Piniella's Words of Wisdom?

[SilenceS]

Here is one last article that shows 2008-2010. Cubs were 6 to last in spending in the whole league.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/draft/2010/08/bonus-expenditures-2008-10/

And if you think about it. It could have been even less spending if Hendry wasn't adamant about signing Shark and Szczur. He convinced both to choose baseball.

 

[czman]

Ricketts put down like over half of the total sale in cash. I don't think people realize how much money the Ricketts family has. They would never buy anything that they were not consistently in the black and for a good amount. Also, the value of the franchise has already increased by like 200 million.

Rickets put down 175 million in cash. The rest was financed. The value of the franchise is useless until he sells it.

 

[SilenceS]

Rickets put down 175 million in cash. The rest was financed. The value of the franchise is useless until he sells it.

I thought it was more, but Ill trust what you say. How does the value of the franchise not matter? Its increasing in value. It wont decrease. Its an investment that he will get a whole lot more back then he put into it. Im not saying its wrong. I just don't know where you were going with it.

 

[beckdawg]

Jim Hendry did his best. Was he perfect? No. Was he good? Yes. Do you know he had half the staff that Theo has now? That should tell you a lot about ownership. Jim Hendry pulled off some incredible trades. Go back and look at all his trades and tell me one guy that become anything special or good. He fleeced the Pirates for ARam and Lofton. Got Derrek Lee for Hee Sop Choi. Hendry was a really good trader and you can average at signing players. Would you not say the same about Theo? His FA signings blew up in Boston.

Rationalize it however you'd like, but he made the playoffs 3 years out of his last 9 and only had a winning record in half the seasons. At the end of the day that's his job. A lot of GM's have difficult working circumstances. He didn't win enough games. End of story.

Also, I couldn't find a listing of spending on farm systems for that far back but I did find this article which shows from 2007-2011(Hendry's last draft) that the cubs had around the league average in draft spending. As such, I find your statement that they were bottom 5 over that time period dubious. It also happens to be $1.1 mil/year more than the cardinals spent over that time period and look at the difference in the two farm systems.

 

[SilenceS]

Rationalize it however you'd like, but he made the playoffs 3 years out of his last 9 and only had a winning record in half the seasons. At the end of the day that's his job. A lot of GM's have difficult working circumstances. He didn't win enough games. End of story.

Also, I couldn't find a listing of spending on farm systems for that far back but I did find this article which shows from 2007-2011(Hendry's last draft) that the cubs had around the league average in draft spending. As such, I find your statement that they were bottom 5 over that time period dubious. It also happens to be $1.1 mil/year more than the cardinals spent over that time period and look at the difference in the two farm systems.

Lol rationalize it? You just don't like him so you rather throw out statements with no facts. And, are the Cardinals in the same market as the Cubs? Also, don't ever compare the Cardinals and how they were run to the Tribune Company and Sam fucking Zell! I will end this discussion because I can tell it will go nowhere. Cubs fans and letting hate over cloud reasonable judgment. Also, look how many teams won there division 3 times in the same amount as Hendry. He is in the top 3rd. You know a little bit better then average or poor. Whatever you choose to say.

 

[Shawon0Meter]

Cubs suck

 

[beckdawg]

Lol rationalize it? You just don't like him so you rather throw out statements with no facts. And, are the Cardinals in the same market as the Cubs? Also, don't ever compare the Cardinals and how they were run to the Tribune Company and Sam fucking Zell! I will end this discussion because I can tell it will go nowhere. Cubs fans and letting hate over cloud reasonable judgment. Also, look how many teams won there division 3 times in the same amount as Hendry. He is in the top 3rd. You know a little bit better then average or poor. Whatever you choose to say.

I'm fine with ending the conversation. But, I think it's pretty disrespectful to say that I didn't have any facts. I've cited my arguments with examples and sources not to mention refuted a lot of what you say I have wrong. Simply put, if Hendry were in the top 3rd of GMs in the league then he would have another GM job instead of the lessor job he has now.

My point to start this whole line of argument was that he's responsible for the majority of the players on the roster when Theo took over and those players were the reason the cubs won 71 games in 2012. It was these choices he made that have lead to a longer rebuild not ownership. There was very little in the farm system he drafted. There was very little of value at the major league level which he compiled. And there were a number of players who didn't perform up to what they were being paid which he chose to sign. Ownership clearly enabled him to bloat the payroll to drive up the sale price but ultimately he chose the players. Had he A) drafted better from 2002-2010 and B) chosen better players to sign we wouldn't be having this conversation because he'd probably still be the GM.

