Shark to Arizona being discussed

WindyCity

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@Buster_ESPN: There is an expectation that the Jeff Samardzija/Arizona trade talks will continue. Cubs reaching point where they need a decision on him.

I wonder what they could get back in return?
 

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Skaggs and/or Bradley :pray:
 

CSF77

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D-Backs, Cubs Expected To Discuss Samardzija Trade
By Charlie Wilmoth [November 4 at 6:07pm CST]
The Cubs will likely continue to discuss trading starting pitcher Jeff Samardzija to the Diamondbacks, ESPN's Buster Olney tweets. It now appears unlikely that the Cubs will sign Samardzija to an extension, so with only two years remaining before he hits free agency, it makes sense that a rebuilding team might look to trade him.

After pitching in relief in 2011, Samardzija has emerged as a solid starter in the past two seasons, posting a 4.34 ERA in 2013, but with 9.0 K/9 and 3.3 BB/9. If the Cubs were to deal him, he ought to be able to return good young talent. The Cubs did consider dealing him at last year's trading deadline, but they were reportedly asking a lot. CBS Sports' Jon Heyman wrote then that if the Cubs were unable to sign Samardzija in the offseason, a winter trade would be likely.
 

CSF77

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Want Skaggs. Don't care what is the add in.
 

beckdawg

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I'd have to assume it's at least one of Archie Bradley or Tyler Skaggs. I would be surprised if it's both. But, I think both would be a good starting point for talks. If they are together that's all the more they really need to do from the cubs stand point though you could throw in parts as needed to get the job done. If it's only 1 of the two I think you need another decent prospect probably top 100 or maybe fringe top 100.
 

CSF77

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I'd have to assume it's at least one of Archie Bradley or Tyler Skaggs. I would be surprised if it's both. But, I think both would be a good starting point for talks. If they are together that's all the more they really need to do from the cubs stand point though you could throw in parts as needed to get the job done. If it's only 1 of the two I think you need another decent prospect probably top 100 or maybe fringe top 100.

Skaggs is ML ready. Bradley will be at AAA. The deal would have to be centered around Skaggs IMO.

Now if they pulled that deal; today the Cubs did not make a qualifying offer to any of their F/A's. Now Scott Baker I could see them offering him a deal to replace Shark in the rotation and then have Skaggs replace Rusin in the rotation. To be honest Baker looked pretty good in his stint and he was by no means 100%.
 

Flacco4Prez

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If the Cubs got both, that would be the biggest return since Epstein's been here (on paper). I'd be happy with one of them
 

beckdawg

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Skaggs is ML ready. Bradley will be at AAA. The deal would have to be centered around Skaggs IMO.

Now if they pulled that deal; today the Cubs did not make a qualifying offer to any of their F/A's. Now Scott Baker I could see them offering him a deal to replace Shark in the rotation and then have Skaggs replace Rusin in the rotation. To be honest Baker looked pretty good in his stint and he was by no means 100%.

Not sure I agree about the Bradley part. As I've said before I think a guy like Haren makes a lot of sense for the cubs regardless of trading Shark. And if they do indeed trade Shark he makes even more sense. IMO you center the trade around the player you think is best. Perhaps it is both. Supposedly that's what the cubs wanted at the deadline for Shark. Maybe they are willing to move them both now. But like I said I doubt it.

This is probably also relevant
http://www.azsnakepit.com/2013/9/28/4780112/diamondbacks-top-100-prospects

Looking at that they seem to have Bradley as the better prospect. Fangraphs has it the other way around though. But even then, 5 of the top 6 prospects are pitchers so presumably the deal should work well for the cubs.
 

Flacco4Prez

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The Diamonbacks scouffed at the Skaggs/Bradley combo in July. Samardzija's value has gone down since then, in addition to the fact that they lose a half of season and playoff race with him. So overall his value has taken quite a hit. If the Cubs think one will turn into an ace then try for the deal but Shark has shown to be a middle of the rotation guy.
 

Boobaby1

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The Diamonbacks scouffed at the Skaggs/Bradley combo in July. Samardzija's value has gone down since then, in addition to the fact that they lose a half of season and playoff race with him. So overall his value has taken quite a hit. If the Cubs think one will turn into an ace then try for the deal but Shark has shown to be a middle of the rotation guy.

