Phil Jackson

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

The Bulls would not have swept that team without those guys, Worthy was very young anyway. Luc Longley never had to face a Moses or Kareem in the finals...if he had, he would have had serious problems, and try putting Rodman on Kareem or Moses...good luck with that.

So I guess you think the '72 Dolphins are the greatest NFL team?

Sorry, but again, we will have to disagree. Pippen is at best the 4th best offensive player on the floor. Andrew Toney was huge offensively, he was Ben Gordon's best fourth quarter performances, except for a whole game...especially against the best teams. That team had no weaknesses at no position...and speaking of defense...ever heard of Bobby Jones? Came off the bench, better player than Kukoc. Who guards Moses? Who guards Dr. J? Jordan would have to play some defense against that team, something he was lax in doing in those years.

Rodman guarded Shaquille O'Neal in the 1996 ECF and held his own. I think he could have guarded a much smaller Moses Malone. Moses is listed on b-ball reference as 6-10 215. 215? Is that true? I don't know if I believe that. but the fact is, he's smaller than Shaq. We know Shaq is 7'1 over 300.

And Luc Longley would have been okay, again, just because the Bulls didn't play a great center in the NBA Finals doesn't mean they never faced one. Ewing, Mourning, O'Neal they had to deal with en-route to the Finals in 1996.

Who guards Dr. J,? The best defensive SF of all-time Scottie Pippen or Jordan. Dr. J was 6-7. Andrew Toney would be checked by Jordan and Mo would be guarded by Ron Harper. And before you laugh at Ron Harper look at the PG he guarded in the 1996 playoffs, Tim Hardaway, Harper/Starks, Penny Hardaway and Gary Payton.

1996 Scottie Pippen is better than 1983 Dr. J. Julius was still an all-star, but he was past his prime. 1996 Scottie Pippen was in his prime. Better than Dr. J on both sides of the ball at that point in their careers. J was 33 and Pip was 30 at those times.

I don't think the 72 Dolphins are the best team of all-time in football. I'd probably go with 1995 Dallas or the 1985 Bears and one of the 70's Pittsburgh teams, the 1989 49ers were bad-ass. I think that's tougher.
But if one of your points for the Sixers is that they swept LA, then I'll make a point for the 1996 Bulls that they were 72-10 and won 87 out of 100 games in one season.

As for Worthy being young, that's not an excuse for 1983. What I mean is that it's not like today where a guy like Worth would be 18 or 19 as a rookie. Worthy played 3 years of college ball and was an impact player on the team that year. Not having him was a blow. Same with not having McAdoo for 2 games and Nixon for 1. I think the Bulls could sweep an injured Lakers team.

We'll just agree to disagree. But I'm enjoying the discussion.

 

[TheStig]

Kush77 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

"Don't ever underestimate the heart of a champion" Rudy T

End of story, I can't believe that anyone can argue that the dynasty bulls wouldn't make it out of the weak east. With junk teams like the knicks, pacers and 76ers coming out of the east, a healthy bulls team and everyone continued being healthy after they left, would have easily come out of the east.

Your talking about making out of the East for 99, 00 and 01. I don't know.

The Bulls win the title in 1999. I have no doubt there.

But as for winning the East in 2000 or 2001, I would think the Bulls would need some extra help at that point. The Bulls never had the benefit of a veteran jumping on board just for a shot at the ring. Kinda like Malone and Payton with the Lakers in 04, even though it didn't work in that case.

Maybe some veteran looking for a ring would have joined the Bulls. Who knows.

I think they win the title in 1999. Not as confident beyond that.

Thats fine, I can't guarntee a ring either, but I can say without a doubt they would have made the finals at least two out of the 3 yrs easily. And I don't understand how an organization can pass up a contender like that. I just like the match up against the lakers. Sure a prime Shaq would have destroyed us but he disappeared in the 4th and we would have had two of the best perimeter defenders ever to lock down Kobe. I really think we could have won games in the 4th quarter against them.

 

[Kush77]

JayJohnstone wrote:

houheffna wrote:

...try putting Rodman on Kareem or Moses...good luck with that.

Sorry, but again, we will have to disagree. Pippen is at best the 4th best offensive player on the floor. Andrew Toney was huge offensively, he was Ben Gordon's best fourth quarter performances, except for a whole game...especially against the best teams. That team had no weaknesses at no position...and speaking of defense...ever heard of Bobby Jones? Came off the bench, better player than Kukoc. Who guards Moses? Who guards Dr. J? Jordan would have to play some defense against that team, something he was lax in doing in those years.