So, to say ownership is solely at fault for these decisions is distorting the truth to an agenda I don't quite understand. It's not a simple case of him making 1 bad mistake it was a series of bad choices which have lead to where we are.

 

[SilenceS]

I'm fine with ending the conversation. But, I think it's pretty disrespectful to say that I didn't have any facts. I've cited my arguments with examples and sources not to mention refuted a lot of what you say I have wrong. Simply put, if Hendry were in the top 3rd of GMs in the league then he would have another GM job instead of the lessor job he has now.

My point to start this whole line of argument was that he's responsible for the majority of the players on the roster when Theo took over and those players were the reason the cubs won 71 games in 2012. It was these choices he made that have lead to a longer rebuild not ownership. There was very little in the farm system he drafted. There was very little of value at the major league level which he compiled. And there were a number of players who didn't perform up to what they were being paid which he chose to sign. Ownership clearly enabled him to bloat the payroll to drive up the sale price but ultimately he chose the players. Had he A) drafted better from 2002-2010 and B) chosen better players to sign we wouldn't be having this conversation because he'd probably still be the GM.

So, to say ownership is solely at fault for these decisions is distorting the truth to an agenda I don't quite understand. It's not a simple case of him making 1 bad mistake it was a series of bad choices which have lead to where we are.

You stated one cite from bonus money from '07 to '11. It is vague because the reason the average came up was because of 2011 when Ricketts allotted Hendry the money to spend. You put to much blame on Hendry when he was told what he can do. Same with Theo right now. Its not Theo doesn't want to spend money. Ricketts is telling him he can not. The back loaded contracts came directly from the money side of the Cubs not Hendry. The farm also was not horrendous when he was around. He has a mid pack farm most of the years. Toward the end a couple of years. You ignore his trade history which is stellar. He had some bad contracts, but so did Theo. That's the reference I am making. Theo made some really bad signings in Boston. Do you believe he is bad GM? He was also allotted tons of money in the draft hence why they were always top 5 in spending. Theo lived for the over slot. I said in my original post it was time for Hendry to move on. But, I was respected the shit out of him for what he did for the Cubs. The reason Cubs fans expect a winner now is because of him. He walked in to a horrendous Cubs team that I think wwon 67 games in 2002 then they were within 5 outs of a world series the next year.

You fail to see that it was many factors involved in the Cubs problems. To simply point the finger at Hendry is extremely short sided. I also find it completely ridiculous that you think winning 3 division titles in 9 years is nothing. I think it was less than 10 teams that did that. Oh and the whole he would have a GM is also laughable. GM's go years in between jobs for various reasons. You don't know what he wants to do. Maybe he doesn't want to be a GM again. He has had health problems. Theo was about to be without a job if Ricketts wouldn't have shot his load to get him. Boston was going to fire him.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/base...mer-cubs-gm-jim-hendry-to-assist-cashman.html

Hendry wasn't this great, all mighty GM but he was much better then Cubs fans will ever give him credit for. Its the whole I don't remember what happened past 5 minutes ago.

 

[beckdawg]

Since you want facts, 13 teams have been to the playoffs 3 times over the same period. NYY(9), BOS(6), TAM(3), MIN(6), LAA(6), OAK(3), ATL(5), PHI(5), STL(6), CHI(3), LAD(4), ARI(3), SF(3). 7 more have appeared twice. DET(2), CHISOX(2), TEX(2), MIL(2), HOU(2), SD(2), COL(2). 12 of the 30 MLB teams have appeared in the playoffs 2 or 3 times over that period. That doesn't make Hendry top 3rd. It makes him average. However, what concerns me more is the fact that from 2002-2011 he averaged 80 wins a year.

You stated one cite from bonus money from '07 to '11. It is vague because the reason the average came up was because of 2011 when Ricketts allotted Hendry the money to spend.

If you exclude 2011, it's still $5.1 mil + which is higher than 10 teams. Other teams like the Cardinals, Reds, Giants, and Rangers have all produced vastly better results from their farm system on a similar spending budget. So, to sit here and say ownership was the cause of a crappy farm system is inaccurate.

