Passing the Torch

[houheffna]

michael jordan has 5 MVPs
kobe has 1

jordan's career ppg is 30.1(not counting wizards stint its more like 32)
kobe's is 25.3

jordan has 6 rings, two three peats taking a baseball hiatus in between...if he hadnt i'd honestly think jordan would have 7 or 8 rings
kobe has 5(may change)

jordan has a higher PER

jordan's FG% is consistently much higher, jordan always was the better slasher not so much the better shooter...kobe has a better outside touch

jordan was a better rebounder(not that really means much)

jordan has his countless legendary moments(the flu game,the shot,etc.)

jordan played in era with the likes of hakeem,shaq in his prime,barkley,magic johnson, and many other greats and in also a much more physical era

Kobe is a good defender dont get me wrong, but Jordan was on another level defensively, guy was one of the best guard defenders ever

tbh, the player that closest resembles jordan to me is not kobe, although some of the bases of their game are very similar, but actually dwyane wade because of their scoring approach as prime attackers rather than falling more towards the outside shot.

Jordan was not a better rebounder or defender than Kobe, nor was the era better than it is now, that is simply not true.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_WNTx3gG_s]YouTube - Phil Jackson compares Jordan and Kobe (2008)[/ame]

Notice Phil never said Kobe was better, neither did I, but Phil is not afraid to compare...neither am I...

 

[houheffna]

kobe is a career 33% shooter. Is that really shooting better? the seasons that jordan tried to shoot from outside, he did it better than kobe.

If you watched them both throughout their careers, you know Kobe is a better long range shooter.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Jordan was not a better rebounder or defender than Kobe, nor was the era better than it is now, that is simply not true.

YouTube - Phil Jackson compares Jordan and Kobe (2008)

Notice Phil never said Kobe was better, neither did I, but Phil is not afraid to compare...neither am I...

Take everything Phil says with a grain of salt. He's not going to rub salt into Kobe's wounds by saying MJ is the GOAT. That would be idiotic of him.

 

[houheffna]

Take everything Phil says with a grain of salt. He's not going to rub salt into Kobe's wounds by saying MJ is the GOAT. That would be idiotic of him.

How about I take what YOU say with a grain of salt because you are a Bulls fan? Calling Jordan the greatest would not rub salt anywhere because its the truth!!!! I think the greatest coach of all time can give a sound objective analysis on those two players without bias. You? Maybe not so much, nor would I expect it from a Lakers fan.

I have been a fan for almost 25 years, I grew up idolizing Jordan and I hated Kobe for wanting to be Jordan. At this point, I admire Kobe's accomplishment of coming awfully close to Jordan and even bettering him in certain areas of the game. Yet and still, Jordan is the greatest. I think some of you are afraid to make an earnest comparison. People who coached them do, people who played against both of them do...

And how is he rubbing salt if Kobe has already stated that Jordan was the better player?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

How about I take what YOU say with a grain of salt because you are a Bulls fan? Calling Jordan the greatest would not rub salt anywhere because its the truth!!!! I think the greatest coach of all time can give a sound objective analysis on those two players without bias. You? Maybe not so much, nor would I expect it from a Lakers fan.

I have been a fan for almost 25 years, I grew up idolizing Jordan and I hated Kobe for wanting to be Jordan. At this point, I admire Kobe's accomplishment of coming awfully close to Jordan and even bettering him in certain areas of the game. Yet and still, Jordan is the greatest. I think some of you are afraid to make an earnest comparison. People who coached them do, people who played against both of them do...

And how is he rubbing salt if Kobe has already stated that Jordan was the better player?

Because it's different when it's your coach who says it.

 

[pinkizdead]

i'm pretty sure i can take both of them. i'm 5'8 and 170lbs of pure basketball domination.

 

[houheffna]

Because it's different when it's your coach who says it.

You gotta do better than that man...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

You gotta do better than that man...

You have to go better than what you have said...

1) Bryant was not as good of a rebounder as Jordan

2) Bryant was not as good of a defender as Jordan.

I don't know where you are coming from with that.

 

[houheffna]

You have to go better than what you have said...

1) Bryant was not as good of a rebounder as Jordan

2) Bryant was not as good of a defender as Jordan.

I don't know where you are coming from with that.

Ha! I watched them play, that is where I am coming from with that. To act as if Jordan was so far superior to Kobe in fundamental parts of the game is erroneous and nothing more than "homerism".

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Ha! I watched them play, that is where I am coming from with that. To act as if Jordan was so far superior to Kobe in fundamental parts of the game is erroneous and nothing more than "homerism".