The Sixers were my team back in the day. I lived outside Philly until I moved to Chicago in the mid-80s. I think the 2nd 3peat Bulls would destroy that Sixers team. They match up beutifully.

Rodman, of course, could cover Moses Malone. Rodman had no troubles guarding Karl Malone who was bigger with more skills.

Pippen and MJ could guard Dr. J and Toney just fine.

You are right the Sixers had a lot of talent but Bulls would have 4 of the 5 best defenders in the series.

And I also can't agree that the Sixers had no weaknessess. They did start Marc Iavaroni.

I didn't see Jay's post here. I agree with him (surprised?)

Defensively the Bulls matchup well with 83 Philly.

 

[Diddy1122]

To add a lil bit to this debate, Hollinger ranked his top 10 finals teams of all time yesterday.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playo...y?columnist=hollinger_john&page=Finalists1-10

4 Bulls squads made the list. The 76ers did not. But then again Hollinger had the 2008 Boston Celtics at #10 which I think is ludicrous.

 

[houheffna]

Don't know who Hollinger is but I disagree. Marc Iavroni played 20 minutes a game. What makes everybody think that Moses could be stopped by Rodman? Got news for all of you, not only was Moses a better player, he was a better rebounder. Sorry, I can't do the homer thing. I would definitely put the Bulls in the top 3...any list that has 4 different Bulls teams on it is a bit much don't you think?

 

[Hendu0520]

There should be 6 Bulls teams on the list. The greatest thing about those Bull's teams was that they were so consistent. Even though the roster changed around the 2 big guys, they were virtually the same team every year, everyone knew they would win.

I can't believe he put the Laker's team from this year on there over any of the Shaq and Kobe Lakers teams, obviously his formula is flawed. The '09 lakers would have been beat by the Celtics again if they were healthy, lol, shoot they almost lost to the Magic, ha.

As for the 76ers beating the Bulls, are you kidding me, the 76ers couldn't even win 2 in a row and weren't even the dominant team of the time. Oh yah Bobby Jones was better than Kukoc, ha. What about 6'6, 6'6, 6'7, that was our backcourt of Harper, Jordan and Pippen, that's what kills all other teams ever right there. Defensively or Offensively the Bulls were the best. Down low we had Rodman to throw at Shaq because he was just that good, but we had the 3 headed monsters of Cartwright, Wennington, King and Longley, Purdue, Edwards to give 24 fouls against any Moses,Kareem,Shaq,Olajuwon, Robinson,Smits, Mourning, and Ewing that came around. The Bulls teams were carefully orchestrated by Phil to have little weaknesses and the weaknesses we did have were covered like the example of the 3 headed centers.

And still Rodman, and the 3 heads couldn't stop Shaq they just contained him a bit. I think that the best matchup would be the '02 Lakers (when Kobe was better, '00 he still wasn't that good). So '02 Lakers give the 96-97 Bulls a run for their money. The Bulls edge them out because of a better bench and better team chemistry. But that team gives us matchup problems, not to mention their starting pg was Harper too, although older. None of those old Laker or Celtics teams even come close. Who on the Magic Lakers is going to make shots match for match with Jordan and poor Kareem would get beaten up by 3 7 footers, not to mention Luc was huge and physical, a great post defender one on one. Byron Scott was there 2 guard, even earlier Cooper. Our huge guards give them fits, not to mention Scottie was as good a scorer as most of their number one scorers. The early Jordan years, when he had no help he gave the Celtics fits, imagine if he had the '91 team in '86 sorry Boston and LA it would have been Chicago's world then too.

 

[houheffna]

You lost me with the 6 bulls teams should be in the top 10, caught a bit of homeritis and couldn't read anything after that. jk.

Loved the Bulls teams, but the teams in the 1980's were unbelievable. So you have to win more than one? We are not ranking dynasties. One year, one team. The Bulls have never had to face teams like those in the 1980's. Name one great team they faced? The destroyed the Bad Boys, who was on their last legs and couldn't hang with the Bulls. Those Celtic teams in the 80's had the best frontcourt in NBA history. The Lakers teams back then had the greatest PG and the best center arguably ever. You are talking 6 top 50 players between those two teams alone. So with the 83 team, you had Moses, another all time great center and Dr. J. You had Maurice Cheeks, should be in the hall of fame, and you had Andrew Toney. Again, if you love Ben Gordon, you would really be in love with Toney.

