OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicing

[J-Mart]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

??? ?????? wrote:

Yeah, you're just waiting for Pujols to get slammed now. The guy is just so good that you have to impagine that he is...he will go down as one of the best players in baseball history if he never gets caught, putting up these numbers in the steroid era.

Speaking of someone never busted for homeruns....

I think it's really unfair to Sammy for him to get thrown in with the roiders when there has never been any type of proof that he may have done them.

The corked bat thing, obviously looks bad, but why would a guy feel the need to cork a bat if he was roiding up?

He was just good at hiding it and covered his bases.

 

[dougthonus]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

I think it's really unfair to Sammy for him to get thrown in with the roiders when there has never been any type of proof that he may have done them.

The corked bat thing, obviously looks bad, but why would a guy feel the need to cork a bat if he was roiding up?

Are you serious? YOu think think there is doubt about Sosa? He was definitely juicing.

I don't understand how people still love baseball so much despite all the cheating going on. I'm surprised its still more popular than basketball, but I guess i'm looking at it from a biased viewpoint.

I think your mistake is that you don't figure every basketball, football, and soccer player worldwide isn't doing the same thing. Steroids are probably a major problem in every sport everywhere in the world where big money is at stake. Baseball is just doing more testing then anyone else and is at the middle of the publicity for it.

Guys get busted in football all the time too, but it's never as big a deal. Those NFL guys are definitely all on something.

 

[Rerisen]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

dougthonus wrote:

I think your mistake is that you don't figure every basketball, football, and soccer player worldwide isn't doing the same thing. Steroids are probably a major problem in every sport everywhere in the world where big money is at stake.

LeBron juicing Y/N?

There has been some debate about how much steroids would help an NBA player. But of course, not all performance enhancing drugs blow you up like the incredible hulk.

I don't, and probably won't believe it about the NBA till there is proof. Maybe I am naive , in the same way I thought baseball fans were dumb for thinking Canseco, or Caminiti, and each player that came out one by one, were the only ones doing it. When probably as many as half the league or more were on something.

But it would just be a shame if a player like LeBron were to start challenging M.J by means of an unfair advantage.

 

[dougthonus]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

LeBron juicing Y/N?

If the answer is no, then he has some kind of body irregularity that gave him an unnaturally large amount of human growth hormone. If you look at him, he has all the symptoms of someone who uses HGH becuase his face was really prematurely aged (similar to Oden's face) where they looked like they're in their mid 30s in their 20s.

There has been some debate about how much steroids would help an NBA player. But of course, not all performance enhancing drugs blow you up like the incredible hulk.

I don't think there's any debate. Strength definitely helps NBA players, and the fact that it speeds your workout recovery time helps you no matter what you are doing.

I don't, and probably won't believe it about the NBA till there is proof. Maybe I am dumb, in the same way I thought baseball fans were dumb for thinking Canseco, Caminiti and each player that came out one by one, were the only ones doing it. When probably as many as half the league or more were on something.

Well we all have our own opinions on it. It may not be as prevalent in the NBA as in MLB or the NFL, but it's definitely there IMO.

But it would just be a shame if a player like LeBron were to start challenging M.J by means of an unfair advantage.

Probably be a shame then. You look at a guy like LeBron who is clearly unnaturally built physique wise for his age, and I think there's an awfully high probability that he's on HGH at the very least.

 

[Rerisen]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

It's interesting to think about. Has to be Stern's worst nightmare too. A big steroid scandal might be one of the things that could topple him.

Though I wonder how much of a outcry there would even be if one broke in the NBA. It's not "America's pastime" where records are held as sacred as the game itself. And there wouldn't be some obvious metric to measure their effect either, like with Home Run balls flying out of parks off of broken bats and half swings and shattering the record books.

 

[dougthonus]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

Rerisen wrote:

It's interesting to think about. Has to be Stern's worst nightmare too. A big steroid scandal might be one of the things that could topple him.

Though I wonder how much of a outcry there would even be if one broke in the NBA. It's not "America's pastime" where records are held as sacred as the game itself. And there wouldn't be some obvious metric to measure their effect either, like with Home Run balls flying out of parks off of broken bats and half swings and shattering the record books.

