Shams: Bulls, Clippers to be interested in Lonzo Ball

[knoxville7]

How does ball fit into this conversation? Literally talking about a lillard trade lol….

suuuuuuurrrrreeeee

I’d take ball Lavine Vuc Pwill over Lavine and Lillard alone

go back and re read and it should be easy to figure out. I initially said I’d rather have ball Lavine PWill and Vuc over just Lillard and Lavine. You then said that was an interesting take because it’s the same team that just finished under .500. Problem with your statement is it’s not the same team. Ball was not a bull

 

[Enasic]

interesting take considering the finals is between Milwaukee and Phoenix right now. Neither has more than 2 all stars. The notion you have to have 3 superstars to win a title is false

CP3 and Giannis are two of the truly elite players in the league and future HoFers. Bulls don’t have that type of player. Add in booker and Ayton for Phx they have much more star power than the bulls.

 

[Enasic]

go back and re read and it should be easy to figure out. I initially said I’d rather have ball Lavine PWill and Vuc over just Lillard and Lavine. You then said that was an interesting take because it’s the same team that just finished under .500. Problem with your statement is it’s not the same team. Ball was not a bull

Sorry misread.

 

[Scoot26]

interesting take considering the finals is between Milwaukee and Phoenix right now. Neither has more than 2 all stars. The notion you have to have 3 superstars to win a title is false

At this point, the Bulls aren't going to be title contenders anytime soon anyways unless they make a big splash somewhere, but at the moment I don't think they have the assets to do so. I think the intial goal here will simply be to make the playoffs first, then see what they can make happen. If it's anything like Denver's rise, we may see a surprise player come out of seemingly no where and not require top 3 picks to get us somewhere.

You don't need 3 superstars to win a title, though certainly makes your odds great. But I also don't see that happening to the Bulls any time soon.

The top 3 teams in the East this season all had superstars. The Hawks may have one in Trae Young, but they gotta get some help in there if they wanna become a force.

The top 2 teams in the West this season did not have superstars (Paul is a former superstar, but his age and decline in numbers has in my opinion taken away his superstar status, still a great experienced player, but not doing what he could 5-10 years ago).

Personally, if they stay healthy (which is a big if with Kyrie), I don't see how the Nets don't basically own the East the next few seasons.

 

[Enasic]

Paul is certainly a superstar even now. His impact on the game is upper echelon.

Generally to win a title you need a top 5 player and at least 1 or 2 additional all-star players. That’s been the formula for a long time

 

[Scoot26]

Paul is certainly a superstar even now. His impact on the game is upper echelon.

Generally to win a title you need a top 5 player and at least 1 or 2 additional all-star players. That’s been the formula for a long time

I'm sure you and I have different definition of what a superstar is. I have my own criteria for who qualifies. I don't agree with him being a super anymore.

I don't know about Top 5, but Top 10, plus another star or two to win a title. There are exceptions, but they are rare. The 2014 Spurs and 2004 Pistons are the last two teams to win titles without a super. Before someone tells me Kawhi for 2014, he wasn't on a superstar level that particular season. He certainly played like one in the Finals themselves, but Kawhi, the superstar, had yet to actually arrive yet. Duncan was an old man by this point.

 

[Enasic]

I'm sure you and I have different definition of what a superstar is. I have my own criteria for who qualifies. I don't agree with him being a super anymore.

I don't know about Top 5, but Top 10, plus another star or two to win a title. There are exceptions, but they are rare. The 2014 Spurs and 2004 Pistons are the last two teams to win titles without a super. Before someone tells me Kawhi for 2014, he wasn't on a superstar level that particular season. He certainly played like one in the Finals themselves, but Kawhi, the superstar, had yet to actually arrive yet. Duncan was an old man by this point.

I mean Paul propelled the suns to an entire different level. I don’t think you can do that without being an elite player. Winning is the most important stat of them all. They were 5 games under .500 last season and 20 games above this year. Granted, ayton missed some time last season but I don’t think that’s the main difference in record.

 

[Enasic]

Suns were 20-18 with ayton in the lineup last season.

 

[knoxville7]

I mean Paul propelled the suns to an entire different level. I don’t think you can do that without being an elite player. Winning is the most important stat of them all. They were 5 games under .500 last season and 20 games above this year. Granted, ayton missed some time last season but I don’t think that’s the main difference in record.

that doesn’t mean he’s a super star. If the bulls go out and sign a PG this offseason, then finish with a record like 10-15 over .500, would that make whomstever the PG is a super star by default?

 

[Scoot26]

I mean Paul propelled the suns to an entire different level. I don’t think you can do that without being an elite player. Winning is the most important stat of them all. They were 5 games under .500 last season and 20 games above this year. Granted, ayton missed some time last season but I don’t think that’s the main difference in record.

I think certain players can propel a team to a new level, even 2nd tier stars can do that. There's plenty of teams that finish top in a conference without superstars. Hell this season there was a team that won one more game than the Suns and had the best record in the NBA, and they lost in the 2nd round.

To me the Suns are a well rounded team, and no one can deny they've lucked into opponents suffering major injury issues until facing the Bucks in the Finals. Chris Paul, great player, but I feel at this point he's declined from what he once was, but his experience is helping keep him afloat as a 2nd tier star.

 

[Enasic]

that doesn’t mean he’s a super star. If the bulls go out and sign a PG this offseason, then finish with a record like 10-15 over .500, would that make whomstever the PG is a super star by default?

Depends. Is that player a first ballot HoFer and top 5 all time at their position? Do the Bulls also make the finals in this hypothetical?

