Passing the Torch

houheffna

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Since the time that Kobe has actually started winning titles, he has given up the ball and depended on Gasol, Odom, Bynum, and 3 point shooters to share. When he was putting up those 50 point games, he had Odom, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton... He had no other choice except to dominate the ball. 'nuff said.



And my point is, and has been, find me an NBA player who isn't supremely talented or skilled other than a filler defensive dope of a 7-footer (i.e. Shawn Bradley, Greg Ostertag). Skill doesn't make you great in itself. Jordan had the skill, the body, and what seperated him from the pack was his mental fortitude. Nobody was more intimidating to play against than Jordan, and it showed on the court.



There is no fear involved. Kobe is not/was never as good as Michael was as a player. He had mental toughness but he was never as driven to be the best as Jordan was. Jordan took pride in embarrassing people in a way that I haven't seen out of Kobe Bryant. Jordan's hands were "billion dollar hands" as Phil put it. He could fool defenders at ease with them. He had the body over Kobe. What is Kobe honestly more "skilled" at than Jordan? If you say a crossover, that is the one thing that I can say maybe Bryant has the edge. But, then again, he is playing against collapsed defenses because of the rule changes. Other than pure handles and long-distance shooting, Jordan has the complete upperhand over him. C'mon.

Crossover? You mean BALLHANDLING? Again, you use Phil's argument up to a point. The fact is Jordan and Kobe are comparable because Kobe wanted it that way. He patterned his game after Jordan and came very close, so close that Phil Jackson compared the two. You NEVER brought up Jordan's hands until you heard that clip, you NEVER brought up Jordan's strength until that clip. And as I stated time and time again, when asked if Kobe was a more skilled player the answer was "yes". That failed to compute with you so you make an asinine argument denigrating basketball skills....which is pretty damn silly if you ask me.
 

houheffna

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Same thing with Kobe Bryant. He nearly always guarded the Bruce Bowen's and Jim Jackson's of the NBA. Almost never would Phil have him guard the other team's best perimeter player.



Nate Robinson
Salim Stoudamire
Pete Maravich
Spud Webb
Calvin Murphy
Allen Iverson
Rod Strickland

You can make a case that all of these players are way more skilled than Kobe or Jordan. Using the word "skilled" as a general sumnupsis is weak on your part.



I'm not the one who original brought up rebounding. You claim that you watched these players but maybe you needed some glasses...? Jordan is the superior rebounder easily. Bryant is not 'equal' to him as you claimed before.

Jordan was a better defender than Kobe Bryant because he slept less often on defense. He could read the defense better and could balance between being a guy who would average 1.5+ blocks & 3 steals and between shutting down his man whom he was assigned to guard. If we are comparing the defense here... I don't even know what to tell you. Jordan would get in your head and throw you off of your game. He was stronger and you could not shoot over him. Kobe seemed slower to react to opposing offenses than Jordan was.



I'm not one of the people saying that there is no possible way a player could dream of being better than Jordan. LeBron could be if he worked on his game and focus. But I doubt that will ever happen.

You aren't making any real mind-boogling comparison. You are comparing one player (Kobe Bryant) to another player (Michael Jordan) that has a clear edge over him in every measurable category across-the-board besides pure long-range shooting.

Forget MVPs and Finals MVPs and titles. Go look at how Jordan finished around the rim and how Jordan passed the ball. Go look at both these players' field goal shooting percentages.

Comparing Kobe to Jordan is not much different than it would be in comparing Wade or James or Drexler or Gervin to Jordan. None of those guys are on his level as a dominant player on a night-in-night-out basis. Talent? Skill? Yes, they are on his level. But none even come close as a player.

You can make the argument that Calvin Murphy and Salim Stoudamire are "way more skilled than Jordan or Kobe"? At What???

That is the dumbest s--- I have read by anyone making an argument in this matter. Maybe there is a clear edge statistically. Which again would support the argument that Wilt Chamberlain was the greatest ever. However, people who know basketball can judge a player's abilities based on what they know about the game and what they see. To watch both players and use a word like comparable is not far-fetched. Again, people with a higher basketball IQ than you or I have made the comparison, some in favor of Kobe, which renders your "not even close" argument rather inaccurate.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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If you tell me that because Mark Jackson believes that Bryant>Jordan means that it might be true... I'll laugh. And I doubt that he actually believes that. I honestly have not heard anyone legit make the statement 'kobe>MJ' other than him.
 

houheffna

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If you tell me that because Mark Jackson believes that Bryant>Jordan means that it might be true... I'll laugh. And I doubt that he actually believes that. I honestly have not heard anyone legit make the statement 'kobe>MJ' other than him.