There's not a real outcry in football even though it obviously goes on, so I doubt the outcry would be that large in the NBA either. I really don't understand why the outcry is that large in baseball.

Personally, I like Jeff Passan's latest column about it in yahoo sports. If you want to clean up the game, lifetime ban on your first offense. Take blood samples from players and tell them that if they are back tested positive with steroids that they will be banned as well, so future tests may uncover them even if they aren't available right now.

Once you are banned for life if found guilty it will remove the financial incentive, because you won't be able to make a living anymore. Whereas now, it's just worth it for people to take steroids. They're getting 20 million per year for putting up monster numbers, so even if they get caught, if they make it to the big deal first who cares? It's embarrassing, but I'll take some lifetime embarrassment and 80-100 million over a career of relative anonymity and 5-10 million.

 

[ryguy24]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

dougthonus wrote:

I think it's really unfair to Sammy for him to get thrown in with the roiders when there has never been any type of proof that he may have done them.

The corked bat thing, obviously looks bad, but why would a guy feel the need to cork a bat if he was roiding up?

Are you serious? YOu think think there is doubt about Sosa? He was definitely juicing.

Take this for example:

Eight of those top 17 home run hitters played in what is commonly referred to as The Steroid Era. And six of those eight modern-day sluggers have been associated with performance-enhancing drugs: Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/05/07/manny/index.html?eref=T1

I guess my Cubs fan bias is showing, but why does Sosa have to be included on a list with those players? There was NO actual evidence whatsoever as opposed to everyone else on that list. It just seems like he gets lumped in there with all the known users without thinking twice. I'm not denying he may have taken things, but I just think that there should be some sort of legit evidence outside of "being a good baseball player" before people non nonchalantly throw his name into the group of actual known users.

 

[dougthonus]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

I guess my Cubs fan bias is showing, but why does Sosa have to be included on a list with those players? There was NO actual evidence whatsoever as opposed to everyone else on that list. It just seems like he gets lumped in there with all the known users without thinking twice. I'm not denying he may have taken things, but I just think that there should be some sort of legit evidence outside of "being a good baseball player" before people non nonchalantly throw his name into the group of actual known users.

I'm shocked that anyone could possibly believe Sosa was clean.

The guy retired when they started testing, and pretended he couldn't speak English before congress.

 

[ryguy24]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

dougthonus wrote:

I guess my Cubs fan bias is showing, but why does Sosa have to be included on a list with those players? There was NO actual evidence whatsoever as opposed to everyone else on that list. It just seems like he gets lumped in there with all the known users without thinking twice. I'm not denying he may have taken things, but I just think that there should be some sort of legit evidence outside of "being a good baseball player" before people non nonchalantly throw his name into the group of actual known users.

I'm shocked that anyone could possibly believe Sosa was clean.

The guy retired when they started testing, and pretended he couldn't speak English before congress.

 

[ryguy24]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

dougthonus wrote:

I guess my Cubs fan bias is showing, but why does Sosa have to be included on a list with those players? There was NO actual evidence whatsoever as opposed to everyone else on that list. It just seems like he gets lumped in there with all the known users without thinking twice. I'm not denying he may have taken things, but I just think that there should be some sort of legit evidence outside of "being a good baseball player" before people non nonchalantly throw his name into the group of actual known users.

I'm shocked that anyone could possibly believe Sosa was clean.

The guy retired when they started testing, and pretended he couldn't speak English before congress.

And they started testing in 03, and made it even stricter in 05. Sosa played until he was 38 (07 season) and hit 21 homers and drove in 92 that year with a OPS+ still over 100. As far as Congress, everyone knows that Sammy used a bunch of slang whenever he talked, talked quickly, and was sometimes hard to understand (berry berry good, etc.). He was advised to have someone up there who could speak clear English, so that's what he did. He never said he couldn't speak English, in fact he made it clear that he could.

Still if it sounds like i'm saying I think he was 100% clean i'm not, I admit that there is a good chance he took something illegal. But I just think there should be some sort of actual evidence before people nonchalantly put his name with people who have factually done steroids. I mean the guy wasn't even referenced to once in the Mitchell Report concerning anything with Roids.

