OT: CWebb´s Top 5 PG

[RamiTheBullsFan]

UIUC represent BOI. :woot:

Imo Paul doesn't have superb 3pt range, but the 3s he takes are smart ones for the most part and he's a good enough shooter to knock those down consistently. Paul also has this uncanny ability to hit clutch 3s which certainly doesn't hurt his percentages. Williams takes more difficult 3s (and I believe more 3s in general) and thus misses more. They're only like 1% apart percentage wise. Maybe I am biased, but when I think of 3pt shooters at the PG position, Williams comes to mind before Paul.

I agree and that's why I put them as interchangeable in regard to shooting three's. Williams shoots 4% worse but takes a LOT more three's which inherently helps his scoring efficiency. And to be able to make a high percentage of shots for the amount he takes is great.

I still think Paul is the better overall player because he is more fundamentally sound at defending and passing/penetrating at the PG position.

 

[Uman85]

1. It was a joke on my part as clearly shown by the lack-of vowels.
2. My opinions are based on observation unlike certain people in hear who just try to troll the board.
3. Name one statement I've made more "idiotic" than calling Lin the best PG in the world. And I'd like a direct quote on that as well. Plsntku

waldo's not a troll. I understand taking the tone you did with trolls and I support that, but waldo's a good dude. He was making a joke and we both know that. Just pointing it out.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

waldo's not a troll. I understand taking the tone you did with trolls and I support that, but waldo's a good dude. He was making a joke and we both know that. Just pointing it out.

The troll part wasn't referring to Waldo. I was mainly asking if he was "srs"

 

[clonetrooper264]

I agree and that's why I put them as interchangeable in regard to shooting three's. Williams shoots 4% worse but takes a LOT more three's which inherently helps his scoring efficiency. And to be able to make a high percentage of shots for the amount he takes is great.

I still think Paul is the better overall player because he is more fundamentally sound at defending and passing/penetrating at the PG position.

That's a fair statement. I'd agree that Paul is the better overall player. Numbers wise and skills wise. Though, looking at that list again, I think it's interesting that you put them both at 1 with Nash in terms of 3pt shooting. In terms of pure shooting, isn't Nash far above both of them? Nash, iirc, is a career 40+% shooter from 3. Though granted he might not shoot as much as Williams, but his volume is probably on the same level as Paul's or maybe even a little higher. Imo it'd be Nash at 1 and Williams and Paul as 2a 2b.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

That's a fair statement. I'd agree that Paul is the better overall player. Numbers wise and skills wise. Though, looking at that list again, I think it's interesting that you put them both at 1 with Nash in terms of 3pt shooting. In terms of pure shooting, isn't Nash far above both of them? Nash, iirc, is a career 40+% shooter from 3. Though granted he might not shoot as much as Williams, but his volume is probably on the same level as Paul's or maybe even a little higher. Imo it'd be Nash at 1 and Williams and Paul as 2a 2b.

Nash is definitely the most trust-worthy three-point shooter but the percentages are so close that I figured it would be most fair to say that Paul, Williams, and Nash are 1a-c.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Nash is definitely the most trust-worthy three-point shooter but the percentages are so close that I figured it would be most fair to say that Paul, Williams, and Nash are 1a-c.

Steve Nash career 3pt%: 42.9%
Chris Paul career 3pt%: 36.5%
Deron Williams career 3pt%: 35.5%

Nash is a more than 6% better than CP3. CP3 and Williams are definitely close, but Nash is a league above these guys. I guess if you look at just this season (small sample size) I could see putting CP3 closer to Nash's level since he's shooting 42% or so and Nash is shooting around 40%, but Nash has been consistently over 40% for a long time. Paul has done it twice including this season. Williams has done it once (twice if you round up 39.5 one season). Numbers favor Nash, no?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Steve Nash career 3pt%: 42.9%
Chris Paul career 3pt%: 36.5%
Deron Williams career 3pt%: 35.5%

Nash is a more than 6% better than CP3. CP3 and Williams are definitely close, but Nash is a league above these guys. I guess if you look at just this season (small sample size) I could see putting CP3 closer to Nash's level since he's shooting 42% or so and Nash is shooting around 40%, but Nash has been consistently over 40% for a long time. Paul has done it twice including this season. Williams has done it once (twice if you round up 39.5 one season). Numbers favor Nash, no?

Chris Paul has improved immensely since his first two seasons though. And the reason I put D-Will in the three-point shooting class of Nash is because of the high volume of shots he puts up. He may not be quite the wide open shooter Nash is but he still is more efficient because he puts up a LOT of trey-attempts.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Chris Paul has improved immensely since his first two seasons though. And the reason I put D-Will in the three-point shooting class of Nash is because of the high volume of shots he puts up. He may not be quite the wide open shooter Nash is but he still is more efficient because he puts up a LOT of trey-attempts.

