PHILOSOPHY THREAD

BigPete

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Whoa, don't go and kill yourself now. lol



I get what you are saying about it being preconditioned. Makes sense. I wonder if some people have the version of that which calls for 'needing' a diety?
 

TSD

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Whoa, don't go and kill yourself now. lol



I get what you are saying about it being preconditioned. Makes sense. I wonder if some people have the version of that which calls for 'needing' a diety?



Yeah its a common argument for religion. Without the goal of dying and going to heaven, whats the point? Why not just kill yourself?



To which I respond, I enjoy my life, I don't want it to end. I think its a pretty sad existence if your life isn't worth living if you don't think there is some Utopian reward upon death. I mean how much different is heaven than winning the mega millions lottery at a young age, being very attractive, and everyone you care about is still alive? Lets go through the check list, you can have just about anything you want, check. All your loved ones are with you, check. Your rich and attractive, so you can even have any woman/man you want, check.
 

BigPete

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So are you saying that you do believe there is a 'pot of gold' at the end of the rainbow and you are just waiting till you get there? (you can answer that rhetorically of course)



What if the afterlife never changes though? Wouldn't that get old after awile?
 

TSD

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So are you saying that you do believe there is a 'pot of gold' at the end of the rainbow and you are just waiting till you get there? (you can answer that rhetorically of course)



What if the afterlife never changes though? Wouldn't that get old after awile?



No I don't think there is anything after you die. That in itself, doesn't mean life is pointless though is I suppose what I am trying to convey.
 

BigPete

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Got it. I got caught up in words on your last post.



That is where I am at now too. It doesn't mean I don't like my life and want to keep the status quo. But it does give me a whole new understanding to 'why we are here'. I say, "who cares? You are here so what is the point in worrying about how you got here?" Just do something with it now. And if that just means wasting it, or if that means doing something great, or if that means sacrificing for others, it's your choice. But I don't need to worry about how/why I got here. That makes it easier for me to let go of ego and past transgressions.



Life happens.
 

Chief Walking Stick

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No I don't think there is anything after you die. That in itself, doesn't mean life is pointless though is I suppose what I am trying to convey.



If there's nothing after you die, why are you living?
 

BigPete

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If there's nothing after you die, why are you living?

I don't think those two things are connected in any way. A living person's conciousness and a dead person's lack of the same are mutually exclusive.



Is that what you menat? Or were you focusing on the 'why bother living if there is nothing good afterwards'?
 

TSD

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If there's nothing after you die, why are you living?



Because I like living....its as simple as that. I never quite understood the logic behind "if you dont believe in God/heaven, why do you keep on living". Because I like my life, I enjoy it, therefore why would I desire to end it?



By this logic there were/are animals that serve no purpose. If we are infinitely important, made by a creator and our goal is to live ad godly life and get into heaven why are there creatures on this planet that are completely irrelevant to us. If every creature on the Galapagos islands was slaughtered, the world would move on without missing a beat, its a essentially a closed system, the world would make whatever minor adjustment it needs to and keep spinning and would have no affect whatsoever on the human race other than pissing off some hippies.



Creatures lived and disappeared long before we were ever even on the scene....





So basically what I am saying, everything just is, it doesn't have to have a purpose or a reason. Its just as difficult to comprehend as say a creator who made us for the sole purpose of testing us, and at the end of our days keeping us or throwing us away. Add to that a system that does not test each individual equally. i.e. someone may live an amoral life and get that deathbed opportunity to absolve themself from sin, while somebody who was alright but not perfect, gets killed suddenly in a car wreck, and while overall he may have been better than that other man, he wasn't right enough with God and gets cast into the hellfire.



There is just too much that doesn't add up in terms of a finite "good" afterlife and "bad" afterlife.



Sure like many others I would like the idea of really sick fucks rotting in a fire pit for eternity. But generally with the way it would work, too many people, that by standards of human law, wouldnt deserve that, would share the same fate on the same token, people that shouldnt get the reward, by standards of human law...would.



i.e. if I died this instant, lets say the christian, muslim, jew deity is real. I would go strait to hell, wont pass go and collect 200 dollars. Im not a bad guy, Ive had my indiscrestions in life, but in general I am a good person, i do right by other people, Ive done some genuinely selfless things for others, but, that wouldnt be good enough. Now take some child rapist, he could become born again and a total bible banger and get into heaven. Furthermore someone could be a complete freaking saint, and rot in hell for the mere lack of believing.