 

[dougthonus]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

My point is that you saying "he may have taken things" is very different from my stance of "there's no way on this earth he didn't take things".

You seem open to the possibility one way or the other while I am convicting him without conclusive proof. I can understand anyone's hesitancy in convicting someone without proof, but this is a "public opinion" conviction not a legal one. The court of public opinion can frequently be wrong of course.

 

[Newskoolbulls]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

I bet A-rod is very happy today, it takes the media off him for a little bit.

 

[??? ??????]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

J-Mart wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

Yeah, you're just waiting for Pujols to get slammed now. The guy is just so good that you have to impagine that he is...he will go down as one of the best players in baseball history if he never gets caught, putting up these numbers in the steroid era.

Speaking of someone never busted for homeruns....

I think it's really unfair to Sammy for him to get thrown in with the roiders when there has never been any type of proof that he may have done them.

The corked bat thing, obviously looks bad, but why would a guy feel the need to cork a bat if he was roiding up?

He was just good at hiding it and covered his bases.

So you want us to believe that Sammy Sosa was some super genius who could get away hiding steroid use while no one else could?

There is only one mention of Sosa in the Mitchell Report

During the course of this investigation, we interviewed a number of coaches, club
personnel, former teammates, and other persons who know McGwire. Only Canseco, who
repeated the allegations from his memoir, said he had knowledge of McGwire’s alleged use of
steroids. Through his personal lawyer, I asked McGwire to meet with me for an interview about
these issues, but he declined to do so. I then sent his lawyer a list of specific questions about
whether McGwire had ever used steroids or other performance enhancing substances without a
prescription during his major league career, in the hope that McGwire would be willing to
provide a response outside of the context of an interview. Neither McGwire nor his lawyer
responded to that letter. (I sent similar letters with specific questions to lawyers for Barry Bonds,
Rafael Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa, and Gary Sheffield, none of whom provided answers to my
questions either.)

Sosa burned some bridges on his way out of Chicago. I'm sure some jealous teammate would have made an allegation for the Mitchell Report.

I don't think it's all too hard to believe Sosa didn't take steroids. He never got super huge like guys like McGwire or Bonds, he was more built like a top notch NBA athlete. He had a similar career arch to that of an NBA player in terms of rise, prime, and fall.

The guy is also #2 in career strike outs. Sammy was just a player who kept on swinging hard, trying to hit every pitch out of the park.

 

[Newskoolbulls]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

??? ?????? wrote:

J-Mart wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

Yeah, you're just waiting for Pujols to get slammed now. The guy is just so good that you have to impagine that he is...he will go down as one of the best players in baseball history if he never gets caught, putting up these numbers in the steroid era.

Speaking of someone never busted for homeruns....

I think it's really unfair to Sammy for him to get thrown in with the roiders when there has never been any type of proof that he may have done them.

The corked bat thing, obviously looks bad, but why would a guy feel the need to cork a bat if he was roiding up?

He was just good at hiding it and covered his bases.

So you want us to believe that Sammy Sosa was some super genius who could get away hiding steroid use while no one else could?

There is only one mention of Sosa in the Mitchell Report

During the course of this investigation, we interviewed a number of coaches, club
personnel, former teammates, and other persons who know McGwire. Only Canseco, who
repeated the allegations from his memoir, said he had knowledge of McGwire’s alleged use of
steroids. Through his personal lawyer, I asked McGwire to meet with me for an interview about
these issues, but he declined to do so. I then sent his lawyer a list of specific questions about
whether McGwire had ever used steroids or other performance enhancing substances without a
prescription during his major league career, in the hope that McGwire would be willing to
provide a response outside of the context of an interview. Neither McGwire nor his lawyer
responded to that letter. (I sent similar letters with specific questions to lawyers for Barry Bonds,
Rafael Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa, and Gary Sheffield, none of whom provided answers to my
questions either.)

Sosa burned some bridges on his way out of Chicago. I'm sure some jealous teammate would have made an allegation for the Mitchell Report.

I don't think it's all too hard to believe Sosa didn't take steroids. He never got super huge like guys like McGwire or Bonds, he was more built like a top notch NBA athlete. He had a similar career arch to that of an NBA player in terms of rise, prime, and fall.