You are pulling stuff out of the air. Jordan was much stronger than Kobe Bryant in both his upper and lower body.

You talk about what Phil Jackson has to say... Phil Jackson said that the main difference between Jordan and Bryant was their hands. Jordan's hands were ridiculously huge. He averaged 8 rebounds per game one year and could toy with all sorts of pump fakes with the basketball in one hand- palmed. Jordan is a MUCH better rebounder than Bryant. I don't care about that 16 rebound game against the Celtics last year... the C's were a HORRIBLE rebounding team. That's the whole reason why the Lakers won and Kobe has his 2nd Finals' MVP award and not Pierce or Rondo.

As for defense... that's absolutely absurd to compared Jordan to Kobe on defense. Jordan could actually defend the interior. Bryant couldn't even DREAM of doing that. Jordan was a much, much better help defender. That's Kobe's strength on defense as well. As for man-to-man defense... it isn't even a question. Jordan could lock you down. Kobe Bryant is one of the better guys in the league at playing on-ball D but nowhere near as well as Jordan could. Jordan was much stronger and more reliable at contesting every shot by his opponent. I understand the hand-checking rules weren't in-place then... but not even Kobe Bryant would agree with you if you said he was the better defender than Jordan.

As for offense, it's a flat out joke to compare Kobe to Jordan. Kobe Bryant is much less aggressive than Jordan when it comes to scoring - yet, he is not nearly as efficient from the field. Despite the defensive 3 second rule and hand-checking rules being in-place since around 1997 or '98? Kobe just cannot take over like Jordan could. His back-to-the-basket game is amazing. But Jordan's was that much better. He could get you with a fade in or away from 0-20 feet away from the rim. Jordan had MUCH better passing skills than Kobe did. Jordan was much better finisher around the rim (much, much better).

Jordan was simply flat out better. Kobe Bryant does not even come close.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

It has zero to do with homerism.

 

[David Jay]

I think that we are comparing apples to oranges....Jordan played in a much different era as Kobe........Whereas the more physical play was accepted back then, the NBA has adopted a finesse style of play that compliments Kobe's style of basketball. Can you imagine Kobe playing in the day of the Detroit "Bad Boys" and when hard fouls were accepted and considered the norm?.......I'm sure someone would have come out with "The Kobe Rules" as they did with Jordan to somehow stunt his production.....I will never take anything form Kobe as no one can take anything from Jordan, but we are witnessing two great players in two totally different styles and eras of the NBA that cannot be truly comapred......

 

[Adog06]

Jordan was not a better rebounder or defender than Kobe, nor was the era better than it is now, that is simply not true.

YouTube - Phil Jackson compares Jordan and Kobe (2008)

Notice Phil never said Kobe was better, neither did I, but Phil is not afraid to compare...neither am I...

Jordan was not a better defender?? Jordan won the Defensive MVP. Kobe never did. I think that explains who is a better defender.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

There simply is no comparison. I can say that without bias.

Do you know who had better basketball skills than both Kobe and Michael? Allen Iverson. Was he better? No. That has shit-all to do with anything.

Kobe Bryant was an amazing player back in his day. Today? Still is pretty good but nowhere near what he was around 2005-2007 during his peak.

But was Bryant greater than Jordan is any facet of the game besides pure long-range shooting (barely)?
No.

(PS- there have been plenty of otherwise crappy pro. basketball players who were much better 3-point shooters than both of these guys.)

Jordan is DOMINANT over Bryant in terms of his all-around inside game, AND in terms of his defense.

Top 2 shooting guards of all-time:

1) Michael Jordan, Chi./Was.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
2) Kobe Bryant, LAL
3-etc) the field

Case closed.

 

[houheffna]

Jordan was not a better defender?? Jordan won the Defensive MVP. Kobe never did. I think that explains who is a better defender.

Actually it doesn't. Pippen may have been the greatest wing defender ever and he never won the award either.

 

[houheffna]

There simply is no comparison. I can say that without bias.

Do you know who had better basketball skills than both Kobe and Michael? Allen Iverson. Was he better? No. That has shit-all to do with anything.

Kobe Bryant was an amazing player back in his day. Today? Still is pretty good but nowhere near what he was around 2005-2007 during his peak.

But was Bryant greater than Jordan is any facet of the game besides pure long-range shooting (barely)?
No.

(PS- there have been plenty of otherwise crappy pro. basketball players who were much better 3-point shooters than both of these guys.)

