pick an outfielder...

[Chris J]

Puig sucks

 

[CSF77]

I do not believe that Crawford fills the need anyways. Cubs need Baez and Bryant on the team and they need an Ace. Shark is not one. Z, Garza, Lilly, Dempster all of them were not Aces. They have not had a pitcher who was an ace sense Maddux left for the Braves. Wood was hurt and Prior never established himself as one before injury over came him. So if they need to add payroll it should be towards a legit investment like a Ace vs taking on other teams baggage.

 

[beckdawg]

Ask yourself what has Theo done here? Shed contract. He came he knowing that he would be building from the ground up. He admitted that he wanted out of Boston because he was forced to keep up with the Yankees and made some forced signings that were traded away to the Dodgers.

Ask your self why would Theo leave Boston an goto Chicago in the first place? Cubs are a smaller market. Ownership was reducing payroll. When Theo took over he stated they were building from the ground up.

In other words he left behind trying to buy a championship and embraced building one through development. That being said and seeing how he has not talked to Mike Maddux or Alomar Jr. For the manager job it tells me he doesn't walk the same path twice. Not to mention if he got burnt by it.

Now I understand your views on this but from what Theo has shown he doesn't look the type to jump back into old flings.

First of all, the cubs have requested permission to talk to Mike Maddux. It's recent so I assume you just hadn't seen it yet but I thought i'd point that out.

I feel like you're missing the point I'm making. You talk about buying a championship. Trading for Crawford when the dodgers eat $25-30 million is hardly buying a high ticket player. In the $13-14 mil/year range he's actually a fairly cheap outfielder for someone who is no longer eligible for arbitration. Now, if the cubs had anyone in AA/AAA at outfield this year I could see the case being made to not bring on someone like Crawford. But they don't. Almora best case scenario starts next year in AA. In 2015 he's probably skirting the AAA/mid season call up line Baez is this coming year if he plays well. In 2016 he maybe plays with the team out of camp. Soler is probably on a very similar timeline. That leaves you with an open slot with no real obvious takers. Possibly Lake if he continues to perform. Possibly Bryant if he's moved from 3B. But that's 3 years from now and if everything goes right.

Who's going to hit lead off for the cubs in 2014 and 2015? As I said, maybe Castro rebounds and can do it but then you still don't have a great option in the 2 hole. So, you ask why would Theo jump back into bed with Crawford and I answer thusly, #1 Crawford fills a giant need for the cubs(top of the order hitter as well as being a lefty), #2 you get a guy 3 years removed from an MVP caliber season. #3 assuming the dodgers eat what I've suggested he's going to be cheaper than other alternatives in FA #4 he presumably helps sagging attendance and #5 he's pretty much the definition of a buy low situation.

Also, let me throw another idea out. Let's say the cubs make this trade and get Crawford down to costing them $13 mil per/year. And let's say that Crawford rebounds a little playing in a very hitter friendly Wrigley but the cubs are still out of contention at the trade deadline. You don't think some team who's on the fringe of the wild card will over pay for him if he's some where between this year and 2010? Additionally, at $13 mil/year Crawford would be affordable for even small market teams. So, you could very easily rent him for 6 months, play him in a way that makes him favorable for a trade and then package him at next year's deadline for a substantially better group of players than you had to give up to get him. You could in theory turn one middling prospect like Black was for the Yankees into 2 top 10 prospects.

As I said, I don't see a down side. He fills a need and he'd be cheaper than the alternatives. He also has a chance to have a big turn around and become substantially more valuable.

 

[CSF77]

Crawford plays LF and they commited a small investment into Sweeney to play with Lake and Schierholtz in the OF.

The line up that I could see shaking out is:
Watkins 2B
Castro SS
Rizzo 1B
Olt 3B
Schierholtz RF
Lake LF
Sweeney CF
Castillo C

They would be looking at Szczur, Alanctra and Baez by the deadline. Most likely Bryant on top of that.

What they need to do is get a SP, decide if they go long term with Shark. Lock up Wood. Get a back up catcher.

 

[beckdawg]

Crawford plays LF and they commited a small investment into Sweeney to play with Lake and Schierholtz in the OF.

The line up that I could see shaking out is:
Watkins 2B
Castro SS
Rizzo 1B
Olt 3B
Schierholtz RF
Lake LF
Sweeney CF
Castillo C

They would be looking at Szczur, Alanctra and Baez by the deadline. Most likely Bryant on top of that.