The guy is also #2 in career strike outs. Sammy was just a player who kept on swinging hard, trying to hit every pitch out of the park.

Did you ever see Sosa with the Sox? he was a twig. Players like Mark, Sammy, Jose were never good players so it was odd to see them hitting all these home runs.

 

[dougthonus]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

Sosa burned some bridges on his way out of Chicago. I'm sure some jealous teammate would have made an allegation for the Mitchell Report.

The mitchell report was basically based on talking to 2 guys who gave up anyone if I'm not mistaken. I'm not a 'steroids case' expert or anything, but my impression was it was basically made up almost exclusively from testimony of some dude who worked for the Mets and then the guy who rolled over on Clemons.

 

[Newskoolbulls]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

dougthonus wrote:

Sosa burned some bridges on his way out of Chicago. I'm sure some jealous teammate would have made an allegation for the Mitchell Report.

The mitchell report was basically based on talking to 2 guys who gave up anyone if I'm not mistaken. I'm not a 'steroids case' expert or anything, but my impression was it was basically made up almost exclusively from testimony of some dude who worked for the Mets and then the guy who rolled over on Clemons.

I met that guy, he seemed like he felt bad for what he did but its not like he went to players to deal they all came to him.

 

[??? ??????]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

Newskoolbulls wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

J-Mart wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

Yeah, you're just waiting for Pujols to get slammed now. The guy is just so good that you have to impagine that he is...he will go down as one of the best players in baseball history if he never gets caught, putting up these numbers in the steroid era.

Speaking of someone never busted for homeruns....

I think it's really unfair to Sammy for him to get thrown in with the roiders when there has never been any type of proof that he may have done them.

The corked bat thing, obviously looks bad, but why would a guy feel the need to cork a bat if he was roiding up?

He was just good at hiding it and covered his bases.

So you want us to believe that Sammy Sosa was some super genius who could get away hiding steroid use while no one else could?

There is only one mention of Sosa in the Mitchell Report

During the course of this investigation, we interviewed a number of coaches, club
personnel, former teammates, and other persons who know McGwire. Only Canseco, who
repeated the allegations from his memoir, said he had knowledge of McGwire’s alleged use of
steroids. Through his personal lawyer, I asked McGwire to meet with me for an interview about
these issues, but he declined to do so. I then sent his lawyer a list of specific questions about
whether McGwire had ever used steroids or other performance enhancing substances without a
prescription during his major league career, in the hope that McGwire would be willing to
provide a response outside of the context of an interview. Neither McGwire nor his lawyer
responded to that letter. (I sent similar letters with specific questions to lawyers for Barry Bonds,
Rafael Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa, and Gary Sheffield, none of whom provided answers to my
questions either.)

Sosa burned some bridges on his way out of Chicago. I'm sure some jealous teammate would have made an allegation for the Mitchell Report.

I don't think it's all too hard to believe Sosa didn't take steroids. He never got super huge like guys like McGwire or Bonds, he was more built like a top notch NBA athlete. He had a similar career arch to that of an NBA player in terms of rise, prime, and fall.

The guy is also #2 in career strike outs. Sammy was just a player who kept on swinging hard, trying to hit every pitch out of the park.

Did you ever see Sosa with the Sox? he was a twig. Players like Mark, Sammy, Jose were never good players so it was odd to see them hitting all these home runs.

There was also 6 years between Sosa playing for the White Sox and the Cubs. If I dropped everything I was doing, dubbed myself as a professional athlete, started training year round, doing intense workouts, and having the money to buy the proper food, I am confident I could get to Sammy's size. 6 years is plenty of time to go from twig to a strong guy.

Just check this out:

He naturally put on a lot of muscle as his career went on.

Comparably, Sammy Sosa.

The first photo is from 1989, the second from 1998.

 

[Dpauley23]

Re:OT: Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games for juicin

How the hell is everybody defending Sosa? There is nothing on his reputation that will allow you to give him the benefit of the doubt. Did anybody watch the Congress hearings? God know I how Fred feels when these idiot drones say Gordon is black hole and such