And please stop saying the Bulls were the best offensively...a lot of times it was Jordan and a cloud of dust...no one else was doing anything offensively.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

You lost me with the 6 bulls teams should be in the top 10, caught a bit of homeritis and couldn't read anything after that. jk.

Loved the Bulls teams, but the teams in the 1980's were unbelievable. So you have to win more than one? We are not ranking dynasties. One year, one team. The Bulls have never had to face teams like those in the 1980's. Name one great team they faced? The destroyed the Bad Boys, who was on their last legs and couldn't hang with the Bulls. Those Celtic teams in the 80's had the best frontcourt in NBA history. The Lakers teams back then had the greatest PG and the best center arguably ever. You are talking 6 top 50 players between those two teams alone. So with the 83 team, you had Moses, another all time great center and Dr. J. You had Maurice Cheeks, should be in the hall of fame, and you had Andrew Toney. Again, if you love Ben Gordon, you would really be in love with Toney.

And please stop saying the Bulls were the best offensively...a lot of times it was Jordan and a cloud of dust...no one else was doing anything offensively.

Why do think Dennis Rodman couldn't guard Moses Malone? Again, he guarded Shaq in the 1996 ECF. Why wouldn't he be able to handle Moses Malone?

Again, Scottie Pippen, Michael Jordan and Dennis Rodman are arguably the greatest defensive players at their position in the history of the sport. The Bulls would throw three of the GREATEST defenders in the history of the league at Philly's three best players.

what great team did the Bulls face?? Are you serious? The Utah Jazz. You keep talking about how great Moses and Dr. J are, how about Karl Malone and john Stockton? I suppose they're garbage??

The 1996 Seattle Supersonice. They won 64 games with Shawn Kemp, Gary Payton, Hersey Hawkins, Sam Perkins and Detlef Schrempf. I suppose those guys suck too?

The 1992 Portland Trailblazers. Clyde Drexler, Terry Porter, Jerome Kersey, Buck Williams and Kevin Duckworth. I suppose they suck too?

The Bulls have the two best players on the court in Pippen and Jordan. Remember, were talking 1996 Bulls vs 1983 Sixers. In 1996 Jordan and Pippen were both better than Dr. J and Malone were in 1983.

You keep talking about who guards players on the Sixers. Please tell me who guards Toni Kukoc? If you have to deal with Jordan and Pippen, who guards Kukoc? the 6'll lefty who handles the ball like a PG? Who guards him? Dr. J? Then who guards MJ and Pippen?

You don't seem to be addressing any of my points and keep falling back on "homerism."

As for the offense being MJ and a "cloud of dust." That couldn't be further from the truth. Just look at the stats.

1996 Bulls beat the 1983 Sixers. Sorry. No "homerism", just the truth.

 

[Kush77]

As for the 1986 Celtics...they played the 1986 Bulls in the first round of the NBA playoffs that year. and while the Bulls were swept, they averaged 113 ppg.

If a 30-win, 8th seeded team could average 113ppg vs the mighty 86 C's, what do you think the 72-10 Bulls would do to them offensively? I'm sure you'd agree that the 1996 Bulls were at least better than the 1986 Bulls??

 

[dougthonus]

houheffna wrote:

Don't know who Hollinger is but I disagree. Marc Iavroni played 20 minutes a game. What makes everybody think that Moses could be stopped by Rodman? Got news for all of you, not only was Moses a better player, he was a better rebounder. Sorry, I can't do the homer thing. I would definitely put the Bulls in the top 3...any list that has 4 different Bulls teams on it is a bit much don't you think?

Malone wasn't a better rebounder. He had a career 19.5% rebound percentage (grabbin 19.5% of available rebounds) while Rodman had a 23.4% rebound percentage. This adjusts for pace and era. So you are objectively wrong on the rebounding point.

The subjective debate about whether Rodman could guard Malone is, of course, subjective.

 

[Kush77]

Rodman could guard Malone, I don't know why that would be a question?

According to b-ball reference Malone is 6'10 215. Rodman could guard him and would probably give him fits. Just like he did with Shaq or Mourning or Kemp or Karl Malone or any other all-star he's guarded during his career.

And just looking at the basic numbers for rebounding:

Rodman top 3 rebounding seasons
18.7, 18.3, 17.3

Malone's
17.6, 15.3, 14.8

And throw in that Rodman is listed at 6'7 210, I'd say Rodman is the better rebounder considering he's giving 3 inches.

Again, not homerism, just facts.

 

[Hendu0520]

Kush77 wrote:

As for the 1986 Celtics...they played the 1986 Bulls in the first round of the NBA playoffs that year. and while the Bulls were swept, they averaged 113 ppg.