The farm also was not horrendous when he was around. He has a mid pack farm most of the years.

Based on who? I can only assume you're talking about prospect rankings. I'm talking about the players they actually produced. During that time, Samardzija, Marshall, Marmol, Castro and Soto are the only prospects who've amounted to anything. That's 5 players out of 8 years. Baez and the rest of the 2011 class remain to be seen. They got maybe 2 core players(Samardzija and Castro). I don't see how you can rate that as middle of the pack. At the very least it's poor. Zambrano was the best home grown player during his tenure and he was in the cubs system prior to Hendry becoming GM.

You ignore his trade history which is stellar.

He made 2 great ones in my estimation, Lee and Ramirez. Had he not made these two deals he would have probably been fired 3-5 years sooner after Alou and Sosa left in 2005 because from 2005-his firing they have developed no offensive talent other than Soto who never turned into a core player. So, it's great he made these deals. But the fact is, once they passed their prime there was nothing left to build on because Hendry missed on a lot of his draft picks which goes back to my initial comment that he's left the current front office in the situation they are in.

Hendry wasn't this great, all mighty GM but he was much better then Cubs fans will ever give him credit for.

Pretty sure I've been consistently saying he was average to below average. How is a 80 win average over 10 years not average to below average? You've stated I throw out statements with no facts. The facts are, their farm system didn't produce major league talent. The facts are they lost more games than they won under him. You're speculating that it was ownership who caused the problems. I have not seen a single thing showing where the ownership set draft spending at the bottom 5 you suggest it was.

My initial statement that you jumped on was "Money isn't the issue. Bad personnel moves by Hendry put them into this position." So, if you want to sit here and mourn the loss of Hendry fine. But, he left the team devoid of talent and no matter how hard you try to spin it, he made many if not all of the decisions that lead to it.

 

[SilenceS]

Since you want facts, 13 teams have been to the playoffs 3 times over the same period. NYY(9), BOS(6), TAM(3), MIN(6), LAA(6), OAK(3), ATL(5), PHI(5), STL(6), CHI(3), LAD(4), ARI(3), SF(3). 7 more have appeared twice. DET(2), CHISOX(2), TEX(2), MIL(2), HOU(2), SD(2), COL(2). 12 of the 30 MLB teams have appeared in the playoffs 2 or 3 times over that period. That doesn't make Hendry top 3rd. It makes him average. However, what concerns me more is the fact that from 2002-2011 he averaged 80 wins a year.



If you exclude 2011, it's still $5.1 mil + which is higher than 10 teams. Other teams like the Cardinals, Reds, Giants, and Rangers have all produced vastly better results from their farm system on a similar spending budget. So, to sit here and say ownership was the cause of a crappy farm system is inaccurate.



Based on who? I can only assume you're talking about prospect rankings. I'm talking about the players they actually produced. During that time, Samardzija, Marshall, Marmol, Castro and Soto are the only prospects who've amounted to anything. That's 5 players out of 8 years. Baez and the rest of the 2011 class remain to be seen. They got maybe 2 core players(Samardzija and Castro). I don't see how you can rate that as middle of the pack. At the very least it's poor. Zambrano was the best home grown player during his tenure and he was in the cubs system prior to Hendry becoming GM.



He made 2 great ones in my estimation, Lee and Ramirez. Had he not made these two deals he would have probably been fired 3-5 years sooner after Alou and Sosa left in 2005 because from 2005-his firing they have developed no offensive talent other than Soto who never turned into a core player. So, it's great he made these deals. But the fact is, once they passed their prime there was nothing left to build on because Hendry missed on a lot of his draft picks which goes back to my initial comment that he's left the current front office in the situation they are in.



Pretty sure I've been consistently saying he was average to below average. How is a 80 win average over 10 years not average to below average? You've stated I throw out statements with no facts. The facts are, their farm system didn't produce major league talent. The facts are they lost more games than they won under him. You're speculating that it was ownership who caused the problems. I have not seen a single thing showing where the ownership set draft spending at the bottom 5 you suggest it was.

My initial statement that you jumped on was "Money isn't the issue. Bad personnel moves by Hendry put them into this position." So, if you want to sit here and mourn the loss of Hendry fine. But, he left the team devoid of talent and no matter how hard you try to spin it, he made many if not all of the decisions that lead to it.

