Phil Jackson

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

I really think the Bulls were on their last leg in 1998. Pippen would have been 33, Jordan would have been 36 and Rodman 38 by the time the playoffs come around in 1999. I am glad they went out with a blaze of glory and hoped Jordan would have stayed retired after 1998. Again, to totally crap on Krause is unnecessary. I don't think he was great by any means, he did just enough to get by, but he was the one who did it. And don't underestimate the drafting of Kukoc, Kukoc was the second best clutch player on the team. Teams paid good money to get those players over here from Europe.

Matter of fact, he saved their ass in Game 7 against Indiana in 1998. That is when I started to notice a team at the end of the line. They disbanded just in time. Plus, Phil Jackson said that 98-99 should not have counted and pretty much dismissed San Antonio as fake champions because it was a strike-shortened season.

I just think that blaming Reinsdorf and Krause for all Bulls problems without looking at both sides is unfair. Krause could definitely be a butthole, but again what little he did, should be recognized, and it wasn't that much (after Pippen).

I by no means was dismissing Kukoc. That was a good move. He was big in that Game 7 vs. Indiana and he almost single-handedly won Game 5 of the 1998 NBA Finals vs. Utah when Jordan and Pippen played terrible.

I do think the Bulls would have won it in 1999. I know Phil took that swipe at the Spurs, but that wouldn't have been the view of the Bulls obviously, being that they were the three-time defending champs.

I think the Bulls would have won it in 1999. The Knicks went to the Finals as an 8th seed. If the Bulls stayed together, the Knicks would have been bumped out of the playoffs. I still think the Bulls would have beat Indiana. Those games in 1998 in Indy were winnable by the Bulls. Reggie had to two-hand shove Jordan to get off that 3 pointer and Pippen missed those FT's in Game 3. That was the great thing about those Bulls teams, if you were lucky enough to beat them, you barely did. Except for that fluky game vs NY in 1996 when the Knicks won by like 33, not sure what happened that day.

 

[TheStig]

I really think it cam down to money. After the last championship, everyone was up for a huge payday. The only guys we had under contract were brown, wennington, harper and Kukoc. It would have cost a fortune to resign MJ, Pip, Kerr and Rodman. Pippen also wouldn't have settled for a one year deal and ended up getting a huge extension. It really was way too much for JR to spend on a team that was getting older and would require a boatload of money. I really think that team could have contended and probably won another ring or two. They just had the best perimeter defense ever. They also could over come and play smart D to minimize all the dominate bigs, I really think they could have gotten a ring against the spurs and probably taken one from the lakers. Pippen and Jordan would have shut down Kobe and Shaq wasn't good enough to win it alone. They may have struggled a little through the season with injuries getting old but with that team they would be good for the postseason and Kukoc was ready and able to take some additional scoring responsibility.

 

[Shakes]

Getting the right pieces isn't easy at all ... look at the unhappy stars in the lottery who get traded because their GMs couldn't put a good team around them. The hardest part of building around a great player is that player keeps you out of the best lottery spots, so you have to do it via smart free agent signings, trades and crap draft picks. All while on a time limit before the star gets unhappy and decides he's got a better chance elsewhere.

What Krause did after the Jordan era was a disaster, but I think he had at least the right idea. Your best shot at another long contending run is to really, really suck for as long as it takes to luck into a great player or two. The problem for Krause was that depending on your luck it can take a long time, and fans don't want to see their team suck forever.

 

[Diddy1122]

If MJ retired & stayed retired in 98, but Phil came back I would've been happy. I did not want Phil to leave more than anything. But since it was impossible for Phil to work with that little troll, he rode off into the sunset, & the troll decided to give the job to his fishing buddy Tim Floyd, one of the worst decisions ever.