A middle of the rotation guy for a top prospect. Hmmm!

The Cubs just spent 48 million on Jackson for 4 years and he is not middle of the rotation on the Cubs. I would have to think that 2 years of Shark for half that price is worth a top dollar prospect and some change. Especially to someone who is ready to contend.

It's not as if they are emptying the farm because they won't trade both. Therefore, they will more than likely have two pitchers on the club in due time, and one is a guaranteed starter now, that being Shark.
 

beckdawg

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A middle of the rotation guy for a top prospect. Hmmm!

The Cubs just spent 48 million on Jackson for 4 years and he is not middle of the rotation on the Cubs. I would have to think that 2 years of Shark for half that price is worth a top dollar prospect and some change. Especially to someone who is ready to contend.

It's not as if they are emptying the farm because they won't trade both. Therefore, they will more than likely have two pitchers on the club in due time, and one is a guaranteed starter now, that being Shark.

For what it's worth, the metric numbers suggest Jackson is in for a rebound. But as for the trade, here's where it's interesting.

Wade Miley(26) 3.55 ERA last year
Patrick Corbin(24) 3.41 ERA last year
Trevor Cahill(25) 3.99 ERA last year
Randall Delgado(23) 4.26 ERA last year

If you throw Shark into that mix their rotation becomes very young and pretty good. Additionally, they not only have a decent staff at the major league level, they have a lot of top level pitching in their minors. So, in that regard the trade would make sense. I really could see them giving up 2 very good pitching prospect for Shark. Guys like Braden Shipley(#2 ceiling), David Holmberg(#3 ceiling) or Andrew Chafin(#3 ceiling but may need to be bullpen) could also be interesting pieces in a trade.

However, you can then take that sort of offer to other reportedly interested teams like the Pirates and Royals. Honestly, the more I think about it, the less unrealistic Bradley and Skaggs together sounds. What pitching will be on the market that is comparable to Shark? Garza is there without a qualifying offer. Burnett, Kuroda, Jimenez, and Santana all got qualifying offers. That leaves Colon, Nolasco, Kazmir, and Haren as really the only other choices. So, unless they either A) shell out big time for Garza, B) are willing to give up their 1st round pick and then pay someone or C) are willing to take lessor guys and wait on their own pitching there's not a lot of options. I suppose there's also D) with Price maybe being available but he's significantly more expensive.

If you view it from that standpoint, the cubs are in the drivers seat. Compare Shark to what the Royals gave up for Shields. Meyers was #4 on baseball america's top 100. Jake Odorizzi was #92. Mike Montgomery had been #23 the year before. Tyler Skaggs was #13 before the year but stumbled with a 5.43 ERA. Bradley's likely to be top 10. I could see the cubs having to throw something more in besides Shark like Wade Davis was for tampa but in terms of value, the two deals really aren't that far off. And if the Royals are going to go crazy in win now mode and offer Zimmer and Ventura, I don't think Skaggs/Bradley plus Shipley/Holmberg/Chafin gets the deal done for the d-backs.

Also, when's the last time a team underpaid for a guy like Shark? It seems like someone always goes over the top to get a deal done. It's almost always two top 50 players for the best young pitcher on the market be that Shields, Latos, Jimenez...etc. And at the moment, Skaggs and Bradley are really the only two guys who would be top 50 guys. Shark might not be as good as those players but I'm not really sure it matters. He's probably one of the top 5 pitchers a team could potentially get this off season and wont cost as much nor will it cost them a draft pick.
 

CSF77

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Not sure I agree about the Bradley part. As I've said before I think a guy like Haren makes a lot of sense for the cubs regardless of trading Shark. And if they do indeed trade Shark he makes even more sense. IMO you center the trade around the player you think is best. Perhaps it is both. Supposedly that's what the cubs wanted at the deadline for Shark. Maybe they are willing to move them both now. But like I said I doubt it.
I was going with Skaggs has MLB experence. Bradley has not pitched in AAA yet. The Cubs need an arm that they can plug and play. They already have Edwards/Johnson in AA. Rameriz and Hendrick's in AAA to choose from. The need is for 2014 not 2015-16. Add to it all of the quality arms they have are RH. Skaggs from the LH side becomes a top need going forward.

On the Haren front:

Not a fan really.

