Ray Allen: New 3pt Record holder

[houheffna]

As great as those Indiana Pacers teams were, the 2008 Boston Celtics were better equipped to win a championship than any of them.

Ray Allen has a prettier jump shot than Reggie Miller did, but I think Miller was more accurate in his precision. Ray Allen was the much more athletic scorer, but Reggie Miller was a much more tenacious defender.

And perhaps the most important of all--- Reggie Miller was one of the most clutch players ever. Ray Allen had some pretty terrible playoff series because of cold streaks.

Both of these guys were great team leaders once upon a time. Ray Allen led the Bucks to the ECF with Glenn "Big Dog" Robinson and Sam Cassell (in a pretty terrible Eastern Conference). And Reggie Miller led a team with Rik Smits, Dale Davis, Antonio Davis, Chris Mullin, Mark Jackson, Travis Best, and Jalen Rose (coached by Larry Bird) and nearly knocked out the 1998 Jordan-led Chicago Bulls in a 7-game war. Then Reggie got back to the Finals and took the 2000 L.A. Lakers to 6.

Both of these guys are remarkable players, but I would take Reggie over Ray Allen (both at their best). I'll even take 2004 Reggie Miller over 2011 Ray Allen.

I don't know what "more accurate in his precision" means...could you explain that? Neither were any good in their prime defensively...Allen now is better defensively than Miller ever was, because of the system he bought into. Your last sentence is questionable. You would take a guy contemplating retirement over an allstar?

The guy that reminds me of Miller's game the most now is Kevin Martin. All I remember is Jordan saying playing against Miller was like playing your sister, all elbows and knees...lol. Funniest quote I think I have ever heard from Jordan...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I don't know what "more accurate in his precision" means...could you explain that? Neither were any good in their prime defensively...Allen now is better defensively than Miller ever was, because of the system he bought into. Your last sentence is questionable. You would take a guy contemplating retirement over an allstar?

The guy that reminds me of Miller's game the most now is Kevin Martin. All I remember is Jordan saying playing against Miller was like playing your sister, all elbows and knees...lol. Funniest quote I think I have ever heard from Jordan...

Reggie Miller hit a lot more three's while moving while Ray Allen usually comes to a complete stop with a quicker and more picture-perfect release than Miller. I think Reggie just had more of a knack for placing the ball in the middle of the cylinder (that's what I meant by precision). Allen depends more upon getting his feet squared up and body balanced than Miller did. But obviously... both guys are excellent shooters. It's extremely hard to take one over the other. I would take Ray Allen in a three-point contest but I would take Miller in most exhibition games...

You might be right about Ray Allen being a better defender right now than either have been throughout both of their careers. But Allen, in his prime, wasn't very good at that end at all and got punked everytime he would need to guard guys like Iverson, Kobe, T-Mac, or McGrady. Obviously, neither was Miller.

I would prefer Miller's defense if they were both playing in the 90's with the hand-checking and pushing off. Miller couldn't get away with half of the shit nowadays that he used to do back then with no calls.

Rip Hamilton is another guy who was a lot like Miller in his offensive style. He was actually the guy Miller walked up to an hugged in his last game in 2005 where he scored 27 points on like 11-of-19 shooting. He said something to him like 'do this for as long as you can' and patted him on the back.

The reason I said would take 2004 Miller over 2011 Allen is because I really don't think either is a worthy All-Star (anymore) and because I consider Miller to be more clutch. But I will grant you that the last sentence is a little questionable because Allen is in great shape still for a 35 year-old.

 

[FirstTimer]

Between Allen and Miller it's really close.

I always viewed Allen in his prime as a better all around player than Miller. Slightly better on defense and gave you more in rebounding and ballhandling/assists.

You really can't go wrong either way.

This whole excuse or explanation of "Miller was more precise" is crap IMO. It's not provable and it really doesn't matter, especially since Allen has a better career 3pt %....barely.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

miller vs. knicks....sick

 

[houheffna]

Reggie Miller hit a lot more three's while moving while Ray Allen usually comes to a complete stop with a quicker and more picture-perfect release than Miller. I think Reggie just had more of a knack for placing the ball in the middle of the cylinder (that's what I meant by precision). Allen depends more upon getting his feet squared up and body balanced than Miller did. But obviously... both guys are excellent shooters. It's extremely hard to take one over the other. I would take Ray Allen in a three-point contest but I would take Miller in most exhibition games...