I realized that Rodman was gone & MJ was already 36, but he still had some life left in his legs. Pippen was starting to show the tendonitis problem that would dog him the rest of his career, but he coulda still been a difference maker out there. The team did not need to be blown up. It was Krauses cantankerous attitude with his coach & all his players that caused this team to break up prematurely. And c'mon, if Krause was such a great GM, how come he only got Roy Rogers & a 2nd rounder for Scottie? That trade was absolutely pitiful. I couldn't believe that our 2nd leading scorer of all-time was being traded for the "Happy Trails" guy. They could've atleast thrown Dale Evans in there to keep the duo together.

 

[Kush77]

Shakes wrote:

Getting the right pieces isn't easy at all ... look at the unhappy stars in the lottery who get traded because their GMs couldn't put a good team around them. The hardest part of building around a great player is that player keeps you out of the best lottery spots, so you have to do it via smart free agent signings, trades and crap draft picks. All while on a time limit before the star gets unhappy and decides he's got a better chance elsewhere.

What Krause did after the Jordan era was a disaster, but I think he had at least the right idea. Your best shot at another long contending run is to really, really suck for as long as it takes to luck into a great player or two. The problem for Krause was that depending on your luck it can take a long time, and fans don't want to see their team suck forever.

I think getting parts around Jordan isn't that hard to do.

Now I'm not complaining about the way Krause did the rebuilding (except for the breaking up part) I agree with the rock-bottom philosophy. But once the hit bottom and they got the lottery picks, that's when Krause had his problems.

I agree with Stng that it would have been too much money. But they would have made it all back with another title run. And even if they extended Pippen, they could have moved him after a title in 1999. Hell, the Rockets moved him to Portland after a sub-par 99 season with Houston.

 

[Shakes]

I don't think the Bulls would have won the title. Jordan was in decline ... if you look at his career trajectory, you get a pretty smooth curve if you fill in the gaps between the 2nd three titles and the Wizard years. Pippen and Rodman were both way worse the next year too.

I'm not even sure they'd have made the finals. If they did, I think the Spurs would have beaten them comfortably.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

Getting the right pieces isn't easy at all ... look at the unhappy stars in the lottery who get traded because their GMs couldn't put a good team around them. The hardest part of building around a great player is that player keeps you out of the best lottery spots, so you have to do it via smart free agent signings, trades and crap draft picks. All while on a time limit before the star gets unhappy and decides he's got a better chance elsewhere.

What Krause did after the Jordan era was a disaster, but I think he had at least the right idea. Your best shot at another long contending run is to really, really suck for as long as it takes to luck into a great player or two. The problem for Krause was that depending on your luck it can take a long time, and fans don't want to see their team suck forever.

I don't think it would have been hard to get parts to go with that team. Great players where lining up to play with each other and Houston was able to grab Drexler, Pippen and Barkley for nothing of value. I am sure chuck would have killed for the opportunity to play with MJ and Pip. All you need to do is pick up a cheap center and a group of MJ, Pip, Kukoc, Barkley and maybe Rodman would have killed. I can guarntee you that if we kept the core together, Barkley would have come to us chasing a title.

 

[Kush77]

Shakes wrote:

I don't think the Bulls would have won the title. Jordan was in decline ... if you look at his career trajectory, you get a pretty smooth curve if you fill in the gaps between the 2nd three titles and the Wizard years. Pippen and Rodman were both way worse the next year too.

I'm not even sure they'd have made the finals. If they did, I think the Spurs would have beaten them comfortably.

I disagree, the Bulls would have beaten the Spurs in 1999.

Michael Jordan wasn't falling off that much. He led the league in scoring in 98 at about 28.6 or so. His first year with the Wiz he averaged 22 but that was three years later. He probably would have averaged 26 or 27ppg.

And while Pippen didn't have a good year with Houston, he was good with Portland in 1999-2000. So Pippen wasn't done. Pippen did poorly in Houston more because of the system rather than a decline. Pippen played his whole career in a system that revolved around a guard and ball movement when the triangle was put in. Then he goes to the Rockets when the offense revolves around two post players in Olajuwon and Barkley.

Now Rodman was older than all of them so he could have declined a bit. But his season in 97/98 was better than 96/97 so who knows. The man was in great shape.