List of choices:
1. Trade Castro to STL for Miley. That would put the long term rotation at Miley, Skaggs, Edwards, Wood, Johnson This year Miley, Wood, Jackson, Skaggs, Arreta.

2. Resign Baker Rotation Baker, Wood, Jackson, Skaggs, Arreta. Long term works but we would be more dependant on the farm to produce a 1-2.

3. Pony up 75-80 mil to sign Tanaka. Now I believe this will never happen and this is the biggest .01% you will ever see happening.

Now Haren, no not really. I would rather have them go after J. Johnson. He is a hard thrower and has been an ace and is coming off of bone spur removal in his elbow. He has a good chance of bouncing back to ace status. Haren lost velocity that is his problem. Now he seems that he is adjusting but I wouldn't call a pitcher with a FB in the 80's my ace.


Josh Johnson Not Getting Qualifying Offer
By Tim Dierkes [November 4, 2013 at 12:50pm CST]
The Blue Jays will not be making a qualifying offer to righty Josh Johnson, MLBTR has learned. Even after a lost season wrecked by injuries, there was a small chance that the Jays would overpay to get the 29-year-old under contract for 2014. Had the Blue Jays made the $14.1MM qualifying offer, it's likely Johnson would have accepted, as he's not expected to reach that salary on the open market.

Johnson, profiled by MLBTR here, ranked 30th on our Top 50 Free Agents list. He's expected to be ready for Spring Training after elbow surgery this month, and will be seeking a one-year deal to rebuild value. A few days ago, agent Matt Sosnick told Mike Berardino of the Pioneer Press, "If Toronto doesn't make a qualifying offer, we'll probably be looking for a good pitching atmosphere, a good defense behind him and a team with a good chance to win."


To be honest I would be surprised if the Cubs don't go after Johnson. This feels like something that Theo and Jed would do.
 

beckdawg

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I was going with Skaggs has MLB experence. Bradley has not pitched in AAA yet. The Cubs need an arm that they can plug and play. They already have Edwards/Johnson in AA. Rameriz and Hendrick's in AAA to choose from. The need is for 2014 not 2015-16. Add to it all of the quality arms they have are RH. Skaggs from the LH side becomes a top need going forward.

Again I don't agree. They need the best pitcher they can get. If Bradley has to start in AAA so what? You do the same thing they did the past 2 years which is buy low on someone and hope to flip them at midseason. Now maybe they like Skaggs more and he's the better pitcher. But, you don't make this trade to fill a slot in the rotation this year. You make the trade because you get the best possible prospect. If that's Skaggs and he works into the 2014 rotation that's great. If it's Bradley you sign a low priced arm to get you through.
 

Flacco4Prez

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I was going with Skaggs has MLB experence. Bradley has not pitched in AAA yet. The Cubs need an arm that they can plug and play. They already have Edwards/Johnson in AA. Rameriz and Hendrick's in AAA to choose from. The need is for 2014 not 2015-16. Add to it all of the quality arms they have are RH. Skaggs from the LH side becomes a top need going forward.

On the Haren front:

Not a fan really.

List of choices:
1. Trade Castro to STL for Miley. That would put the long term rotation at Miley, Skaggs, Edwards, Wood, Johnson This year Miley, Wood, Jackson, Skaggs, Arreta.

2. Resign Baker Rotation Baker, Wood, Jackson, Skaggs, Arreta. Long term works but we would be more dependant on the farm to produce a 1-2.

3. Pony up 75-80 mil to sign Tanaka. Now I believe this will never happen and this is the biggest .01% you will ever see happening.

Now Haren, no not really. I would rather have them go after J. Johnson. He is a hard thrower and has been an ace and is coming off of bone spur removal in his elbow. He has a good chance of bouncing back to ace status. Haren lost velocity that is his problem. Now he seems that he is adjusting but I wouldn't call a pitcher with a FB in the 80's my ace.


Josh Johnson Not Getting Qualifying Offer
By Tim Dierkes [November 4, 2013 at 12:50pm CST]
The Blue Jays will not be making a qualifying offer to righty Josh Johnson, MLBTR has learned. Even after a lost season wrecked by injuries, there was a small chance that the Jays would overpay to get the 29-year-old under contract for 2014. Had the Blue Jays made the $14.1MM qualifying offer, it's likely Johnson would have accepted, as he's not expected to reach that salary on the open market.