You might be right about Ray Allen being a better defender right now than either have been throughout both of their careers. But Allen, in his prime, wasn't very good at that end at all and got punked everytime he would need to guard guys like Iverson, Kobe, T-Mac, or McGrady. Obviously, neither was Miller.

I would prefer Miller's defense if they were both playing in the 90's with the hand-checking and pushing off. Miller couldn't get away with half of the shit nowadays that he used to do back then with no calls.

Rip Hamilton is another guy who was a lot like Miller in his offensive style. He was actually the guy Miller walked up to an hugged in his last game in 2005 where he scored 27 points on like 11-of-19 shooting. He said something to him like 'do this for as long as you can' and patted him on the back.

The reason I said would take 2004 Miller over 2011 Allen is because I really don't think either is a worthy All-Star (anymore) and because I consider Miller to be more clutch. But I will grant you that the last sentence is a little questionable because Allen is in great shape still for a 35 year-old.

I think you are over analyzing with that precision stuff...who says that anyway? As far as clutch goes, I am not a big fan of clutch being a big trait for rating players. Either the player wants the ball in those moments or they don't. That is a character issue more than anything. That is not physical. Nothing about Ray Allen suggests to me that he wants the ball any less than Miller. He hit big shots against the Bulls in the playoffs.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I think you are over analyzing with that precision stuff...who says that anyway? As far as clutch goes, I am not a big fan of clutch being a big trait for rating players. Either the player wants the ball in those moments or they don't. That is a character issue more than anything. That is not physical. Nothing about Ray Allen suggests to me that he wants the ball any less than Miller. He hit big shots against the Bulls in the playoffs.

Yeah, he pretty much made it seem like Ben Gordon was invisible on defense. My main knock on Ray Allen in comparison to Miller is that he has had some UGLY cold streaks in some playoff series over the past couple of years...

 

[Capt. Serious]

LOL at the jealous people hating on the Celtics.

Haters gonna hate.

 

[FirstTimer]

Yeah, he pretty much made it seem like Ben Gordon was invisible on defense. My main knock on Ray Allen in comparison to Miller is that he has had some UGLY cold streaks in some playoff series over the past couple of years...

I guess?

Career playoff averages:

Miller 20.6 PPG 2.9 RPG 2.5 APG .449 FG, .390 3PT, .893 FT

Allen 19.5 PPG 4.0 RPG 3.4 APG .447 FG, .402 3PT .896FT

For this perception of yours that Allen has had some really bad cold streaks(I'm assuming you are mainly referring to the Celtics first title run) He still shot .396 from 3 point range for the playoffs that season.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I guess?

Career playoff averages:

Miller 20.6 PPG 2.9 RPG 2.5 APG .449 FG, .390 3PT, .893 FT

Allen 19.5 PPG 4.0 RPG 3.4 APG .447 FG, .402 3PT .896FT

For this perception of yours that Allen has had some really bad cold streaks(I'm assuming you are mainly referring to the Celtics first title run) He still shot .396 from 3 point range for the playoffs that season.

Well, the year after that, Ray Allen had an awful shooting series against the Orlando Magic in the 2nd round in a 4-3 series loss:

1-7, 2-7, 0-5, 0-5, 2-5, 0-7, 3-6 (total: 8-of-42)

And in the 2010 NBA Finals, I remember after that Game 2 in LA where he made 8 three-pointers, he didn't make another three until late in Game 7 of that series.

But he has had some clutch playoff moments, too. None as spectular as Reggie Miller's heroics against the Knicks... but the Bulls' one was pretty nice.

Anyway, look at the three-point field goals made leaders. Jason Kidd is 3rd on that list... Rashard Lewis is 7th. Jason Terry is 8th. Paul Pierce and Tim Hardaway are tied at 11th and Mike Bibby is 16th. I don't think this record is so illustrious... Guys like Steve Kerr and Craig Hodges are arguably better shooters than Ray or Reggie.

 

[Diddy1122]

Both of these guys are remarkable players, but I would take Reggie over Ray Allen (both at their best). I'll even take 2004 Reggie Miller over 2011 Ray Allen.