So I think the Bulls handle the Spurs with no problems. Jordan and Harper would have manhandled Mario Elie and Avery Johnson. And Pippen would eat Sean Elliot alive.

Robinson was by no means a young man at that time. But Duncan would have been a handful. But the Bulls were able to handle good centers before.

And the biggest key, Steve Kerr wouldn't have been on S.A. B)

 

[TheStig]

Kush77 wrote:

Shakes wrote:

I don't think the Bulls would have won the title. Jordan was in decline ... if you look at his career trajectory, you get a pretty smooth curve if you fill in the gaps between the 2nd three titles and the Wizard years. Pippen and Rodman were both way worse the next year too.

I'm not even sure they'd have made the finals. If they did, I think the Spurs would have beaten them comfortably.

I disagree, the Bulls would have beaten the Spurs in 1999.

Michael Jordan wasn't falling off that much. He led the league in scoring in 98 at about 28.6 or so. His first year with the Wiz he averaged 22 but that was three years later. He probably would have averaged 26 or 27ppg.

And while Pippen didn't have a good year with Houston, he was good with Portland in 1999-2000. So Pippen wasn't done. Pippen did poorly in Houston more because of the system rather than a decline. Pippen played his whole career in a system that revolved around a guard and ball movement when the triangle was put in. Then he goes to the Rockets when the offense revolves around two post players in Olajuwon and Barkley.

Now Rodman was older than all of them so he could have declined a bit. But his season in 97/98 was better than 96/97 so who knows. The man was in great shape.

So I think the Bulls handle the Spurs with no problems. Jordan and Harper would have manhandled Mario Elie and Avery Johnson. And Pippen would eat Sean Elliot alive.

Robinson was by no means a young man at that time. But Duncan would have been a handful. But the Bulls were able to handle good centers before.

And the biggest key, Steve Kerr wouldn't have been on S.A. B)

We would have had Barkley replace him. He went to Houston chasing a title because Pip went there. If we kept Pip, he wouldn't have gone there and only signed for a mill that year. He would have easily been a bull with MJ and Pip.

 

[Diddy1122]

dunkside.com wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

I'll give ya Phil. But I wouldn't call the Rodman trade a steal. Or a bigger steal than Gasol for Kwame. It was a risk at the time. He was like Artest. Weirder & weirder behavior. He headbutted Stacey King. Did you even remember that? Had 20 different hair colors, & was known to party every night. It coulda went bad if it wasn't for Phil. And Jack Haley.

First, the hair colors ... that's BS. When did haircolor prevent anyone from playing good basketball.

Second, the trade happened after the Spurs were destroyed by the Rockets in the WCF. Go and watch that series. I just did a couple of month ago. Hakeem absolutely destroyed Robinson. Rodman played pretty well, even if he showed some attitude. He was actually trying really really hard.

he had 20, 8 (in just 17 min), 14, 19, 12 and 17 rebounds and played some really good D. the truth is robinson just got destroyed by hakeem, but he was the face of the franchise and they needed a scape goat. that team underachieved and someone had to be responsible. rodman was the ideal scape goat. they could blame it on "character issues" and this way they won't have to explain why the mvp got schooled.

of course catching hakeem in god mode didn't help, but blaming the loss on rodman was a dick move. and, turns out, a bad move for them, cause they traded him at 2 cents a dollar.

PS: i'd headbutt stacey king now just to make him stfu. if someone headbutts a bulls player doesn't mean he's automatically crazy or should be treated like a leper. don't forget rodman did the same things or even worse to frank bricowsky in the '96 finals, but i bet at the time you loved every minute of it. barkley fought with a bunch of people too, but i doubt you'd trade him for will f**king perdue for that.

in the end, if you consider the results of the trade, rodman was much more of a steal than gasol. so far 3peat trumps a title and a finals appearance.

Firstly, I used the haircolors to show how his behavior had rapidly changed from his Pistons time to the latter part of his career. I never said it prevented him from being one of the greatest rebounders of all time.