If a 30-win, 8th seeded team could average 113ppg vs the mighty 86 C's, what do you think the 72-10 Bulls would do to them offensively? I'm sure you'd agree that the 1996 Bulls were at least better than the 1986 Bulls??

Thank you, right on point Kush plus the '97 Bulls tied the '72 Lakers with the second best record of all time a year after shattering it with 72 wins. That is unbelievable, there is no way that Sixers team competes.

No offense on the Bulls is just silly. We had the greatest scorer of all time, and basically 2 other 20ppg scorers in Pippen and Kukoc. The year Jordan retired the Bulls were still at the top offensively in the league even when losing the best of all time. Pippen was an mvp candidate. Longley never missed a wide open 15 footer and all of the players off the bench were deadly shooters. Our low post scorer was Jordan with everyone else wreaking havoc cutting and shooting, and compared to the times the Bulls were much better offensively than the '83 76ers who were considered a tough eastern conference defensive team. The best old school team to me is the 80's Lakers but Kareem your greatest center was old, he was the greatest center in the 70's not the 80's. Remember Kareem and Oscar in Milwaukee that's when he was great, not in the late 80's when L.A. won 2 in a row. Oh yah A.c. Green was there big 6th man that is scary, while James Worthy has a finals MVP, do you think he would be flyin around getting MVP's against Rodaman and Pippen? I think not. And the mighty Pistons and Celtics let the Lakers dominate like that, hhhm suspect to me.

 

[JayJohnstone]

NBA.com has Moses @260 lbs. http://www.nba.com/history/players/malonem_summary.html

I think that's a lot more accurate then 215. He was a similar size but fatter than Karl Malone. Still, Rodman didn't have any trouble guarding guys this size.

 

[Kush77]

JayJohnstone wrote:

NBA.com has Moses @260 lbs. http://www.nba.com/history/players/malonem_summary.html

I think that's a lot more accurate then 215. He was a similar size but fatter than Karl Malone. Still, Rodman didn't have any trouble guarding guys this size.

That's more like it. I was gonna say, he's looks bigger than 215.

But you're right, even at 260, he can still guard him. Just like Shaq and Karl Malone.

 

[houheffna]

Moses and Shaq were not the same player. Moses and Karl were not the same player. Rodman guarded Shaq (at times, not exclusively) but he didn't stop Shaq. And he wouldn't have stopped Moses. I think you underrate Dr. J. he was a great player and still in his prime.





Mr. Kush-Its Houheffna...like the Playboy guy...my name is Houston...just a play on the name. Enjoyed the podcast...disagree with 90% of what you said, but enjoyed it.


By the way, I am a huge Pippen fan, great defensive player, if you do the top 50 all time now...is he on the list? Moses in 1983 was not fat, he was arguably the best player in the league, he might have been 215 when he entered the league at 18. I think the Bulls are definitely top 3, just don't think they are unbeatable.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Moses and Shaq were not the same player. Moses and Karl were not the same player. Rodman guarded Shaq (at times, not exclusively) but he didn't stop Shaq. And he wouldn't have stopped Moses. I think you underrate Dr. J. he was a great player and still in his prime.


Mr. Kush-Its Houheffna...like the Playboy guy...my name is Houston...just a play on the name. Enjoyed the podcast...disagree with 90% of what you said, but enjoyed it.


By the way, I am a huge Pippen fan, great defensive player, if you do the top 50 all time now...is he on the list? Moses in 1983 was not fat, he was arguably the best player in the league, he might have been 215 when he entered the league at 18. I think the Bulls are definitely top 3, just don't think they are unbeatable.

Disagreed with 90% LOL. What did you agree with? That my name was Brian Kush LOL.

I guess we need to define "stop" or "handle." I think I said it on the show. There would be nights where Moses would get his. He's a great player and wouldn't be held to 10ppg or anything. But there would be nights where Rodman could force him into a bad shooting night. Rodman also did a good job a Shaq in 1996. For a guy that 6'7 210 to even hold his own with Shaq is impressive.

Houheffna like Hugh Hefner. Got it.

Would Pippen be in the top 50 now? Probably not. Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, LeBron James would go in now. And you might say why LeBron. But If Shaq qualified for the top 50 in only half way through his 5th year then LeBron would qualify. Shaq didn't even have an MVP at that point, LeBron does. And they both made the Finals once.

I'd have to look at the list though. Because I personally think Bill Walton shouldn't be on it.