One Man's Take on Recent High Dollar Free Agents

[mountsalami]

I like Vizcaino a fair bit myself. We haven't had an arm as live as his in the system for the better part of a decade now. Huge question marks are attached to that live arm, and that is why the Cubs got him for Maholm.

I kind of thought that you might be trolling with the comment, but just a topic I like to talk about at this point.

Vizcaino hasn't proven a thing yet except arm troubles. He had arm troubles prior to his surgery. The report on him has always been durability and arm soreness issues.

We may find out if he's worth a shit, if he ever gets to pitch in the ML ever again.

 

[dabynsky]

Vizcaino hasn't proven a thing yet except arm troubles. He had arm troubles prior to his surgery. The report on him has always been durability and arm soreness issues.

We may find out if he's worth a shit, if he ever gets to pitch in the ML ever again.

What did I say he proved? I said he has electric stuff, term I believe used was most live arm in a decade. Going by scouting reports and what I've watched from him is the basis for those statements. I fully conceded the arm issues because that is why the Braves were willing to trade someone with that quality of stuff for Paul Maholm. T

 

[mountsalami]

What did I say he proved? I said he has electric stuff, term I believe used was most live arm in a decade. Going by scouting reports and what I've watched from him is the basis for those statements. I fully conceded the arm issues because that is why the Braves were willing to trade someone with that quality of stuff for Paul Maholm. T

Where did I say that you said he proved anything ?

I was simply stating a FACT that he has proved NOTHING to this point. His "electric stuff" is a 94 mph fastball that he can't seem to throw for a week or two without arm soreness. If he was so great the Yankees would have kept him and the Braves organization, being these great judges of talent, would have kept him also.

But I guess Boy Blunder being the humane society for injured and displaced players knows more than they do.

 

[dabynsky]

Where did I say that you said he proved anything ?

I was simply stating a FACT that he has proved NOTHING to this point. His "electric stuff" is a 94 mph fastball that he can't seem to throw for a week or two without arm soreness. If he was so great the Yankees would have kept him and the Braves organization, being these great judges of talent, would have kept him also.

But I guess Boy Blunder being the humane society for injured and displaced players knows more than they do.

And a pretty damn good curveball to go with the mid 90s heat. Yes he could be Angel Guzman redux, but he has the best stuff of anyone within a couple of years of making the majors. Again if there was no questions about his health you don't get a guy with that stuff within a year or two of making the majors for a guy like Paul Maholm.

 

[KBisBack!]

I like Vizcaino a fair bit myself. We haven't had an arm as live as his in the system for the better part of a decade now.

Andrew Cashner says hello.

 

[mountsalami]

And a pretty damn good curveball to go with the mid 90s heat. Yes he could be Angel Guzman redux, but he has the best stuff of anyone within a couple of years of making the majors. Again if there was no questions about his health you don't get a guy with that stuff within a year or two of making the majors for a guy like Paul Maholm.

I happened to watch one of the Braves games when Hemmoroidys pitched out of the bullpen. Mind you he didn't pitch much at all in the majors,. It was clearly happenstance on my part. I didn't see anything from him that resembled something that rarely comes along.

The media has touted him. Even his minor league numbers are not very impressive.

But fair enough.

Have it your way.

 

[dabynsky]

Andrew Cashner says hello.

Indeed he does. Cashner has better gas than Vizcaino, but I like what I've seen of Vizcaino's breaking ball. The fact that the list of guys with similar stuff is one is still pretty damning of the system.

 

[KBisBack!]

Indeed he does. Cashner has better gas than Vizcaino, but I like what I've seen of Vizcaino's breaking ball. The fact that the list of guys with similar stuff is one is still pretty damning of the system.

That wasn't a complete list.

Cashner has shown, when healthy, he can be an effective major league pitcher.

Vizcaino has yet to show he can stay healthy or be an effective major league pitcher.