Stuff like that just doesn't jive with me, there are just too many variables for us to all be "judged" by the same rules. The only way the world makes sense to me is without a God and afterlife. The only way the world can be so "unfair" which it is, is if there is no conscious rhyme or reason behind it, then it makes sense. Why was this person born to poverty only to die of malnutrition and disease by the age of 10? Or how about the age of 5? what was the point of their life? Why did a child mysteriously die 4 days after it came home? what purpose did it serve? does it have a soul? What about a child born Special person or autistic or someone injures a part of their brain that impacts their ability to feel compassion or differentiate between right and wrong? Are they bound to the same rules as everyone else?

When your body enters starvation mode, the first parts of your brain that shut off are all related to what we call our "conscience", so if need be, you will eat your family dog you had for ten years like hes no different than a Marie Calendars chicken fried steak frozen dinner, you will keep reverting to the most base brain functionality to the point your own child might look like fucking porterhouse. One documented instance of this was a British ship in the 19th century marooned on greenland, they were all good friends until they started starving and tried to kill and eat eachother.





That was a rather long winded answer to your question. But what it boils down to lack of an afterlife "in the traditional sense" and a God make absolutely no sense with the world the way it is. On the other hand it makes perfect sense if you remove them from the equation.
 

sth

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I hate philosophy I got a C on it in College.
 

BigPete

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Awesome explanation Tim. Very nice stuff.



I personally feel that people easily believe in a religion, of their choosing (or what was presented to them growing up), because they want that ideal afterlife. That was what I was driving at with the question about the need for validation. I have observed that a lot of people that are religious feel some need for being. Stu G's post kind of proves my point in that regard.



But the point of the religion was really to provide moral and societal guidance, not to give a person a meaning for life. There are 'old wise men' all over the world that are the guardians of their religion's ethos. All they really wanted initially was rules that could tell you how to behave. That had to be coupled with some level of guilt if you didn't toe the line, call that conscience. Without it, people would just work harder to skirt the rules. I think a lot of people in America, especially politicians do that. That is why most of them are lawyers by trade, so they can learn all the rules and then exploit the loop holes. They hide in sheeps clothing behind their religion as if it is some explanation that a person who follows such a moral code would never be a wolf.



I see a trend with younger generations, that don't have religion shoved into their head, grow up to be law abiding citizens who are productive members of society but have no affinity or need for a diety. It would be great if we could evolve past needing that diety as the source of our moral reasoning.



I sincerely hope no one takes offense to this conversation. I am not trying to belittle anyone that has faith. I am only trying to discover psychological reasons for why people have a need for faith.
 

MassHavoc

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While I don't believe in any form or religion, at the same time I think that the ideals that is tries to implement are for the greater good. To that I almost think that it is necessary as a check and balance for society to have this type of thinking. If there was no religion, I fear what the alternative would be. I fear how we would institute a morality upon the masses. Some people are just plain dumb, they can't come to these things on their own. To me Religion is not so much a way of life as it is a social program to instill that self-worth and well being/self image that a lot of people need. That type of there is no good without the bad, well if we all believe that there is no heaven, and there is no hell. I sometimes thing that people would be very much less inclined to do the right thing, without eternal consequences weighing over them. Even a lot of people that don't believe in an afterlife, probably still live their life with a "just in case sort of view". They do good things just in case they are wrong. So even the mere perception that their is an afterlife is strong enough to make people more "good" than "bad" and I think without even that perception, we could be in a world of pain. I don't' know what the alternative is, but I hope as the number of atheists, agnostics, ect... increases we find a way to manage this system.
 

BigPete

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I hear you Mass. I have actually tried very hard not to let myself fall into the "I should behave this way or that, just in case." If I don't believe, then I don't believe. Ya know.
 

MassHavoc

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I hear you Mass. I have actually tried very hard not to let myself fall into the "I should behave this way or that, just in case." If I don't believe, then I don't believe. Ya know.



I don't believe either, and I don't think I'm a just in case either. I just can't for the life of me figure out how to instil a system of moralities into people without some sort of Do good or you'll go to hell, or even Karma, good things happen to good people type of thing. I mean in essence these things are just perceptions that don't really exist. Yet I feel some for of them need to be present in order to keep balance.My wife and I have had some good "discussions" about religion, especially since her grandpa was a big deal in the Lutheran Church. She wants to make sure that our kids grow up in the church, and I have no problem with that as long as they are allowed to make their own decisions. I think the "stories" that are told are invaluable to teaching a lot to a child about how to act, and right and wrong.
 