Jordan is DOMINANT over Bryant in terms of his all-around inside game, AND in terms of his defense.

Top 2 shooting guards of all-time:

1) Michael Jordan, Chi./Was.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
2) Kobe Bryant, LAL
3-etc) the field

Case closed.

I don't know what the heck that list means...lol. The case was closed when people like Phil Jackson and Tex Winter stated that the two players had a lot in common on the basketball court. Jordan was not a much more dominant player than Kobe....most of his career, Pippen guarded the other team's best wing player.

Again, Phil Jackson saying that Kobe is "the more skilled player" makes your argument rather weak as well as others who don't want to accept the truth.

By the way, Kobe was so sound a fundamental defender that its nearly impossible for another player to be dominant over him in that category. Same with Kobe's post game, which is Jordanesque also. Saying Jordan was a better rebounder is weak too. We are comparing guards not centers.

I am not afraid to analyze players and say for example that the wing players in this era are superior to the wings in the 1990's. I also have said that Jordan is not the most talented player in league history. The guy playing in Miami is. So if Jordan is not the most talented, why is it hard for people to accept that certain areas of the game like long distance shooting and ball handling can be an advantage for Kobe over Jordan?

People who say there is no comparison are afraid to compare, plain and simple.

 

[Crystallas]

Remember the time when Kobe hit that last second shot to win the NCAA title game?
Well, if you were to young to witness the 82 tourney, and follow the rest thereafter. I can see how using stats may be your only option to provide something to a Jordan vs Kobe debate. I'm not pointing fingers, but I know as soon as this gets quoted, I'll know exactly who feels offended.

 

[houheffna]

You are pulling stuff out of the air. Jordan was much stronger than Kobe Bryant in both his upper and lower body.

You talk about what Phil Jackson has to say... Phil Jackson said that the main difference between Jordan and Bryant was their hands. Jordan's hands were ridiculously huge. He averaged 8 rebounds per game one year and could toy with all sorts of pump fakes with the basketball in one hand- palmed. Jordan is a MUCH better rebounder than Bryant. I don't care about that 16 rebound game against the Celtics last year... the C's were a HORRIBLE rebounding team. That's the whole reason why the Lakers won and Kobe has his 2nd Finals' MVP award and not Pierce or Rondo.

As for defense... that's absolutely absurd to compared Jordan to Kobe on defense. Jordan could actually defend the interior. Bryant couldn't even DREAM of doing that. Jordan was a much, much better help defender. That's Kobe's strength on defense as well. As for man-to-man defense... it isn't even a question. Jordan could lock you down. Kobe Bryant is one of the better guys in the league at playing on-ball D but nowhere near as well as Jordan could. Jordan was much stronger and more reliable at contesting every shot by his opponent. I understand the hand-checking rules weren't in-place then... but not even Kobe Bryant would agree with you if you said he was the better defender than Jordan.

As for offense, it's a flat out joke to compare Kobe to Jordan. Kobe Bryant is much less aggressive than Jordan when it comes to scoring - yet, he is not nearly as efficient from the field. Despite the defensive 3 second rule and hand-checking rules being in-place since around 1997 or '98? Kobe just cannot take over like Jordan could. His back-to-the-basket game is amazing. But Jordan's was that much better. He could get you with a fade in or away from 0-20 feet away from the rim. Jordan had MUCH better passing skills than Kobe did. Jordan was much better finisher around the rim (much, much better).

Jordan was simply flat out better. Kobe Bryant does not even come close.

Kobe is much less aggressive when it comes to scoring? Kobe had what 4 50-pt games in a row? Give me a break man! What have you been watching over the last 15 years?

You have totally destroyed the effectiveness of the word "much" in this one argument, you have rendered the word ineffective.

Strength is not a skill...Phil said Kobe was more skilled and Jordan was stronger and the more gifted athlete physically.

Nice of you to pull out certain parts of Jackson's argument (Jordan is stronger!) to support your argument while ignoring the premise of the argument all together. Of course you would probably say Jordan was MUCH stronger...and yes, Kobe is arguably a top 5 player. Claims like that shows the fear people have in comparing the two. You try to distance Kobe as far as you can from Jordan to avoid making the comparison. It just won't work.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I don't know what the heck that list means...lol. The case was closed when people like Phil Jackson and Tex Winter stated that the two players had a lot in common on the basketball court. Jordan was not a much more dominant player than Kobe....most of his career, Pippen guarded the other team's best wing player.