What they need to do is get a SP, decide if they go long term with Shark. Lock up Wood. Get a back up catcher.

I agree they need pitching but that doesn't exclude the need for OF. I mean are we honestly saying you're comfortable going into a season with that OF? It's almost certainly one of the worst OF in the majors. Additionally, they very well could move Schierholtz in the off season. And even then they still don't have a quality lead off hitter.

Also, what's it cost them? They aren't going to give up a top 5 prospect. And of the top 10 really the only ones that make any sense from the cubs stand point are Olt and Vogelbach. In the top 20 you're talking about Candelario, Villanueva, and Szczur. Either of the first two alone should get a deal done. And you could possibly get it done with one of the last three. None of these guys are really going to make much of a difference on the cubs future plans other than possibly Szczur and most view him as a bench player at best.

So, I don't see the down side. At worst it costs them a minor prospect that really shouldn't have much of an impact on their future plans. And as I mentioned before, if Crawford turns it around you could possibly deal him for a pitching prospect who will matter in the future plans.

 

[CSF77]

I do not believe they will attempt to contend this year. You said that was the weakest OF well Sori, Dejesus and Schierholtz was not a hot topic either.

Now on trading Schierholtz. I believe that will happen but the question is when. If they move him early and trade Olt for Crawford. Then you are looking at Sweeney and Lake as the 4-5 hitters? That is taking a step back just to add Crawford? I doubt it seriously.

The only way I am trading Schierholtz early is if they decide to run Bryant out of S/T in RF or 3B then sure go for it. But I would rather go for Choo in RF at that point. Just me but he has a Solid OBA and hits lead off. Crawford is more of a 2 hitter.

Anyways what I expect them to do is keep it cheap this year and to piece together a line up.

Just with Szczur/Baez and Alcantra
Szczur CF
Alcantra 2B
Baez SS
Rizzo 1B
Olt 3B
Sweeney RF
Lake LF
Castillo C

Schierholtz and Castro traded for SP. That is not even getting into Bryant freeing Olt to package with Castro for a front line starter. You could move Bryant to 1B and send Rizzo and Castro. Baez to 3B and Bryant to 1B deal out Rizzo and Olt. There are a bunch of opertunity to add a arm with the depth they are getting into.

 

[patg006]

Yasiel Puig isnt that good

You're an idiot. I knew a Chris J 'masterpiece' was due......and you didn't disappoint with this doozie.

I pick Matt Kemp. Injuries and his absurd contract make him more realistic. Dont want Crawford, dont want Ethier, though he may come the cheapest, and Puig isn't going anywhere.

It really depends what tehy want and what the Dodgers plan to do. If the cubs ate all of Kemp's deal and only had to give up 'meh' (IMHO) prospects like Hendricks and Alcantara with Darwin Barney as a throw in.....If they wanted Almora I'd cough him up if they ate some salary.

If the dodgers turtle this offseason and no majorly spend, I can't see much deal happening. If they want to spend, Kemp may be the guy. He easily would be the best bat on the cubs.

 

[patg006]

Puig sucks

Just when I thought lightning couldn't strike twice, you make intellectuals tremble in fear with another slam dunk point.

 

[daddies3angels]

NONE

 

[dabears253313]

Not mad. But you have to remember that Theo got burnt signing him the first time so did you even think before posting?

Yes, I already knew about Crawford and Theo in Boston. That won't stop me from wanting a player that improves the team. He's a lot better than any outfielder on the Cubs current roster.

 

[Jntg4]

You're an idiot. I knew a Chris J 'masterpiece' was due......and you didn't disappoint with this doozie.

I pick Matt Kemp. Injuries and his absurd contract make him more realistic. Dont want Crawford, dont want Ethier, though he may come the cheapest, and Puig isn't going anywhere.

It really depends what tehy want and what the Dodgers plan to do. If the cubs ate all of Kemp's deal and only had to give up 'meh' (IMHO) prospects like Hendricks and Alcantara with Darwin Barney as a throw in.....If they wanted Almora I'd cough him up if they ate some salary.

If the dodgers turtle this offseason and no majorly spend, I can't see much deal happening. If they want to spend, Kemp may be the guy. He easily would be the best bat on the cubs.

Alcantara is a Top 100 type, he isn't "meh", though he very well could be pushed out of our future plans through the development of other prospects.