That is because you don't pay attention...people started saying it 5 years ago. Credible journalists compared the two, but it was demanded that they build solid, well thought out opinions not just make the statements. I ask the same from people like you...hell, I can make a better argument against my position and for your position than you can. And no, Salim Stoudamire would never come up in the conversation because that would be really silly.

Mark Jackson thinks he is better and said it in front of Scottie Pippen on national television. I may disagree, but I applaud him for saying what he feels....and why would he not believe what he said? There is a better chance that you don't believe your argument than saying that is the case concerning Jackson...
 

Marty Baby

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Hou was wanting to know if there was anything Jordan did Kobe can't do.

There is, actually.

Jordan won 10 scoring titles including 7 in a row. Kobe...his entire career...2.

You could count on Jordan a lot more during the season - with the exception of one injury year and if you count his half year when he returned from retirement (one injury year with Washington when he was 39) Jordan gave you every drop. Played 80 or more games most his years.

Kobe liked to take some nights off - 4 seasons of 68 games played or less. Kobe hasn't shown to be a consistent 80+ game a season kind of guy. Jordan didn't coast and do just enough to get by in the regular season and THEN play hard once the payoffs started.

Something else Jordan did that Kobe has yet to do is win 5 MVP's. It's hard to be the greatest of all time or even AS good as the greatest of all time when you only have one measly MVP that was given to you for lifetime achievement. That's Chris Paul's MVP and everyone knows it. Ridiculous.
 

houheffna

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Hou was wanting to know if there was anything Jordan did Kobe can't do.

There is, actually.

Jordan won 10 scoring titles including 7 in a row. Kobe...his entire career...2.

You could count on Jordan a lot more during the season - with the exception of one injury year and if you count his half year when he returned from retirement (one injury year with Washington when he was 39) Jordan gave you every drop. Played 80 or more games most his years.

Kobe liked to take some nights off - 4 seasons of 68 games played or less. Kobe hasn't shown to be a consistent 80+ game a season kind of guy. Jordan didn't coast and do just enough to get by in the regular season and THEN play hard once the payoffs started.

Something else Jordan did that Kobe has yet to do is win 5 MVP's. It's hard to be the greatest of all time or even AS good as the greatest of all time when you only have one measly MVP that was given to you for lifetime achievement. That's Chris Paul's MVP and everyone knows it. Ridiculous.

OKay....you are Frank Breakfaststyleham...gotta be, or you are on the same damn boat with him. Because you started the thread making an argument based on very little reasoning, and contradict your own argument with even more ignorance! I have given counterpoints to all you have just said...
 

houheffna

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The era was better because athletes actually played as a team back then unlike now where its 1 player trying to beat the defense on his own.

As far as Kobe being a better rebounder and defender than Jordan, that is laughable. I love Kobe, think he's awesome, but that suggestion is just downright laughable.

The era was not better because the era was severely watered down! The 90's had teams added through expansion...and International stars were not coming in droves back then as they have in the last decade or so. I am not a fan of expansion. I saw what it did in the 90's, and though the league is not as diluted of talent as it was in the 1990's, I still favor contraction even today. That's just me, but I was much more in favor of it in the 90's than I am now.
 

Marty Baby

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Uh, first off, not Frank Breakfaststyleham...name is Marty...

Second off, I started off on the Kobe bandwagon you're driving pedal to the metal, but the rebuttals of all these other fine posters swayed me very much.

Hou, if you look at the stats it doesn't make sense. What you're suggesting.

Kobe is a great, great player - i would say he's in the top 12 greatest ever.

But to say he's just as good as a guy with 5 MVP's, 10 scoring titles, and who won 6 titles having NEVER lost a finals, is absurd and you need to rethink your position.

OKay....you are Frank Breakfaststyleham...gotta be, or you are on the same damn boat with him. Because you started the thread making an argument based on very little reasoning, and contradict your own argument with even more ignorance! I have given counterpoints to all you have just said...
 

houheffna

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Uh, first off, not Frank Breakfaststyleham...name is Marty...

Second off, I started off on the Kobe bandwagon you're driving pedal to the metal, but the rebuttals of all these other fine posters swayed me very much.

Hou, if you look at the stats it doesn't make sense. What you're suggesting.

Kobe is a great, great player - i would say he's in the top 12 greatest ever.