 

[SilenceS]

Since you want facts, 13 teams have been to the playoffs 3 times over the same period. NYY(9), BOS(6), TAM(3), MIN(6), LAA(6), OAK(3), ATL(5), PHI(5), STL(6), CHI(3), LAD(4), ARI(3), SF(3). 7 more have appeared twice. DET(2), CHISOX(2), TEX(2), MIL(2), HOU(2), SD(2), COL(2). 12 of the 30 MLB teams have appeared in the playoffs 2 or 3 times over that period. That doesn't make Hendry top 3rd. It makes him average. However, what concerns me more is the fact that from 2002-2011 he averaged 80 wins a year.



If you exclude 2011, it's still $5.1 mil + which is higher than 10 teams. Other teams like the Cardinals, Reds, Giants, and Rangers have all produced vastly better results from their farm system on a similar spending budget. So, to sit here and say ownership was the cause of a crappy farm system is inaccurate.



Based on who? I can only assume you're talking about prospect rankings. I'm talking about the players they actually produced. During that time, Samardzija, Marshall, Marmol, Castro and Soto are the only prospects who've amounted to anything. That's 5 players out of 8 years. Baez and the rest of the 2011 class remain to be seen. They got maybe 2 core players(Samardzija and Castro). I don't see how you can rate that as middle of the pack. At the very least it's poor. Zambrano was the best home grown player during his tenure and he was in the cubs system prior to Hendry becoming GM.



He made 2 great ones in my estimation, Lee and Ramirez. Had he not made these two deals he would have probably been fired 3-5 years sooner after Alou and Sosa left in 2005 because from 2005-his firing they have developed no offensive talent other than Soto who never turned into a core player. So, it's great he made these deals. But the fact is, once they passed their prime there was nothing left to build on because Hendry missed on a lot of his draft picks which goes back to my initial comment that he's left the current front office in the situation they are in.



Pretty sure I've been consistently saying he was average to below average. How is a 80 win average over 10 years not average to below average? You've stated I throw out statements with no facts. The facts are, their farm system didn't produce major league talent. The facts are they lost more games than they won under him. You're speculating that it was ownership who caused the problems. I have not seen a single thing showing where the ownership set draft spending at the bottom 5 you suggest it was.

My initial statement that you jumped on was "Money isn't the issue. Bad personnel moves by Hendry put them into this position." So, if you want to sit here and mourn the loss of Hendry fine. But, he left the team devoid of talent and no matter how hard you try to spin it, he made many if not all of the decisions that lead to it.

You ignore so many thing it is comical! Jim Hendry must have killed your dog. You are revisionist history and have very little grasp of all baseball operations. So, when did 13 out 30 teams become average to below average? Im pretty sure it doesn't in any way you try to stretch it. Ive shown you numbers. You try to manipulate them because it doesn fit your agenda. I feel like you are not very old because your memory on trades are weak at best. I also feel you don't remember half the seasons that caused the down years. Hendry took a 67 win team in 2002 and was within 5 outs of the playoffs next year. Theo got a 70 plus win team and brought them most likely a 100 loss season and a 95 plus loss season. But, the farm is good. Well, 3 of the top 7 players are Hendry's. Baez, Alcantara, and Volgelbach. Rizzo was gotten with a Jim Hendry prospect. Castro and Castillo are Hendrys. Shark is Hendry. The Cubs just used Matt Garza for a haul from the Rangers. Who got him to Chicago? Junior Lake is Hendrys.

So, you paint a incomplete picture and spout off nonsensical things. Everything I provided shows Hendry to ABOVE average GM with one of the worst owners in the league. He also had to go through 2 Cubs sales. I even provided an article by Brian Cashman. He seems to like Hendry. But, what does he know. He is only the GM of the most successful franchise in history. Fuck his opinion, I am going to beat my chest and say Hendry sucks because gosh darn it I believe it.

 

[SilenceS]

Also, don't get me wrong. I do not dislike Theo. I want to see where this is going. I just don't understand the whole love fest when all he has done so far is build a farm through trades and some of his trades were not very successful. People act like Theo walks on water. He has to prove it like everyone else.

 

[beckdawg]

Hendry took a 67 win team in 2002 and was within 5 outs of the playoffs next year.