Same thing with Kobe Bryant. He nearly always guarded the Bruce Bowen's and Jim Jackson's of the NBA. Almost never would Phil have him guard the other team's best perimeter player.

Again, Phil Jackson saying that Kobe is "the more skilled player" makes your argument rather weak as well as others who don't want to accept the truth.

Nate Robinson
Salim Stoudamire
Pete Maravich
Spud Webb
Calvin Murphy
Allen Iverson
Rod Strickland

You can make a case that all of these players are way more skilled than Kobe or Jordan. Using the word "skilled" as a general sumnupsis is weak on your part.

By the way, Kobe was so sound a fundamental defender that its nearly impossible for another player to be dominant over him in that category. Same with Kobe's post game, which is Jordanesque also. Saying Jordan was a better rebounder is weak too. We are comparing guards not centers.

I'm not the one who original brought up rebounding. You claim that you watched these players but maybe you needed some glasses...? Jordan is the superior rebounder easily. Bryant is not 'equal' to him as you claimed before.

Jordan was a better defender than Kobe Bryant because he slept less often on defense. He could read the defense better and could balance between being a guy who would average 1.5+ blocks & 3 steals and between shutting down his man whom he was assigned to guard. If we are comparing the defense here... I don't even know what to tell you. Jordan would get in your head and throw you off of your game. He was stronger and you could not shoot over him. Kobe seemed slower to react to opposing offenses than Jordan was.

I am not afraid to analyze players and say for example that the wing players in this era are superior to the wings in the 1990's. I also have said that Jordan is not the most talented player in league history. The guy playing in Miami is. So if Jordan is not the most talented, why is it hard for people to accept that certain areas of the game like long distance shooting and ball handling can be an advantage for Kobe over Jordan?

People who say there is no comparison are afraid to compare, plain and simple.

I'm not one of the people saying that there is no possible way a player could dream of being better than Jordan. LeBron could be if he worked on his game and focus. But I doubt that will ever happen.

You aren't making any real mind-boogling comparison. You are comparing one player (Kobe Bryant) to another player (Michael Jordan) that has a clear edge over him in every measurable category across-the-board besides pure long-range shooting.

Forget MVPs and Finals MVPs and titles. Go look at how Jordan finished around the rim and how Jordan passed the ball. Go look at both these players' field goal shooting percentages.

Comparing Kobe to Jordan is not much different than it would be in comparing Wade or James or Drexler or Gervin to Jordan. None of those guys are on his level as a dominant player on a night-in-night-out basis. Talent? Skill? Yes, they are on his level. But none even come close as a player.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Kobe is much less aggressive when it comes to scoring? Kobe had what 4 50-pt games in a row? Give me a break man! What have you been watching over the last 15 years?

You have totally destroyed the effectiveness of the word "much" in this one argument, you have rendered the word ineffective.

Since the time that Kobe has actually started winning titles, he has given up the ball and depended on Gasol, Odom, Bynum, and 3 point shooters to share. When he was putting up those 50 point games, he had Odom, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton... He had no other choice except to dominate the ball. 'nuff said.

Strength is not a skill...Phil said Kobe was more skilled and Jordan was stronger and the more gifted athlete physically.

And my point is, and has been, find me an NBA player who isn't supremely talented or skilled other than a filler defensive dope of a 7-footer (i.e. Shawn Bradley, Greg Ostertag). Skill doesn't make you great in itself. Jordan had the skill, the body, and what seperated him from the pack was his mental fortitude. Nobody was more intimidating to play against than Jordan, and it showed on the court.

Nice of you to pull out certain parts of Jackson's argument (Jordan is stronger!) to support your argument while ignoring the premise of the argument all together. Of course you would probably say Jordan was MUCH stronger...and yes, Kobe is arguably a top 5 player. Claims like that shows the fear people have in comparing the two. You try to distance Kobe as far as you can from Jordan to avoid making the comparison. It just won't work.

There is no fear involved. Kobe is not/was never as good as Michael was as a player. He had mental toughness but he was never as driven to be the best as Jordan was. Jordan took pride in embarrassing people in a way that I haven't seen out of Kobe Bryant. Jordan's hands were "billion dollar hands" as Phil put it. He could fool defenders at ease with them. He had the body over Kobe. What is Kobe honestly more "skilled" at than Jordan? If you say a crossover, that is the one thing that I can say maybe Bryant has the edge. But, then again, he is playing against collapsed defenses because of the rule changes. Other than pure handles and long-distance shooting, Jordan has the complete upperhand over him. C'mon.