 

[TL1961]

I'll be honest, I've not seen him play a ton recently but I've always heard the impression on him was he was a very good defender. Also, looking at the metrics(UZR) he's well above average. Additionally, let you down from what? I mean if you're talking about him being a $20 mil/year player I agree. But at say $13 mil/year if they eat a bunch of his contract? The cubs don't have a lot of major league ready outfielders and $13 mil/year doesn't buy you much in FA. He gives the cubs a lefty they can use, speed which they really don't have a ton of and most importantly a lead off hitter. If they ate $25-30 mil of his contract I'd trade him for Olt straight up.

Not a fan of trading young prospects for aging, highly-paid players.

That approach has led to a 105 year drought.

How many times do we have to make the same mistake? The Milton Bradleys of the world are not going to win us a championship.

 

[CSF77]

Yes, I already knew about Crawford and Theo in Boston. That won't stop me from wanting a player that improves the team. He's a lot better than any outfielder on the Cubs current roster.

Szczur and Alcantra should be in AAA this year with Baez. They are going to have to cut players as it is just to fit them in.

That means Barney is short term. Baez and Castro both can not play SS. Szczur will be pushed into a OF with Lake, Sweeney and Schierholtz in it.

That doesn't even geting into Olt or Bryant.

Crawford would be a waste of resource.

If they were going to pull a deal for an OF at least go for a guy like Cargo then trade Schierholtz. That to me makes more sense as it lessens the load on Rizzo in the middle of the order and they can plug Olt in-between them until Baez is ready.

Even so these are wants. Needs are back up catcher, 5th starter and decide to extend Shark or trade him when he has 2 years left of control and extending Wood.

Those are issues needed to address before the team leaves S/T. Going out and talking about upgrades to filled positions should came after it.

 

[beckdawg]

I do not believe they will attempt to contend this year. You said that was the weakest OF well Sori, Dejesus and Schierholtz was not a hot topic either.

Now on trading Schierholtz. I believe that will happen but the question is when. If they move him early and trade Olt for Crawford. Then you are looking at Sweeney and Lake as the 4-5 hitters? That is taking a step back just to add Crawford? I doubt it seriously.

The only way I am trading Schierholtz early is if they decide to run Bryant out of S/T in RF or 3B then sure go for it. But I would rather go for Choo in RF at that point. Just me but he has a Solid OBA and hits lead off. Crawford is more of a 2 hitter.

Anyways what I expect them to do is keep it cheap this year and to piece together a line up.

Just with Szczur/Baez and Alcantra
Szczur CF
Alcantra 2B
Baez SS
Rizzo 1B
Olt 3B
Sweeney RF
Lake LF
Castillo C

Schierholtz and Castro traded for SP. That is not even getting into Bryant freeing Olt to package with Castro for a front line starter. You could move Bryant to 1B and send Rizzo and Castro. Baez to 3B and Bryant to 1B deal out Rizzo and Olt. There are a bunch of opertunity to add a arm with the depth they are getting into.

I'd be fine with them bringing in choo but the talks are him at $15-16 mil/year+. The numbers being throw around are $100 mil. Even if he gets 5 years $90 mil he's significantly more expensive than Crawford would be at 4 years $50-55 mil after the dodgers ate part of his contract. And sure it would cost you some form prospect but assuming they trade one of the 3B prospects it is a place they are especially deep.

Also, I'm just speculating here on what the dodgers and cubs would do/give up. Its possible no market for him develops and the dodgers would take a bag of balls to just get rid of him while eating a hefty chunk of his salary. All I'm saying is there is a very real chance he will come at a very good value. The only real thing that worries me about Crawford is health but in FA you sign is going to have the same worries.

 

[beckdawg]

Not a fan of trading young prospects for aging, highly-paid players.

That approach has led to a 105 year drought.

How many times do we have to make the same mistake? The Milton Bradleys of the world are not going to win us a championship.

We're not talking about a top 5 prospect. I'm suggesting guys who are going to struggle to make the majors. Now sure, you never know about a guy until he's there. But let's say one of the prospects the cubs have at 3B gets the job done. They aren't trading Baez and Bryant. That leaves Olt, Villenuva and Calendario. If you only trade one of those guys for him that leaves you 4 guys for organizational depth at 3B.

Now as for Crawford you say he's an aging high priced player. I've already addressed the dodgers eating almost half his remaining contract so he wont be high priced. Compare Crawford to say Jim Edmonds. The Cardinals traded for Edmonds when he was 30 and got 5 great years out of him. Obviously we don't know that Crawford will play to that level but it illustrates my point that trading prospects for vets can work out very well.