If you are going to accuse me of painting an incomplete picture you might be interested in knowing that Prior and Zambrano started 35 games with 10 wins in 2002. They started 62 in 2003 with 31 win. Coincidentally, the cubs won 21 more games in 2003. Both were products of MacPhail. In 2002 they had 759 runs against which dropped to 683 in 2003 with the vast majority of the difference being Prior and Zambrano.

So, you paint a incomplete picture and spout off nonsensical things. Everything I provided shows Hendry to ABOVE average GM with one of the worst owners in the league.

How is what I've said an incomplete picture? As the Cubs GM Hendry loss more games than he won. It's not revisionist history. It's what actually happened. Like wise, the lack of talent development is not something I made up. From roughly 2003 to 2009-2010 when Shark and Castro came around, Ramirez was the only young(under 27) core they developed and he was a trade not draft.

I'm not trying to be a dick about this but why are you even arguing this point? I'm not hiding great prospects that Hendry drafted. If you don't believe me, go look at the top 100 prospects from 2002-2011 and see who he drafted/signed. Or go look at the starters on his teams from 2002-2011 as most were over 30.. There's probably 15+ guys I could name who were drafted in the first 2 rounds alone under Hendry and didn't amount to even an average MLB player.

It's clear to see what happened. From 2003-2005 they were good and then their core group of vet broke down. They didn't have enough home grown talent fill the voids so they sucked a couple of years until 2007 when they went out and got Soriano and Lilly. In 2009-2010 those players start to break down and again they didn't have enough home grown talent so they sucked. This form of "building" isn't sustainable because after every break down your payroll has to skyrocket to fix your mistakes. It went from $90 million after the first crash in 2006 to nearly $150 million in 2010 and would have had to gone upwards of $160-170 to fix the team in 2010. The most successful division rival(STL) remained roughly flat at $90 million from 2005 through 2010 and this year is still only hitting $110 million.

That's the reason I have an issue with Hendry. He inherited some good players in Sosa, Wood, Zambrano, and Prior. When those players started to breakdown, his payroll was allowed to skyrocket because he lacked quality home grown players. And after that, their young major league talent still didn't improve which ultimately lead to the same breakdown all over again. To suggest ownership set him up to fail just isn't the case because his $80-90 mil payroll from 2003-2006 is more than half the teams this year and that's before it skyrocketed.

 

[SilenceS]

If you are going to accuse me of painting an incomplete picture you might be interested in knowing that Prior and Zambrano started 35 games with 10 wins in 2002. They started 62 in 2003 with 31 win. Coincidentally, the cubs won 21 more games in 2003. Both were products of MacPhail. In 2002 they had 759 runs against which dropped to 683 in 2003 with the vast majority of the difference being Prior and Zambrano.



How is what I've said an incomplete picture? As the Cubs GM Hendry loss more games than he won. It's not revisionist history. It's what actually happened. Like wise, the lack of talent development is not something I made up. From roughly 2003 to 2009-2010 when Shark and Castro came around, Ramirez was the only young(under 27) core they developed and he was a trade not draft.

I'm not trying to be a dick about this but why are you even arguing this point? I'm not hiding great prospects that Hendry drafted. If you don't believe me, go look at the top 100 prospects from 2002-2011 and see who he drafted/signed. Or go look at the starters on his teams from 2002-2011 as most were over 30.. There's probably 15+ guys I could name who were drafted in the first 2 rounds alone under Hendry and didn't amount to even an average MLB player.

It's clear to see what happened. From 2003-2005 they were good and then their core group of vet broke down. They didn't have enough home grown talent fill the voids so they sucked a couple of years until 2007 when they went out and got Soriano and Lilly. In 2009-2010 those players start to break down and again they didn't have enough home grown talent so they sucked. This form of "building" isn't sustainable because after every break down your payroll has to skyrocket to fix your mistakes. It went from $90 million after the first crash in 2006 to nearly $150 million in 2010 and would have had to gone upwards of $160-170 to fix the team in 2010. The most successful division rival(STL) remained roughly flat at $90 million from 2005 through 2010 and this year is still only hitting $110 million.

That's the reason I have an issue with Hendry. He inherited some good players in Sosa, Wood, Zambrano, and Prior. When those players started to breakdown, his payroll was allowed to skyrocket because he lacked quality home grown players. And after that, their young major league talent still didn't improve which ultimately lead to the same breakdown all over again. To suggest ownership set him up to fail just isn't the case because his $80-90 mil payroll from 2003-2006 is more than half the teams this year and that's before it skyrocketed.