But to say he's just as good as a guy with 5 MVP's, 10 scoring titles, and who won 6 titles having NEVER lost a finals, is absurd and you need to rethink your position.

The other posters didn't say s--- worth swaying anybody, because nobody said Kobe was better but you!!!!! Neither did anyone come up with a concrete answer to my question, and you decided (a few days later) to give the same answers already given?

As if you didn't know he had won 5 MVPs and 6 titles before you made that dumb ass argument...give me a damn break man...
 

Anytime23

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This thread is ridic. Theres no argument.
 

Marty Baby

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Obviously, I've struck a nerve here. I'm sorry if I angered or upset you or hurt your feelings in any way. I really wasn't trying to hurt anyone's feelings. You appear to be a fairly sensitive guy so again, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings or maybe even made you cry there I am deeply sorry.

The swaying I referred to was what some of the others were saying in support of Jordan being better than Kobe. I saw a reel of highlights on Sports Center and I drank the Kool Aid on Kobe too soon. Once I heard what some of the others were saying and I saw a reel of Jordan playing it wasn't even a comparison.

No one I know of, including me, is dismissing Kobe as a great PLAYER - but it's pretty clear we cannot say Kobe is just as good as Jordan.

On a scale of 1-10, Jordan was a 10, Kobe's a...I've got Kobe as an 8.5. He's up there pretty high but he isn't a perfect 10.

Alright?

The other posters didn't say s--- worth swaying anybody, because nobody said Kobe was better but you!!!!! Neither did anyone come up with a concrete answer to my question, and you decided (a few days later) to give the same answers already given?

As if you didn't know he had won 5 MVPs and 6 titles before you made that dumb ass argument...give me a damn break man...
 
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houheffna

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Obviously, I've struck a nerve here. I'm sorry if I angered or upset you or hurt your feelings in any way. I really wasn't trying to hurt anyone's feelings. You appear to be a fairly sensitive guy so again, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings or maybe even made you cry there I am deeply sorry.

The swaying I referred to was what some of the others were saying in support of Jordan being better than Kobe. I saw a reel of highlights on Sports Center and I drank the Kool Aid on Kobe too soon. Once I heard what some of the others were saying and I saw a reel of Jordan playing it wasn't even a comparison.

No one I know of, including me, is dismissing Kobe as a great PLAYER - but it's pretty clear we cannot say Kobe is just as good as Jordan.

On a scale of 1-10, Jordan was a 10, Kobe's a...I've got Kobe as an 8.5. He's up there pretty high but he isn't a perfect 10.

Alright?

WTF? My feelings are not hurt brother. You are the one who practically threatened me a week or two ago when I dared to say something negative about Jordan. If anyone is overly sensitive in this situation its you.

My point was MVPs and titles shouldn't be the gauge as to whether Kobe is better, worse than or as good as Jordan because its unfair. That is not how Jordan was measured to greats who preceded him. People WATCHED him. From your having to watch "reels" to come to your conclusion, you must be unfamiliar with Jordan. I watched damn near every game he played from 1988-1998...I know how great he was as a player, the reels are etched in my mind. That said, Kobe has a pretty damn good facsimile of Jordan's game, and even surpasses Jordan in certain areas. That is what Phil Jackson said and I agreed.

I am a bit wary of people not answering my questions. I remember every damn MVP MJ won and I watched every championship season. I don't need a run down of his resume. But when I speak of and ask about his GAME in comparison to Kobe...people can't tell me what the difference is between the two. So they either bring up Jordan's resume...or they defame Kobe by attacking his character. I find that sad, and concerning the argument, irrelevant.
 

Shakes

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Kobe topics are like a lamp to a moth when Hou is around, I saw this thread posted and just knew it'd end up with him in here taking a stand for Kobe.

Note to those who hope to get him to budge on his opinion: the best you can hope for is arguing to a stand still, I think I went at it with Hou on the subject for about 3 months last year. :)
 

Marty Baby

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Well...i mean you just seemed sort of taken aback and thought I may have hurt some feelings there, but if that's not how you actually took it, I'm very glad. I was losing sleep over that.

You did ask us to name something Jordan did that Kobe CAN'T do and I actually gave you something. You ignored it and dismissed it - but that doesn't mean it's not a legitimate example because it is.

KOBE CANNOT WIN 5 MVP'S OR WIN 10 SCORING TITLES. KOBE CANNOT GO UNDEFEATED IN THE FINALS.

Is that wrong....? Anyone? Anyone?