I'd take Ray over Miller in almost any situation. I love Reggie but Allen was 10x's more athletic, a better ball handler, & overall better player in his prime than Reggie. However, if it's a last second shot, I'd take Miller over Ray. Other than MJ, Miller is the most clutch player I've ever seen play in the NBA.

 

[FirstTimer]

Jason Kidd is 3rd on that list... Rashard Lewis is 7th. Jason Terry is 8th.

Look at in relative terms. None of those guys are even close to the record. Jason jason Kidd is 3rd is misleading to the fact that he's WAY behind the top 2 and it's really just trivial lame knowledge that he's #3.

Guys like Steve Kerr and Craig Hodges are arguably better shooters than Ray or Reggie.

No.

Just no.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Look at in relative terms. None of those guys are even close to the record. Jason jason Kidd is 3rd is misleading to the fact that he's WAY behind the top 2 and it's really just trivial lame knowledge that he's #3.


No.

Just no.

You're wrong about this. These were guys who could shoot the lights out. The reason they didn't play as many minutes is because guys like Miller, Allen, Kidd, Hardaway, etc. could do more on the basketball court and weren't as big of a defensive liability.

 

[pinkizdead]

i think this is all that needs to be said.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sportsprose/0608_reggie_miller_1372452_flynet_exc.jpg

 

[FirstTimer]

You're wrong about this. These were guys who could shoot the lights out.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say if Miller and Allen played limited limits and were consistently fresh their shooting percentages would be pretty substantially higher.

The reason they didn't play as many minutes is because guys like Miller, Allen, Kidd, Hardaway, etc. could do more on the basketball court and weren't as big of a defensive liability.

Way to miss the forest from the trees.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say if Miller and Allen played limited limits and were consistently fresh their shooting percentages would be pretty substantially higher.



Way to miss the forest from the trees.

It's not like guys like Steve Kerr wasn't constantly being watched by the defense at any time he was out on the floor. It's hard to say somebody with a 45% career three-point percentage isn't as good of a shooter as one who shoots just under 40% for their career. These guys all have a large sample size of three pointers in the league.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but you can't just say 'FACT: Ray Allen/Reggie Miller > Steve Kerr at shooting.'

 

[Crystallas]

Sorry to stir things up, but at straight up 3pt shooting?

Craig Hodges > Steve Kerr

Hell, Craig is recognized as one of the best shooting teachers in the league. A guru in the likes of Satriani being the ultimate teacher of guitar or whatever fancy fill-in-the-blank mentor that pops into your head.

Unlike Miller, Allen or even Kerr, Hodges wasn't much of anything other than a long distance shooter. If it weren't for his backpocket move at the white house, as well as other Nation of Islam locker room incidents that made players uncomfortable, Hodges would have been used more and played 3-5 more seasons in the NBA.

 

[pinkizdead]

Sorry to stir things up, but at straight up 3pt shooting?

Craig Hodges > Steve Kerr

Hell, Craig is recognized as one of the best shooting teachers in the league. A guru in the likes of Satriani being the ultimate teacher of guitar or whatever fancy fill-in-the-blank mentor that pops into your head.

Unlike Miller, Allen or even Kerr, Hodges wasn't much of anything other than a long distance shooter. If it weren't for his backpocket move at the white house, as well as other Nation of Islam locker room incidents that made players uncomfortable, Hodges would have been used more and played 3-5 more seasons in the NBA.

it's moments like these that i wish bullseye fred was on the forums more often.

 

[FirstTimer]

It's not like guys like Steve Kerr wasn't constantly being watched by the defense at any time he was out on the floor.

Absolutley nothing to do with what I said.

It's hard to say somebody with a 45% career three-point percentage isn't as good of a shooter as one who shoots just under 40% for their career.

No it's not.

Watch.

Ray Allen and Reggie Miller are better shooters than Steve Kerr.

 

[Anytime23]

Is Feb the official pissing match month?

 

[FirstTimer]

If you are talking about taking a wide-open shot, then perhaps. But they are allowed to play defense in the NBA, and it was much easier to defend Kerr and Hodges than Allen and Miller. If we are playing this game, then I'd say that Jon Sundvold and Mike Iuzzolini were arguably better shooters than Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant.

Knights of Columbus free throw champions.