PHILOSOPHY THREAD

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[ginnie]

View Postroshinaya, on 25 January 2011 - 05:28 AM, said:

To the tree falling in the forest question, my stance is that if no one is there to hear it then there is no sound. The physical manifestation of "sound" exists, but it only becomes a sound if there is someone that interprets the fluctuating air pressure to what we perceive as sound.

Ginnie: Rosh doesn't think so.

It doesn't make any sense to me anyway - sound exists but doesn't if no one hears it? Sounds like some weird semantics goin' on...

 

[MassHavoc]

It doesn't make any sense to me anyway - sound exists but doesn't if no one hears it? Sounds like some weird semantics goin' on...

I'm with you, if it exists if someone hears it, then it still exists even if they don't.

 

[ginnie]

I'm with you, if it exists if someone hears it, then it still exists even if they don't.

Maybe what we have here is a confusion over what sound is. If sound is the soundwave itself then the falling tree would make a sound. But if sound is said to be the soundwave after it travels to anyone's ears (human or otherwise) then I guess you could say the tree would not make a sound. You need "ears" to perceive it. The soundwaves on their own doesn not make any "sound". It only becomes "sound" after traveling down your to ears and vibrating your earthingies...

So Rosh is right...

Therefore I've changed my mind.

My conclusion:

The soundwaves themselves certainly exist.

The noise they make don't exist unless it is perceived by someone with ears (or fake ones like a microphone and such)...



In other words, the "sound" is produced by your the mechanism in your ears, not by the tree itself.

 

[MassHavoc]

That's my boat, sound exists because it's still the same entity weather it's floating in the forest or inside the ear. it's still the same thing, waves. Just because we don't perceive it doesn't mean that the physical entity that makes that noise doesn't exist.

 

[ginnie]

That's my boat, sound exists because it's still the same entity weather it's floating in the forest or inside the ear. it's still the same thing, waves. Just because we don't perceive it doesn't mean that the physical entity that makes that noise doesn't exist.

Like I said, the soundwaves exist. The sound doesn't necessarily. The sound is the noise created in your eardrum.

 

[MassHavoc]

Like I said, the soundwaves exist. The sound doesn't necessarily. The sound is the noise created in your eardrum.

I guess in that, no the sound doesn't exist because it's just a perception. Especially since we process the waves in different ways and sometimes here things differently.

 

[ginnie]

Now the more I think about it the more I get confused.

Looking this up on the web, it seems that the "soundwave" IS sound.



Sound is a mechanical wave that results from the back and forth vibration of the particles of the medium through which the sound wave is moving



If this definition is correct, then no ears need to be around to perceive it.



So based on this I've changed my mind. Can I do that?

 

[MassHavoc]

Now the more I think about it the more I get confused.

Looking this up on the web, it seems that the "soundwave" IS sound.



Sound is a mechanical wave that results from the back and forth vibration of the particles of the medium through which the sound wave is moving



If this definition is correct, then no ears need to be around to perceive it.



So based on this I've changed my mind. Can I do that?

Yep, and I guess what I'm trying to say is that the sound always exists, but what we perceive it to be doesn't until we hear it. The sound is always there but since people percieve it differently, to some people they'll hear the high or the low or both, or maybe it's louder to some than to others, none of that exists until it hits the ears... or actually the brain since that's what forms the perception of what the sounds that are hitting your head actually sound like.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Yep, and I guess what I'm trying to say is that the sound always exists, but what we perceive it to be doesn't until we hear it. The sound is always there but since people percieve it differently, to some people they'll hear the high or the low or both, or maybe it's louder to some than to others, none of that exists until it hits the ears... or actually the brain since that's what forms the perception of what the sounds that are hitting your head actually sound like.

Even deaf people perceive sound through vibration... there is no doubt that it exists.

 

[MassHavoc]

Even deaf people perceive sound through vibration... there is no doubt that it exists.

Exactly, that is a good example of what I was trying to say, it still is an entity with impact and consequences.

 

[BigPete]

I would like to introduce a new idea now.



Why does the human psyche require validation of one's self worth? Is this what creates one's soul?



In your own words.

 

[MassHavoc]

I would like to introduce a new idea now.



Why does the human psyche require validation of one's self worth? Is this what creates one's soul?



In your own words.

I'm not quite sure what you mean honestly... on top of that, I don't believe in a "soul" as it's commonly defined.

 

[BigPete]

This shouldn't be the only resource we use for definitions but I did get this 'from Jung' on wiki:

I have been compelled, in my investigations into the structure of the unconscious, to make a conceptual distinction between soul and psyche. By psyche, I understand the totality of all psychic processes, conscious as well as unconscious. By soul, on the other hand, I understand a clearly demarcated functional complex that can best be described as a "personality". (Jung, 1971: Def. 48 par. 797)

So my question is this: why do 'we' need to have some kind of reason for being to feel self worth in our minds? Why can't 'we' just accept that we are hear and living in a certain structure of society and exploit that or be okay with it? Why do we need a reason for being?



More clear?

 

[TSD]

If a poster leaves the boards, yet their username is still registered, did they really leave the boards?

























too soon?

 

[TSD]

This shouldn't be the only resource we use for definitions but I did get this 'from Jung' on wiki:





So my question is this: why do 'we' need to have some kind of reason for being to feel self worth in our minds? Why can't 'we' just accept that we are hear and living in a certain structure of society and exploit that or be okay with it? Why do we need a reason for being?



More clear?

Our reason for being is simply that. We are biologically driven to survive and procreate, thats pretty much it, anything else is up to the individual.

 

[BigPete]

Our reason for being is simply that. We are biologically driven to survive and procreate, thats pretty much it, anything else is up to the individual.

Okay, but you just did it too Tim. You gave a reason. I'm asking why we even need that reason....ah ah ah?

 

[TSD]

Okay, but you just did it too Tim. You gave a reason. I'm asking why we even need that reason....ah ah ah?

Well we dont. We don't really have that reason "consciously" Its biologically driven. i.e. If someone starts shooting at me I experience fear and try to avoid being shot. I get horny and want to **** someone.



So in essence we don't need those, and I don't think we really "have" them because they arent conscious reasons for living.



So i guess I am saying we don't need a tangible reason to live. I don't believe there is any secret to life. It just is and you make the best of it, I like life too much to want to just kill myself because "whats the point?" i don't need a point.