Also, we haven't even address the concept of renting him and trading him later. As I've said earlier, if Crawford rebounds in a hitter friendly Wrigley you're talking about him having considerably more value and with the dodgers already eating a lot of his contract he would be much easier for the cubs to move. If this were to happen, you probably can get a top 100 prospect plus more for him.

 

[CSF77]

They are not going to do it. Crawford by himself is not going to make this team good. Add to it why trade Sori's contract just to add Crawford? Makes little sense.

 

[JosMin]

Speed guys with chronic hamstring issues (Crawford and Kemp) -- I'll pass.

There's a 0% chance Puig is going anywhere, for obvious reasons.

Either, to me, is the most intriguing -- but let me follow that up by saying that he certainly isn't a foundational player. His contract is a huge overpay and he is what he is -- a nice role player who compliments a deep lineup well. He wouldn't offer any true lineup protection to help improve the chances of Rizzo, Castro, Castillo, etc.

It's apparent the Dodgers are willing to spend whatever it takes to keep their team a contender, so moving him is a byproduct of having an embarrassment of riches in the outfield. His slash line was on par (albeit a bit lower than normal) with what he's done over his career, but the drop in power is a concern for me. He's a solid defender and has postseason experience, but I'm honestly not sure the statistical upgrade over Schierholtz is worth giving up prospects and tying up all that money when you have Vitters and Szczur sniffing an audition for the upcoming year.

I guess it would really matter what the Dodgers would want in return for Ethier. I'd be apprehensive to give up something substantial for him because I don't consider him a cornerstone piece. A nice upgrade in right, sure, but what exactly is he worth giving up? If we were to go after him, I would anticipate that the Cubs would also look to make additional big moves during the offseason. However, that's contradictory to what has been floating around in the press since the season ended.

 

[beckdawg]

They are not going to do it. Crawford by himself is not going to make this team good. Add to it why trade Sori's contract just to add Crawford? Makes little sense.

Have you seen Soriano's OBP with the Cubs? That's the main reason he was traded. Obviously the money factors in as well but if he were a more productive player you wouldn't pay $13 mil to send him away this year. As for Crawford making the team good, perhaps. But you were previously arguing for Choo which I could make the exact same argument for. Choo isn't going to make the cubs a playoff team on his own so why even go after him then or Cargo for that matter? On top of that both will cost significantly more than Crawford. Choo is going to get $16+ mil/year most likely. Cargo would take a player of Shark and more's caliber.

If you don't like Crawford that's fine but it doesn't change the fact he gives the cubs something they need. You're not going to bat Sweeney in the #1 or #2 holes and I'd argue he really should be a #4 outfielder anyways which is evident by his pay because he's not making starter money. Maybe and it's a huge maybe Lake can hit that high in the order. Maybe and again it's a big maybe Castro rebounds to 2011 levels. If either or both of those things don't happen what do the cubs do? Are you going to bat Valbeuna with his sub .250 avg in the #1 or #2 hole? And more importantly, what are you going to do in those positions in 2015?

The cubs don't currently have an answer unless they get it out of both Lake and Castro. That means to fix it you're going to FA or trade anyways unless the cubs plan to throw away next year astros style. And if that's the case, then there's no reason to keep Shark this off season or any other player who's close to free agency. Even then, you're banking on Castro being the lead off hitter for the cubs over the next 3-4 years. Call me crazy but I'd be a bit worried about banking on a guy who's OBP has gotten worse every year he's been in the majors.

I just don't see this great cost you apparently do. If Lake and Castro don't both end up being lead off guys you're going to have to look for a guy like Crawford/Bourn/Victorino in FA anyways and the low end of pay for a player like that is $13 mil/year. Are we really that worried about giving up a guy like Christian Villenuva who's currently stuck behind at least 3 guys for 3B? If you're telling me they can trade Villenuva for a 24 year old Crawford like prospect or a #1/#2 starter then fine do that every day of the week. But that's not going to happen.

 

[CSF77]

Sori was paid to SLG and drive in RBI's. If he gave OBA also he would cost more than he did.

 

[beckdawg]

Sori was paid to SLG and drive in RBI's. If he gave OBA also he would cost more than he did.

When he signed with the cubs and slightly before he was almost always .330+ which isn't great but it's above average. This year with the cubs his OBP was .287. In 2012 he was .322 but if you go back to 2011 he was .289. You see the difference? At $18 mill/year of course they are going to try to move a player hitting that way.