BigPete

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The golden rule has nothing to do with a diety. That is a place to start. There is also a strong rule of law with an unwavering application of justice. Just some ideas.



Either way, what I disclosed in my last post speaks to why 'we' need some kind of validation as if it is preconditioned. The 'we' certainly doesn't apply to everyone but considering of the 6+ billion people in the world over 4 billion follow some religion you could say the atheists are the minority group. We didn't talk about atheists for very long in my history of world religions class last year so I don't have any real numbers.



I recently classified myself as an agnostic atheist. That means I don't believe, but at the same time, don't really know or pretend to know. So there is room for doubt.
 

MassHavoc

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The golden rule has nothing to do with a diety. That is a place to start. There is also a strong rule of law with an unwavering application of justice. Just some ideas.



Either way, what I disclosed in my last post speaks to why 'we' need some kind of validation as if it is preconditioned. The 'we' certainly doesn't apply to everyone but considering of the 6+ billion people in the world over 4 billion follow some religion you could say the atheists are the minority group. We didn't talk about atheists for very long in my history of world religions class last year so I don't have any real numbers.



I recently classified myself as an agnostic atheist. That means I don't believe, but at the same time, don't really know or pretend to know. So there is room for doubt.



In my mind though, it almost has to be diety related, as they are an infallible image. Any other man created way is going to be wrought with the perception of deception or disenchantment. I think we are probably getting back to the religion thread instead of philosophy. But I guess to me, my religion is my philosophy. They way my mind works is all together way out there, and I've only ever put a little bit out there on these boards.
 

BigPete

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It would seem to me that autocrats and despots like Mubarak and Hussien and Hitler and Kim (Jong Il) deal those very same cards. I am perfect and your benevolent leader so listen to me or else.



In America we have a hard time with that, because almost all of us are taught that we can be better than the next guy. So we need less of that perfect idol because no one is perfect...except a diety....ah...I see where you are going with that!
 

MassHavoc

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It would seem to me that autocrats and despots like Mubarak and Hussien and Hitler and Kim (Jong Il) deal those very same cards. I am perfect and your benevolent leader so listen to me or else.



In America we have a hard time with that, because almost all of us are taught that we can be better than the next guy. So we need less of that perfect idol because no one is perfect...except a diety....ah...I see where you are going with that!



Yeah, that was basically where I was going with that, I couldn't tell if your last part was sarcastic or if like me you start typing and work things out in your head and then bang, on the screen it goes.
 

MassHavoc

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So I guess, philosophically, do we at least need the idea of a infallible being for order, even if no one believes in it? Do we need an image of perfect in order to strive for it. In order to help determine right from wrong?
 

BigPete

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So I guess, philosophically, do we at least need the idea of a infallible being for order, even if no one believes in it? Do we need an image of perfect in order to strive for it. In order to help determine right from wrong?

Well, I'm conflicted. I would rather have it be a series of rules and such that a LOT of people helped come up with. But that is basically the modern christian bible. I believe the Tora and Koran were written the same way, but obviously one is a lot older than the other two. Tora, bible, Koran, newer versions of the bible.



I just can't personally find faith in something that NO ONE has ever touched, tasted, seen, smelled, felt, etc. I would rather know that people came up with a set of rules and a code of morality than to think it came from a burning bush or holy ghost. Ya know?
 

MassHavoc

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Well, I'm conflicted. I would rather have it be a series of rules and such that a LOT of people helped come up with. But that is basically the modern christian bible. I believe the Tora and Koran were written the same way, but obviously one is a lot older than the other two. Tora, bible, Koran, newer versions of the bible.



I just can't personally find faith in something that NO ONE has ever touched, tasted, seen, smelled, felt, etc. I would rather know that people came up with a set of rules and a code of morality than to think it came from a burning bush or holy ghost. Ya know?



Yeah I get it, I'm the same way. It's weird, I just dont' know that I trust a set of rules that were made up by man, over a set of rules that was made up by man, but backed by infallibility. If it's one thing I do wish, honestly. I wish that their was proof of a god, such proof that everyone would be forced to believe and follow one religion. So much better... the only reason I don't say the converse of everyone having proof their is no god, is because no matter how much proof faith is still too strong, and it would get so much worse before it got any better.
 

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