

[houheffna]

I think that is a pretty decent offensive team in a fast-paced system, which Rick Carlisle would have no other choice but to utilize with Nowitzki out... Kidd can shoot these days unlike when he was a younger player, even 5 years ago. He realized that he wouldn't be getting much money or minutes in the NBA if he didn't step up his shooting, so he practiced and it paid off.

Kidd is still one of the best rebounding guards in the league and despite losing some speed can still get down the court at a decent pace. And is arguably the best passer still in the NBA today. That's offense.

I grant you that, like the Bulls, Dallas' offense would be bad... really bad. But at least they would have had Caron Butler for SOME of that time.

When it's all said and done this season, I may very well change my mind and say Nowitzki deserves the MVP over Rose just because Butler is out for the year.

Caron Butler is a little bit better than Deng. He would not be as important as Boozer or Noah. That was my point. The gulf between the 1st and 2nd guy on the Mavericks has always been wider than the gulf between top guys on the Bulls...Rose has 3 guys who are legit top 10 guys at their position on his team. I don't think that is the case with Dirk...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Caron Butler is a little bit better than Deng. He would not be as important as Boozer or Noah. That was my point. The gulf between the 1st and 2nd guy on the Mavericks has always been wider than the gulf between top guys on the Bulls...Rose has 3 guys who are legit top 10 guys at their position on his team. I don't think that is the case with Dirk...

Well, I don't know. Jason Kidd is still definitely a top 15 PG. Butler (I know) was roughly top 10 somewhere about the same as Deng. Terry is a top 15 SG, and Marion is about a top 20 SF. I think Tyson Chandler is making a good case that he is a top 10 C this season, as well.

Anyway, if the season ended today and LeBron James won the MVP, I wouldn't cry about it. If I had to choose one right now I'd still give Rose the slight edge over he and Nowitzki, but I can't in good consiousness say that LeBron doesn't deserve the award.

I'm really trying not to be biased in the case of Rose, but I do honestly think he should win the award.

 

[pinkizdead]

Well, I don't know. Jason Kidd is still definitely a top 15 PG. Butler (I know) was roughly top 10 somewhere about the same as Deng. Terry is a top 15 SG, and Marion is about a top 20 SF. I think Tyson Chandler is making a good case that he is a top 10 C this season, as well.

Anyway, if the season ended today and LeBron James won the MVP, I wouldn't cry about it. If I had to choose one right now I'd still give Rose the slight edge over he and Nowitzki, but I can't in good consiousness say that LeBron doesn't deserve the award.

I'm really trying not to be biased in the case of Rose, but I do honestly think he should win the award.

i don't think you should count on kidd as a scoring option. he's a streaky 3pt shooter, and his age you shouldn't count on him consistently hitting any offense other than a wide open 3.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

i don't think you should count on kidd as a scoring option. he's a streaky 3pt shooter, and his age you shouldn't count on him consistently hitting any offense other than a wide open 3.

Yeah, there's no doubt about that. I still think he's one of the better point guards because of his passing ability. He's not as fast in transition or on defense anymore, but he is still not getting completely killed yet unless he's going up against a Westbrook or Rose.

 

[pinkizdead]

he really can't guard a pg. he can barely guard a sf in melo. I think they do a great job of hiding kid, rather than kid not getting killed.

If you replace dirk iwth an average pf from around the league you're playing kid chandler/haywood. Those are two guys you really dont have to guard. if you leave kid a lone and dare him to make his jumpers, i'm pretty confident that's good defense. If he's hitting them, you can start guarding ihm. If you're playing an offense where you dont guard 2 starters, it makes hell for the rest of your team on offense.

i'm not saying that the bulls benefit less from the rose than dirk benefits the mavs.. i'm saying the mavs suck without dirk. Really imagine if you replaced derrick rose with kirk hinrich. you still have a pretty decent team. If oyu replace dirk with your average pf, i'm not sure you cold say the same.

 

[Glide2keva]

Look, let's just all agree that hou is right.

 

[drose4life]

I agree. Never thought Lebron would win another MVP teaming up with Wade and Bosh (too much star power) but I was wrong...

 

[clonetrooper264]

he really can't guard a pg. he can barely guard a sf in melo. I think they do a great job of hiding kid, rather than kid not getting killed.

If you replace dirk iwth an average pf from around the league you're playing kid chandler/haywood. Those are two guys you really dont have to guard. if you leave kid a lone and dare him to make his jumpers, i'm pretty confident that's good defense. If he's hitting them, you can start guarding ihm. If you're playing an offense where you dont guard 2 starters, it makes hell for the rest of your team on offense.

i'm not saying that the bulls benefit less from the rose than dirk benefits the mavs.. i'm saying the mavs suck without dirk. Really imagine if you replaced derrick rose with kirk hinrich. you still have a pretty decent team. If oyu replace dirk with your average pf, i'm not sure you cold say the same.

Chandler has been playing really well on offense this year. I saw him making jumpers and stuff, and he's shooting a career high from the free throw line. I'd say he's making himself into an offensive threat outside of the dunk and alley oop, both of which you'd have to guard against with him anyway, so he is an offensive threat. Haywood on the other hand, does not really need to be guarded since he can't really hurt you at all offensively, so you're right on that.