Totally agree on CP3, but imo he's still not on the same level just yet. I'm not sold on Williams being more efficient just because he puts up more 3s. All percentages point to Nash being more efficient. Take TS% for example. Nash has about 61% TS%. Williams has 55% and Paul is about 57%. Even if you don't like TS% (idr who does and who doesn't) just think about it. Williams shoots more shots at a lower percentage and Nash shoots less shots at a much higher percentage. Sure Williams scores more, but who's more efficient?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Totally agree on CP3, but imo he's still not on the same level just yet. I'm not sold on Williams being more efficient just because he puts up more 3s. All percentages point to Nash being more efficient. Take TS% for example. Nash has about 61% TS%. Williams has 55% and Paul is about 57%. Even if you don't like TS% (idr who does and who doesn't) just think about it. Williams shoots more shots at a lower percentage and Nash shoots less shots at a much higher percentage. Sure Williams scores more, but who's more efficient?

Isn't TS% pretty much irrelevant to the 3-pt% conversation though? In terms of shooting wide open three's, I like Nash somewhat more than CP3 and D-Will but I think that D-Will can get his shot over most defenders even when contested which gives him a bonus for me.

Nash vs. Paul (this season):
About the same number of 3 attempts and about the same number of makes. That's why I put them on the same level.

Paul vs. Williams (the past few seasons):
Paul shots a clearly better percentage but I think Williams is just about as good of a shooter as Paul and draws just as much defensive attention. The biggest difference is Williams seems to be able to let it fly more often and is a definitely more willing shooter than Paul. That's why I put them on the same level.

Williams vs. Nash (in general):
Nash is the better open shooter but Williams is also high up there in percentage and is more able to get his shot off over defenders. So same level to me.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Sure Williams scores more, but who's more efficient?

Shooting 33% from three is the same as shooting 50% from two.

Which do I like more in terms of scoring efficiency- a guy who shoots few three attempts at 40+% or a guy who shoots a LOT of three's at 36%.

^I like the 36% guy better.

 

[Dementia]

So Rondo has a good game and all of a sudden he's the second best PG in the league? Right well I won't be on this bandwagon. I still think he's a scrub.

If you look at it like you are picking a team, in which order would you pick them.

I'd take Rose, Paul, Williams, Parker, Nash and Westbrook all before I would pick Rondo.

I'll say Rondo is the 7th best PG in the NBA then

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I'll say Rondo is the 7th best PG in the NBA then

Offensively, he is definitely not as good as the others. Defensively, he is better. So that helps his case.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Isn't TS% pretty much irrelevant to the 3-pt% conversation though? In terms of shooting wide open three's, I like Nash somewhat more than CP3 and D-Will but I think that D-Will can get his shot over most defenders even when contested which gives him a bonus for me.

Nash vs. Paul (this season):
About the same number of 3 attempts and about the same number of makes. That's why I put them on the same level.

Paul vs. Williams (the past few seasons):
Paul shots a clearly better percentage but I think Williams is just about as good of a shooter as Paul and draws just as much defensive attention. The biggest difference is Williams seems to be able to let it fly more often and is a definitely more willing shooter than Paul. That's why I put them on the same level.

Williams vs. Nash (in general):
Nash is the better open shooter but Williams is also high up there in percentage and is more able to get his shot off over defenders. So same level to me.

You brought up efficiency which is why I brought up TS% (which measures efficiency quite well in most cases imo).

Again, I agree on Paul for this season, but not for the whole of the past few seasons (not even necessarily their careers). Paul seems to be on the rise with his shooting, but Nash has been consistently over 40% for his career which is why I still put Nash above Paul.

Regarding Paul and Williams, I can see where you're coming from. Williams has no fear when shooting and he's a very high volume 3pt shooter. Imo that makes him a better shooter than Paul, but I can see both sides for this one so I won't argue too much for that assessment.

Regarding Williams and Nash...perhaps Nash just takes better shots and so his percentage is much higher as a result. Williams takes a lot of 3s and puts up some bad ones probably and so his percentage is lower. I think Nash can get his shot up against most defenders too. It's all a matter of opinion here I guess.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Shooting 33% from three is the same as shooting 50% from two.

Which do I like more in terms of scoring efficiency- a guy who shoots few three attempts at 40+% or a guy who shoots a LOT of three's at 36%.

^I like the 36% guy better.

Except for their careers Nash and Williams are very similar in terms of 3s made and attempted. Nash actually has the edge in 3s made I believe.

 

[Dementia]

Offensively, he is definitely not as good as the others. Defensively, he is better. So that helps his case.

Absolutely, I get that. But I just can't make myself put a player in a Top 5 discussion if he can't even shoot the ball. He is great defensively and he's also a great passer. But I would still take those other 6 guys for my team before I'd pick Rondo.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

If I told you that

Player A: 100% FT shooter, 44% two-pt shooter, 45% three-pt shooter

could be a more efficient scorer than

100% FT shooter, 44% two-pt shooter, 50% three-pt shooter

would you believe me?

Player A:
8/8 FT's
8/18 two's
5/11 three's

Player B:
8/8 FT's
8/18 two's
2/4 three's

Player A:
33 possessions attempting points

Player B:
26 possessions attempting points

Efficiency:
Player A: 1.18 pts per-poss. in which player attempted points
Player B: 1.15 pts per-poss. in which player attempted points

So it actually takes Player A less possessions (in possessions where each player attempts points) to score the same amount of points as Player B despite the fact that Player B has just as high/higher percentages across the board.