I would say Shark has a more electric arm, I would say Juan Cruz's arm was just as electric and was much 'higher ranked', Angel Guzman was just as touted a prospect, Chris Archer despite not yet sticking in the majors was a 'higher ranked' prospect when he was traded than Vizcaino has ever been.

It has been far from as barren as people wish to believe.

Cruz was a Top 10 prospect in all of baseball.
Guzman was like a top 25 prospect.
Archer was around a top 20 prospect when he was traded.

 

[dabynsky]

That wasn't a complete list.

Cashner has shown, when healthy, he can be an effective major league pitcher.

Vizcaino has yet to show he can stay healthy or be an effective major league pitcher.

I would say Shark has a more electric arm, I would say Juan Cruz's arm was just as electric and was much 'higher ranked', Angel Guzman was just as touted a prospect, Chris Archer despite not yet sticking in the majors was a 'higher ranked' prospect when he was traded than Vizcaino has ever been.

It has been far from as barren as people wish to believe.

Cruz was a Top 10 prospect in all of baseball.
Guzman was like a top 25 prospect.
Archer was around a top 20 prospect when he was traded.

Cruz was last ranked as a prospect in 2002 because he had gained enough service time to no longer qualify by the end of that year. Guzman would be at the very beginning of the period, but sure I'll give it you. Samardzija I would debate because his stuff has dramatically improved at the big league level compared to what he was in the minors. He could always throw hard, but it really wasn't until three years ago in the majors that he became anything more than a guy that threw hard.

My point is that I miss the days of Juan Cruz when the Cubs seemed to have an endless supply of guys that threw mid 90s heat with wicked breaking stuff. Now we seem to have one of those guys in the system at the time at best.

 

[KBisBack!]

Cruz was last ranked as a prospect in 2002 because he had gained enough service time to no longer qualify by the end of that year.

So you are going to split hairs because it was 11 years instead of 10?? Really??

Samardzija I would debate because his stuff has dramatically improved at the big league level compared to what he was in the minors. He could always throw hard, but it really wasn't until three years ago in the majors that he became anything more than a guy that threw hard.

So it doesn't count because Samardzija developed his more electric arm at the major league level instead of the minors??

Huh?

My point is that I miss the days of Juan Cruz when the Cubs seemed to have an endless supply of guys that threw mid 90s heat with wicked breaking stuff. Now we seem to have one of those guys in the system at the time at best.

Name one team that has had an endless supply of guys that threw mid 90s heat with wicked breaking stuff for a decade straight??? LOL!!!

That is one of the fallacies of the prospect worshippers. They don't seem to grasp the reality of the situation that it is nearly impossible to have a never ending supply of top prospects. It just doesn't work that way.

The farm systems are usually very cyclical. You have good periods and you will have bad periods.

But sadly people have been conned into believing the never ending supply of top prospects is realistic.

 

[dabynsky]

So you are going to split hairs because it was 11 years instead of 10?? Really??

You want to debate me on what I said, and I choose the period very careful to avoid Juan Cruz. I will admit to forgetting that Chris Archer briefly passed through our system, and should have been more careful about how Angel Guzman's status as a prospect lasted.

So it doesn't count because Samardzija developed his more electric arm at the major league level instead of the minors??

Huh?

The point I was raising about Vizcaino's stuff compared to other arms in the system, but fine claim him as well even though since my god I wouldn't want to split hairs with you.

Name one team that has had an endless supply of guys that threw mid 90s heat with wicked breaking stuff for a decade straight??? LOL!!!

That is one of the fallacies of the prospect worshippers. They don't seem to grasp the reality of the situation that it is nearly impossible to have a never ended supply of top prospects. It just doesn't work that way.

The farm systems are usually very cyclical. You have good periods and you will have bad periods.

But sadly people have been conned into believing the never ending supply of top prospects is realistic.