You still fail to follow patterns. Do you even know what Hendry did for the Cubs before he became GM?

 

[SilenceS]

Also, one last question. You ignore a ton more points again but I want to know. Are you the type of guy that believes pitchers win/loss record matter. Also, what is Theo fails at what he is doing. Does he get the blame? Or is it Hoyer? Hoyer is the GM? So, who is making the decisions? Also, why did Theo state that they maxed out the allotted payroll this year? By your sayings, the GM's makes those decisions?

 

[Sunbiz1]

You still fail to follow patterns. Do you even know what Hendry did for the Cubs before he became GM?

Same thing he's currently doing for the Yankees under a different title...what's the point here?.

 

[dabears253313]

An excerpt from yesterday's Trib article:

"Is there a built-in obstacle to the Cubs winning or is it just coincidence?. Piniella believes the biggest obstacle he faced was the common perception that ultimately something would go wrong simply b/c they were the Cubs, making players uptight come October".

Agree or disagree?.

Piniella on Cub fans:

"You know, you win 3 or 4 games and you're going to win the pennant. You lose 3 or 4 and the season's over".

Reading into the above, he's basically saying the baseball IQ of fans is in the double-digit range.

Agree or disagree?.

Piniella is right but it's the same for every sports team.

 

[beckdawg]

You still fail to follow patterns. Do you even know what Hendry did for the Cubs before he became GM?

Let's try this approach. I'll ask you some questions and you give me some answers since you don't like what I have to say and since apparently you have answers I don't understand.

Did Hendry lose more games than he won as a GM?
Does an above average GM win more games than he loses?
How many titles did he win?
Are GM's generally judged on how much they win specifically titles?
Were the cubs in the top 5-10 in spending every year during his time as GM?
How many core players play did he draft and have reach the major leagues with the cubs during his time as GM?
Was the lack of young talent in 2006 and 2009 the reason the cubs took several years to rebuild rather than having continued success like their large market rivals in Boston and NY?
Did the cubs hold a fire sale like the Marlins after winning their winning years?
Were the cubs reliant on aging vet FAs in order to win?
Do teams that rely on aging vets general last for more than a couple of years?
Did Hendry choose the FAs they brought in?
Are teams that build a young core of players they draft more likely to have sustained success?
Did he draft Bobby Brownlie with the 21st pick, Luke Hagerty with the 32nd pick, Chadd Blasko with the 36th pick, Matthew Clanton with the 38th pick, Ryan Harvey with the 6th pick, Mark Pawelek with the 20th pick, Tyler Colvin with the 13th pick, Josh Vitters with the 3rd pick, Ryan Flaherty with the 41st pick, Brett Jackson with the 31st pick, Josh Donaldson with the 48th pick, Javier Báez with the 9th pick, Pierce Johnson with the 43 pick, Paul Blackburn with the 56th pick, Hayden Simpson with the 16th pick and Andrew Cashner 19th pick?
Have any of these 1st round picks made an impact with the cubs yet?
Do you usually expect to get impact players out of 1st round pick?
Have his second round picks become impact players?
Have his third or fourth round picks become impact players?


We can sit here and speculate on ownership's involvement in bad decisions until the end of time. To me it's irrelevant. Hendry drafted the players and ultimately that's what stopped the cubs from sustained success. Even if he had less of a draft budget than say Tampa, you can still get solid role players. For example, the cardinals got guys like Allen Craig in the 8th round and while he's not a super star he's a solid major league contributor. Hendy didn't even have that.

 

[beckdawg]

Tell you what, why don't we leave it at this. If you want to believe Hendry is a good GM fine. But there are several legitimate reason people view him as an average to below average GM and just because you don't share that opinion doesn't make it false. At the end of the day GM's are judged based on their record and Hendry lost more games than he won. That's really all I need to say to have a legitimate argument. Any GM will be fired if he loses more games than he wins and rightly so.

 

[SilenceS]

Tell you what, why don't we leave it at this. If you want to believe Hendry is a good GM fine. But there are several legitimate reason people view him as an average to below average GM and just because you don't share that opinion doesn't make it false. At the end of the day GM's are judged based on their record and Hendry lost more games than he won. That's really all I need to say to have a legitimate argument. Any GM will be fired if he loses more games than he wins and rightly so.

Hoyer better start winning some games then