Johnson, profiled by MLBTR here, ranked 30th on our Top 50 Free Agents list. He's expected to be ready for Spring Training after elbow surgery this month, and will be seeking a one-year deal to rebuild value. A few days ago, agent Matt Sosnick told Mike Berardino of the Pioneer Press, "If Toronto doesn't make a qualifying offer, we'll probably be looking for a good pitching atmosphere, a good defense behind him and a team with a good chance to win."


To be honest I would be surprised if the Cubs don't go after Johnson. This feels like something that Theo and Jed would do.

Miley plays for Arizona, unless you meant to say Miller
 

CSF77

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Again I don't agree. They need the best pitcher they can get. If Bradley has to start in AAA so what? You do the same thing they did the past 2 years which is buy low on someone and hope to flip them at midseason. Now maybe they like Skaggs more and he's the better pitcher. But, you don't make this trade to fill a slot in the rotation this year. You make the trade because you get the best possible prospect. If that's Skaggs and he works into the 2014 rotation that's great. If it's Bradley you sign a low priced arm to get you through.

Kinda fair enough but they need to add LH arms more than RH arms right now. If we are talking about the draft I can see your view because those arms are all projects. But if we are talking about a year out then you have to look at the current team needs. Right now the rotation needs a LH starter to go along with Wood more so than a RH prospect. They have 2 quality ones already and there is plenty of quality RH arms on the market right now.

LH starters just by their nature are more valuable due to their rarity. If both have value the LH starter has more unless the RH has world class talent like Stras.
 

Boobaby1

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Kinda fair enough but they need to add LH arms more than RH arms right now. If we are talking about the draft I can see your view because those arms are all projects. But if we are talking about a year out then you have to look at the current team needs. Right now the rotation needs a LH starter to go along with Wood more so than a RH prospect. They have 2 quality ones already and there is plenty of quality RH arms on the market right now.

LH starters just by their nature are more valuable due to their rarity. If both have value the LH starter has more unless the RH has world class talent like Stras.

While lefthanders are nice, it isn't as if the Cubs don't have any. I look at the Cardinals and they will do really well without Garcia as well evidenced this year. If Garcia comes back, great. I'm sure the Cardinals aren't sweating too much knowing they have Wainright, Wacha, Miller, Kelly, and Lynn in the rotation. Not to mention, the other bounty of arms they have if they decide to let one go.
 

beckdawg

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Kinda fair enough but they need to add LH arms more than RH arms right now. If we are talking about the draft I can see your view because those arms are all projects. But if we are talking about a year out then you have to look at the current team needs. Right now the rotation needs a LH starter to go along with Wood more so than a RH prospect. They have 2 quality ones already and there is plenty of quality RH arms on the market right now.

LH starters just by their nature are more valuable due to their rarity. If both have value the LH starter has more unless the RH has world class talent like Stras.

Honestly, I feel trying to fit short term needs in is just over thinking the situation. The cubs don't have sure things. Jackson is an innings eater but at best would be a 3-4. Arrieta could be very good but struggled in balt and his BABIP with the cubs was rather absurd. Wood too could be in line for some regression as indicated by his xFIP.

In my opinion, in 2014 you are going to throw out guys you think could be part of the future and see what sticks. They might do the same in 2015 as well. Basically, until they have a solid team that can win 80+ games I don't think there's much importance in worrying about things like that and similarly the amount of R/L in the batting order. I realize that's not ideal short term but to me you need to find as many people as you can who can be part of a team in 2015-2016 who realistically might have a chance to compete for a division title. If R/L balance comes with that great but i'd prioritize finding the right player rather than if they are R/L. Once you have a group of average or better players then you can start focusing more on team balance.

I know some don't like the idea but if I'm the cubs I would still be trying to sign flippable players this offseason. That's been my argument for Haren all along. If he's terrible you have other options. If he's good he's going to bring at least a Dempster level of return at the trade deadline. It's a similar situation in the OF. And honestly, I think Theo & company probably will do something like that especially if they end up trading Shark.
 

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I highly doubt Shark return Skaggs and Bradley. Bradley was one of the best pitching prospects in all of baseball last year. I highly doubt he is available.

That being said, AZ has a lot of decent prospects. It sure as hell wouldn't hurt if Skaggs and another pitcher come back for Shark.



CHAMPS!!!
 

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