 

[clonetrooper264]

That's great, except the player A scored more points because he took 7 more shots. Percentage wise, if player B took the same amount of shots as player A he would score the same or more points than player A.

The issue is though, Nash shoots better than Williams in every aspect. Nash shoots about 50% from the field, 40% from 3, and over 90% at the line. Williams is about 45, 36, and 85 respectively. So it's not just Nash being a better shooter, he's just a more efficient player than Williams.

Player A takes 3.6 3s a game and makes 1.3 a game on average.
Player B takes 3.3 3s a game and makes 1.4 on average.

Guess who wins?

Even looking at this season where Williams is jacking up 6.4 3s a game. He's making 2.3 a game. Great. Nash is only shooting 2.7 a game and making 1.1. Williams shoots 3.7 3s more and only makes 1.2 more a game. If Nash shot 6.4 3s a game, he'd make 2.6 a game. Volume does not equate to better efficiency.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

That's great, except the player A scored more points because he took 7 more shots. Percentage wise, if player B took the same amount of shots as player A he would score the same or more points than player A.

It's about the balance between three's and two's. It's much more valuable to have a player who shoots a high volume of three's at a high percentage than a guy who shoots a lot less three's at a somewhat higher percentage.

The issue is though, Nash shoots better than Williams in every aspect. Nash shoots about 50% from the field, 40% from 3, and over 90% at the line. Williams is about 45, 36, and 85 respectively. So it's not just Nash being a better shooter, he's just a more efficient player than Williams.

Nash is more efficient than Williams because he is shooting 55+% at two's and is a better FT shooter. However, Williams' efficiency is helped by his HIGH number of FT attempts and 3PT attempts at a decent percentage. Nash has a better three-point percentage but he doesn't utilize it by shooting anywhere close to as much as Williams. And Nash is incapable of getting to the line like Williams therefore he cannot get as many easy points at the line as Williams does.

Player A takes 3.6 3s a game and makes 1.3 a game on average.
Player B takes 3.3 3s a game and makes 1.4 on average.

Guess who wins?

Even looking at this season where Williams is jacking up 6.4 3s a game. He's making 2.3 a game. Great. Nash is only shooting 2.7 a game and making 1.1. Williams shoots 3.7 3s more and only makes 1.2 more a game. If Nash shot 6.4 3s a game, he'd make 2.6 a game. Volume does not equate to better efficiency.

If Nash could get away with shooting as many three's as Williams, it would hit his passing game. And he can't shoot as many of them anyway without his 3PT% dropping because then defenses would adjust and contest more of the shots he takes.

Tyson Chandler wouldn't shoot 70% from the field if he was taking as many shots per-game as Kobe either.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Nash and Williams are like apples and oranges in terms of their offense. Nash is a pass first, second, third, and fourth type of PG. Williams is more of a scorer. This is why Nash has been averaging over 10 assists per game for the past 6 years or something. He doesn't shoot nearly as much as Williams because that's just not who he is. However he has shown he is capable to as a scorer, maybe not in the same magnitude as Williams, but he still averaged 18 ppg in his prime. On top of that, you look at the years where he took a lot of 3s (relative to himself) which is over 4 a game, he was still hitting at a higher rate than Williams. In the years where Williams took 4.9 3s a game (the past 3 years I believe) he was making less than Nash both numbers wise and percentage wise. So actually, Nash has gotten away with shooting almost as many 3s as Williams, made more (2007-08 was his best year shooting where he made 47% of his 3s on 4.7 attempts per game) at a higher percentage, AND still averaged double digit assists per game. And yes, Williams is a lot better than Nash at drawing fouls. Nash scores most of his points on jumpers, Williams drives a lot more and of course that results in more FTAs. Williams having his efficiency helped by shooting more free throws doesn't mean he's more efficient than Nash. Tell me with a straight face that if Nash shot 6, 7, 8, 9 FTAs a game that he still wouldn't shoot 90+%. Dude's right up there with Ray Allen in terms of being automatic at the line.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

D-WILL:
5.2 / 6 (FT's) (5.2 pts per 3 possessions)
5.0 /11.2 (two's) (10 pts per 11.2 possessions)
2.4 /6.6 (three's) (7.2 pts per 6.6 possessions)

(20.8 total possessions)

22.4 PPG


NASH:
1.9 / 2.2 (1.9 per 0.73)
4.3 / 7.3 (8.6 per 7.3)
1.1 / 2.7 (3.3 per 2.7)

(10.73 possessions total)

13.8 PPG


Nash: 1.28 per scoring attempt poss
Williams: 1.07 per scoring attempt poss

Nash is more efficient than Williams in terms of scoring but Williams still brings more in terms of scoring. If Nash's role on his team was the same as Williams' is now then he would not be as efficient of a scorer. But Williams job is option A while Nash's is option B. Williams has about 10 more possessions than Nash does every game attempting to score so he obviously demands more defensive attention than Nash in terms of the defense expecting a player to score.