 

[Enasic]

I think certain players can propel a team to a new level, even 2nd tier stars can do that. There's plenty of teams that finish top in a conference without superstars. Hell this season there was a team that won one more game than the Suns and had the best record in the NBA, and they lost in the 2nd round.

To me the Suns are a well rounded team, and no one can deny they've lucked into opponents suffering major injury issues until facing the Bucks in the Finals. Chris Paul, great player, but I feel at this point he's declined from what he once was, but his experience is helping keep him afloat as a 2nd tier star.

I guess semantics plays into it. I’d still consider Paul a star player even at this juncture. Given his performance, intangibles, and overall impact. If others disagree, that’s fine. For reference, his PER and WS/48 numbers and overall defense are on par and better than both of the Bulls all-stars. So whether he’s a superstar or just a “ star”, I don’t really care to debate. He’s really fucking good and got that Suns team to the finals. GS also received a lot of breaks during their championship runs. It is what it is

 

[knoxville7]

I wouldn’t call facing lebron in the finals every year… “catching a break”

 

[Scoot26]

I guess semantics plays into it. I’d still consider Paul a star player even at this juncture. Given his performance, intangibles, and overall impact. If others disagree, that’s fine. For reference, his PER and WS/48 numbers and overall defense are on par and better than both of the Bulls all-stars. So whether he’s a superstar or just an all star, I don’t really care to debate. He’s really fucking good and got that Suns team to the finals. GS also received a lot of breaks during their championship runs. It is what it is

I agree, as I said previously, we disagree on how we rate superstars. Paul absolutely is a star still, I just don't rate him at that superstar level anymore, but I have my own subjective criteria for labeling guys superstars, plus a limit on how many players can be a superstar at one time (which in my book is 10).

All teams get breaks to some degree, usually how one ends up winning a ship. Generally you don't get 3 straight rounds of breaks though. As I said before, you play who you play. Milwaukee got some breaks as well obviously. Luckily we haven't had any real serious injuries in the Finals here to star players.

Also wouldn't entirely argue GSW got a bunch of consecutive breaks in the same playoffs. Sure they got breaks in various rounds, including playing a decimated Cleveland team in 2015. Leonard and Chris Paul got hurt in WCFs vs GSW, but at least the Spurs one, solid shot they beat them anyways. Houston was up 3-2 on GSW in 2018 when Paul got hurt, so who knows if Houston pulls it off with Paul or not. Its an interesting what if.

 

[Enasic]

I wouldn’t call facing lebron in the finals every year… “catching a break”

Meant more breaks out west. Never easy facing Bron.

 

[Enasic]

I agree, as I said previously, we disagree on how we rate superstars. Paul absolutely is a star still, I just don't rate him at that superstar level anymore, but I have my own subjective criteria for labeling guys superstars, plus a limit on how many players can be a superstar at one time (which in my book is 10).

All teams get breaks to some degree, usually how one ends up winning a ship. Generally you don't get 3 straight rounds of breaks though. As I said before, you play who you play. Milwaukee got some breaks as well obviously. Luckily we haven't had any real serious injuries in the Finals here to star players.

Also wouldn't entirely argue GSW got a bunch of consecutive breaks in the same playoffs. Sure they got breaks in various rounds, including playing a decimated Cleveland team in 2015. Leonard and Chris Paul got hurt in WCFs vs GSW, but at least the Spurs one, solid shot they beat them anyways. Houston was up 3-2 on GSW in 2018 when Paul got hurt, so who knows if Houston pulls it off with Paul or not. Its an interesting what if.

All good points. I’d say Paul is a fringe superstar even at this point of his career. What he’s doing at 35 is incredible and he’s still very comfortably a top 15-20 player today. Also, some guys just have so much value outside the stat sheet (which is still very good all around for Paul).

Also, never said GSW got a bunch of consecutive breaks in the same playoffs. But they definitely got a few really big ones during their runs.

 

[knoxville7]

All good points. I’d say Paul is a fringe superstar even at this point of his career. What he’s doing at 35 is incredible and he’s still very comfortably a top 15-20 player today. Also, some guys just have so much value outside the stat sheet (which is still very good all around for Paul).

Also, never said GSW got a bunch of consecutive breaks in the same playoffs. But they definitely got a few really big ones during their runs.

paul comes in at 26th in PER so you’re not far off. The difference is scoot doesn’t think there are 26 superstars in the league, and he’s right. And Paul is no longer one of them. Hell of a good player, but not on the super star level.

superstar caliber guys today are
Giannis
Luka
Steph curry
Lebron(although fading)
Jokic
Embiid
Kawhi
Durant

with trae young and Zion knocking on that door

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

paul comes in at 26th in PER so you’re not far off. The difference is scoot doesn’t think there are 26 superstars in the league, and he’s right. And Paul is no longer one of them. Hell of a good player, but not on the super star level.

superstar caliber guys today are
Giannis
Luka
Steph curry
Lebron(although fading)
Jokic
Embiid
Kawhi
Durant

with trae young and Zion knocking on that door

Devin Booker is also knocking on that door.

 

[knoxville7]

Devin Booker is also knocking on that door.

ehhh maybe, but I don’t see it yet. I put Booker and Lavine kinda in the same category of that next tier of guys

 

[Enasic]

paul comes in at 26th in PER so you’re not far off. The difference is scoot doesn’t think there are 26 superstars in the league, and he’s right. And Paul is no longer one of them. Hell of a good player, but not on the super star level.

superstar caliber guys today are
Giannis
Luka
Steph curry
Lebron(although fading)
Jokic
Embiid
Kawhi
Durant

with trae young and Zion knocking on that door

That’s perfectly fair. And yes, I agree there’s not 26 superstars in the league.