Secondly, I remember the WCF in 95 & Hakeem was ridiculous. And you're making it out to sound like no one on the team was trying but Rodman. Gimme a break! Robinson was the MVP for cryin' out loud! You're telling me Worm was trying harder than anyone else? He took a leave of absence for no reason at the beginning of the season, then injured his shoulder while fooling around on a motorcycle. It was Rodman's attitude & ridiculous behavior on & off the court that got him shipped out of SA for 2 cents. He made himself the scapegoat.

And I'm sorry to be hatin on your bff, but I never liked him. Even when he was a Bull. I loved his rebounding & D. That's it. I hated everything else about him. His hair, his attitude, his wedding gowns, the T's, kicking cameramen, getting in fights, I could go on & on.

The trade can't be considered a steal because of the high risk that was involved. The Gasol trade was not high risk at all. It was a gift wrapped trade to a franchise begging for a legitimate # 2 option. Alot of teams thought that Rodman was playing himself out of the league because of all his antics. The Bulls were willing to take the chance on him & I'm glad it worked out well, cuz Phil is the master. But there's a very good chance that it coulda blown up in Krause's face.

 

[dougthonus]

I just finished reading "Last Season" by Phil Jackson which was pretty good. It was interesting in that everyone said Kobe was portrayed horribly in the book, but I didn't get the feeling reading it.

The other interesting thing is a quote from Jerry Krause to Jackson where Krause said something like "You're done here after this year, we're getting rid of all of you". I can't find it exactly, but Krause, according to Jackson in this book, was anxious to get rid of everyone and seemed against even bringing them back in 98.

 

[houheffna]

We would have had Barkley replace him. He went to Houston chasing a title because Pip went there. If we kept Pip, he wouldn't have gone there and only signed for a mill that year. He would have easily been a bull with MJ and Pip.

Barkley was old and fat, Scottie was upset that Barkley wasn't in shape. And you are wrong about Barkley coming to Houston to play with Pip, Barkley was already in Houston for a couple of seasons. The Rockets last chance was 96-97 Season with Drexler, Olajuwon and Barkley, they lost in the WCF to the Jazz. By the time Pippen got to Houston, Pippen was getting handled by Kobe by then in the playoffs.

So I think the Bulls handle the Spurs with no problems. Jordan and Harper would have manhandled Mario Elie and Avery Johnson. And Pippen would eat Sean Elliot alive.

Yeah but who does what with Duncan and Robinson? The Bulls never faced a PF/C combination like that and they were not as old. Would not have been an easy series. That is a lot of homerism right there...

 

[dougthonus]

During contract negotiations for Jackson's final year with the Bulls, when the topic of a potential extension past the 1997–98 season came up, Krause reportedly told Jackson, "I don't care if you go 82-and-0, you're f****** gone."

This was what it was. I thought that was simply amazing.

 

[houheffna]

WHY did he say that? Two sides to every story.

 

[dougthonus]

houheffna wrote:

WHY did he say that? Two sides to every story.

Unless Jackson had just shot his dog, it doesn't matter.

Krause is the GM. Fans don't come to watch a team because they like the GM. They come to watch a team which is great. Jackson's always done a great job managing talent realizing that he's not the show.

The show as Jordan or Shaq or Kobe. Krause never realized he wasn't the show. He didn't realize that he needed Jackson, Jordan, and Pippen a lot more than they needed him.

 

[houheffna]

Let's not pretend that Phil was Mahatma Ghandhi. Many in the media said that his attitude changed over time also. That relationship died out over so many years and I heard that both sides were to blame for that. They used to talk about that a lot on the Score and I believe in the book you are talking about. That is why I asked.

 

[Shakes]

Kush77 wrote:

Michael Jordan wasn't falling off that much. He led the league in scoring in 98 at about 28.6 or so. His first year with the Wiz he averaged 22 but that was three years later. He probably would have averaged 26 or 27ppg.