Decade straight. None come to mind, but that doesn't negate there was a steep drop off compared to what the system produced for a good five year stretch in terms of arms. Granted that was a philosophical approach by the franchise at the time, and the cycle was probably more noticeable due to all those developed arms breaking and flaming out. That said we have been at a low point in the cycle for far longer than the high point we had. I don't think it is wrong to point that out. Vizcaino is a welcome addition to a critical need area. Hyperbole to say livest arm in the past decade, perhaps, but there is a case to be made for Vizcaino's stuff. And the hyperbole comes from the distance between him and what else is around.

 

[KBisBack!]

You want to debate me on what I said, and I choose the period very careful to avoid Juan Cruz. I will admit to forgetting that Chris Archer briefly passed through our system, and should have been more careful about how Angel Guzman's status as a prospect lasted.

If we are looking at the big picture of what the franchise had in it's system, there really is no difference between 10 and 11 years no matter how carefully you chose the period.

The point I was raising about Vizcaino's stuff compared to other arms in the system, but fine claim him as well even though since my god I wouldn't want to split hairs with you.

I count the major league team as the most important part of the system.

What Samardzija is doing for the Cubs in the majors is worth 10 prospects.

A point that seems to be overlooked by most with the PR campaign about building up the farm.

Decade straight. None come to mind, but that doesn't negate there was a steep drop off compared to what the system produced for a good five year stretch in terms of arms. Granted that was a philosophical approach by the franchise at the time, and the cycle was probably more noticeable due to all those developed arms breaking and flaming out.

And it is no different then what a lot of clubs go through, just few people pay enough attention around the league to other teams so they have the perception that it is only the Cubs that are somehow underperforming.

The Royals a couple years ago were the #1 ranked minor league system. Now they are #18 and if it wasn't for the trade that landed Shields that top ranked system will have produced very little at the major league level. The system was loaded with promising arms like Mike Montgomery, John Lamb, Danny Duffy, Chris Dwyer and Noel Arguelles all being ranked on BA's Top 100 list. The results so far at the major league level are 26 starts and a 5.28 ERA, all by Danny Duffy who is still recovering from Tommy John surgery.

That said we have been at a low point in the cycle for far longer than the high point we had. I don't think it is wrong to point that out.

Never said it was wrong.

I am simply pointing out that for most teams the 'low points' in the cycle last far longer than the high points. It is the nature of the beast and the facts that the odds are low of players developing into All Stars or even above average major league players.

And the hyperbole comes from the distance between him and what else is around.

Well if the Cubs had actually drafted the best player last year instead of the cheaper route there wouldn't be that distance nor any hyperbole needed.

 

[Willrust]

Name one team that has had an endless supply of guys that threw mid 90s heat with wicked breaking stuff for a decade straight??? LOL!!!

The Braves. Tom Glavine, Steve Avery, Jason Schmidt, Mark Wohlers, Tommy Hanson, Kris Medlen, Craig Kimbrel, Julio Teheran & Vizcaino. This also doesn't take into account the pitchers that they have traded away including Adam Wainright, Matt Harrison, Neftali Feliz, Jason Marquis, & JJ Hoover.

If I am going to take a chance on a highly touted pitching prospect from any team, it would be the Braves.

 

[Willrust]

I count the major league team as the most important part of the system.

What Samardzija is doing for the Cubs in the majors is worth 10 prospects.

As apposed to proven major league players like David DeJesus and Darwin Barney being worth any prospects from the KC Royals.

 

[Willrust]

http://memegenerator.net/instance/37662169

 

[KBisBack!]

Name one team that has had an endless supply of guys that threw mid 90s heat with wicked breaking stuff for a decade straight??? LOL!!!

The Braves. Tom Glavine, Steve Avery, Jason Schmidt, Mark Wohlers, Tommy Hanson, Kris Medlen, Craig Kimbrel, Julio Teheran & Vizcaino. This also doesn't take into account the pitchers that they have traded away including Adam Wainright, Matt Harrison, Neftali Feliz, Jason Marquis, & JJ Hoover.