Has he done it? At the moment he has 2 scoring crowns and to match Jordan, he'll have to play 8 more years - AND lead the league in scoring for all of them till he's 40. He'll also have to win at least 4 more MVP's.

In order to match Jordan's undefeated finals mark he'll have to find a time machine and make sure his team DIDN'T get blown out by 39 in an elimination game against Boston a few years ago (somehow I don't remember that EVER happening to Jordan - getting blown out by 40 points in a FINALS ELIMINATION GAME!!!!).

Ain't happening.

Not only did Jordan win 5 MVP's, he did it in the hardest era to WIN an MVP in (guys like Olajuwon, David Robinson, Malone (early on), Drexler, Barkley not winning it for YEARS because Magic, Bird and Jordan were hogging em).

Not only did Jordan win 5 MVP's and 10 scoring crowns when ALL those guys were playing, he won 6 titles going 6-0.

Kobe, playing against inferior competition (come on - when Chris Kaman is considered a top center and Steve Nash is winning multiple MVP's you cannot say this league is better than the Dream Team era) not only LOSES 2 finals but also only walks away with 1 MVP and 2 scoring crowns?

What a joke.

WTF? My feelings are not hurt brother. You are the one who practically threatened me a week or two ago when I dared to say something negative about Jordan. If anyone is overly sensitive in this situation its you.

My point was MVPs and titles shouldn't be the gauge as to whether Kobe is better, worse than or as good as Jordan because its unfair. That is not how Jordan was measured to greats who preceded him. People WATCHED him. From your having to watch "reels" to come to your conclusion, you must be unfamiliar with Jordan. I watched damn near every game he played from 1988-1998...I know how great he was as a player, the reels are etched in my mind. That said, Kobe has a pretty damn good facsimile of Jordan's game, and even surpasses Jordan in certain areas. That is what Phil Jackson said and I agreed.

I am a bit wary of people not answering my questions. I remember every damn MVP MJ won and I watched every championship season. I don't need a run down of his resume. But when I speak of and ask about his GAME in comparison to Kobe...people can't tell me what the difference is between the two. So they either bring up Jordan's resume...or they defame Kobe by attacking his character. I find that sad, and concerning the argument, irrelevant.
 
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Marty Baby

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He IS very stubborn and he can't be bothered by the facts.

Kobe topics are like a lamp to a moth when Hou is around, I saw this thread posted and just knew it'd end up with him in here taking a stand for Kobe.

Note to those who hope to get him to budge on his opinion: the best you can hope for is arguing to a stand still, I think I went at it with Hou on the subject for about 3 months last year. :)
 

houheffna

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He IS very stubborn and he can't be bothered by the facts.

I am stubborn about my own opinion because I believe it to be right.

I am really tired of the Steve Nash stuff. Steve Nash is an alltime great basketball player...period. One of the greatest point guards in history. He deserved MVP consideration just as Chris Paul has when healthy. There has not been a point guard who has played at that level since, none of these young guards have.

The question again is where were these facts at when you made that ridiculous statement in the first place? And what made it ridiculous was not argument itself, but the evidence you used to state your position! A couple of videos? Seriously?

So watching those videos, you must have saw two players awfully comparable...to make the comparison, and consider the player mostly considered the lesser player in value more valuable. Or you thought Kobe was so much better than Jordan there is no comparison, which also is scary.

The problem is not my stubbornness here, its the asininity of your argument.
 

Marty Baby

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In my mind, I imagine Hou as being a cross between Jason Whitlock and Stanley from The Office.

Am I close, Hou?

I don't say that in a mean way. It would be cool to see a Stanley with the sports mind of Jason Whitlock. I want you to know I respect your opinion...we as brothas need to stick together.

As crazy as some of the stuff you write is, I respect you as a person and your opinions.

I am stubborn about my own opinion because I believe it to be right.

I am really tired of the Steve Nash stuff. Steve Nash is an alltime great basketball player...period. One of the greatest point guards in history. He deserved MVP consideration just as Chris Paul has when healthy. There has not been a point guard who has played at that level since, none of these young guards have.

The question again is where were these facts at when you made that ridiculous statement in the first place? And what made it ridiculous was not argument itself, but the evidence you used to state your position! A couple of videos? Seriously?

So watching those videos, you must have saw two players awfully comparable...to make the comparison, and consider the player mostly considered the lesser player in value more valuable. Or you thought Kobe was so much better than Jordan there is no comparison, which also is scary.

The problem is not my stubbornness here, its the asininity of your argument.
 

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