It's not so much volume but efficiency that was falling off. His age meant he was becoming mainly a jump shooter, and without a 3 point shot you're never going to be that efficient like that.

And while Pippen didn't have a good year with Houston, he was good with Portland in 1999-2000. So Pippen wasn't done. Pippen did poorly in Houston more because of the system rather than a decline. Pippen played his whole career in a system that revolved around a guard and ball movement when the triangle was put in. Then he goes to the Rockets when the offense revolves around two post players in Olajuwon and Barkley.

Pippen with Portland was still nowhere near Pippen with the Bulls.

Now Rodman was older than all of them so he could have declined a bit. But his season in 97/98 was better than 96/97 so who knows. The man was in great shape.

Declined a bit? He played a grand total of 35 more games after the 98 season, and his performance in those games had the "drop off a cliff" aspect that Bulls fans know from Ben Wallace in his second year here. He was done.

So I think the Bulls handle the Spurs with no problems. Jordan and Harper would have manhandled Mario Elie and Avery Johnson. And Pippen would eat Sean Elliot alive.

Robinson was by no means a young man at that time. But Duncan would have been a handful. But the Bulls were able to handle good centers before.

Duncan and Robinson together would have been hard to handle with the corpse of Rodman and our warm body center policy. In 99 Robinson was still a very, very good player, 16/10 with 2.4 blocks in only 32 minutes a game. And defensively, in the last 30 years the only team to give up fewer points per 100 was the 03-04 Spurs.

Obviously we'd have the advantage of Jordan/Pippen, but by '99 I think Duncan/Robinson vs our PF/C was a bigger difference than Jordan/Pippen vs their SG/SF.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

We would have had Barkley replace him. He went to Houston chasing a title because Pip went there. If we kept Pip, he wouldn't have gone there and only signed for a mill that year. He would have easily been a bull with MJ and Pip.

Barkley was old and fat, Scottie was upset that Barkley wasn't in shape. And you are wrong about Barkley coming to Houston to play with Pip, Barkley was already in Houston for a couple of seasons. The Rockets last chance was 96-97 Season with Drexler, Olajuwon and Barkley, they lost in the WCF to the Jazz. By the time Pippen got to Houston, Pippen was getting handled by Kobe by then in the playoffs.

So I think the Bulls handle the Spurs with no problems. Jordan and Harper would have manhandled Mario Elie and Avery Johnson. And Pippen would eat Sean Elliot alive.

Yeah but who does what with Duncan and Robinson? The Bulls never faced a PF/C combination like that and they were not as old. Would not have been an easy series. That is a lot of homerism right there...

That fat and out of shape barkley still put up 16, 12, 4.5 and would have easily ditched the rockets if they didn't replace Drexler at all. Pip was the key to extending their run. Thats why they gave him that monster deal.

 

[houheffna]

With an aging Olajwon, Barkley and Pippen couldn't get out of the first round in the playoffs that year, but they would have joined Jordan and went all the way? Pippen ragged on Barkley for being fat and demanded a trade. Jordan probably would have punched Barkley in the eye. That would have been a messy situation.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

With an aging Olajwon, Barkley and Pippen couldn't get out of the first round in the playoffs that year, but they would have joined Jordan and went all the way? Pippen ragged on Barkley for being fat and demanded a trade. Jordan probably would have punched Barkley in the eye. That would have been a messy situation.

The West was so much deeper than the east. The eight seed knicks made it to the finals that year, then the same pacers team we beat for our last ring and lastly a 76ers team. The bulls could have very realistically made it out of the east each of the next three years. The west was so much tougher and the rockets had nothing but fringe nba players at both guard spots. It was a joke outside of those 3, we still would have had kukoc, harper, kerr,rodman and longley. All were much better than the rockets supporting cast.

That and I hope that one day we have such a fat and old pf that can put up 16, 12 and 4.5 and be considered garbage by you. We would have easily made the finals for at least 2 out of the 3 yrs and MJ has always been able to turn it up when we got there.