If I am going to take a chance on a highly touted pitching prospect from any team, it would be the Braves.

Glavine came up in 87 and had his first full season in 88.

So your list came up with about 6 pitchers who have been above average major leaguers over a 25 year period. Not quite what a reasonable person would think is an endless supply.

 

[KBisBack!]

I count the major league team as the most important part of the system.

What Samardzija is doing for the Cubs in the majors is worth 10 prospects.

As apposed to proven major league players like David DeJesus and Darwin Barney being worth any prospects from the KC Royals.

Why am I not surprised that you would be dumb enough to believe that DeJesus and Barney are providing as much production as Samardzija.

Shark appears to be developing into a legitimate #2 big league starter. DeJesus and Barney are scrubs who were explained to you in great detail and accuracy on how they do not improve the Royals despite your idiotic ramblings and even dumber trade ideas.

 

[Willrust]

Here was your criteria:

Name one team that has had an endless supply of guys that threw mid 90s heat with wicked breaking stuff for a decade straight??? LOL!!!

I gave you a list from the Braves that stretched out over 20 years!!!

Glavine came up in 87 and had his first full season in 88.

So your list came up with about 6 pitchers who have been above average major leaguers over a 25 year period. Not quite what a reasonable person would think is an endless supply.

Glavine & Smoltz are legitimate HOF's. Avery, Schmidt, Wohlers, Wainright, Marquis, Harrison, Feliz, Kimbrel, Jurrjens, Venters & Millwood were all; All Stars!!! Not, like the Royals "All Stars" that are only there because there has to be a representative from their team, but all were legitimate All Stars when they went!! 13 All Stars Pitchers through the same system from 1988 to 2011.

Lets see what an Atlanta Brave thinks of your post there:

:andruw:

 

[Willrust]

Why am I not surprised that you would be dumb enough to believe that DeJesus and Barney are providing as much production as Samardzija.

Shark appears to be developing into a legitimate #2 big league starter. DeJesus and Barney are scrubs who were explained to you in great detail and accuracy on how they do not improve the Royals despite your idiotic ramblings and even dumber trade ideas.

If Jeff Samardzija is worth 10 prospects, shouldn't 2 proven major leaguers be worth 3 prospects?

Sure is easy to knock someone for actually posting a trade idea. Go ahead Mr. Wizard, knock our socks off with a trade proposal of your own.

:nervous:

 

[dabynsky]

If we are looking at the big picture of what the franchise had in it's system, there really is no difference between 10 and 11 years no matter how carefully you chose the period.

This about sums up any conversation we have had at this point. I specifically choose my words to avoid including a particular player but that doesn't matter. If I had specifically said since Juan Cruz would that have mattered?

I count the major league team as the most important part of the system.

What Samardzija is doing for the Cubs in the majors is worth 10 prospects.

A point that seems to be overlooked by most with the PR campaign about building up the farm.






And it is no different then what a lot of clubs go through, just few people pay enough attention around the league to other teams so they have the perception that it is only the Cubs that are somehow underperforming.

The Royals a couple years ago were the #1 ranked minor league system. Now they are #18 and if it wasn't for the trade that landed Shields that top ranked system will have produced very little at the major league level. The system was loaded with promising arms like Mike Montgomery, John Lamb, Danny Duffy, Chris Dwyer and Noel Arguelles all being ranked on BA's Top 100 list. The results so far at the major league level are 26 starts and a 5.28 ERA, all by Danny Duffy who is still recovering from Tommy John surgery.



Never said it was wrong.

I am simply pointing out that for most teams the 'low points' in the cycle last far longer than the high points. It is the nature of the beast and the facts that the odds are low of players developing into All Stars or even above average major league players.




Well if the Cubs had actually drafted the best player last year instead of the cheaper route there wouldn't be that distance nor any hyperbole needed.

As with most of these debates time is going to be the ultimate answer.