houheffna
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We traded Gordon?
They let him go because they don't like him...period. Looks like a smart move to me...
We traded Gordon?
They let him go because they don't like him...period. Looks like a smart move to me...
pinkizdead
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lets talk about it at the end of free agency
if we get bosh, i agree. if we get JJ i'll disagree. If we get lee at a reasonable price, i'll agree to that too.
edit, lee and a shooter.
if we get bosh, i agree. if we get JJ i'll disagree. If we get lee at a reasonable price, i'll agree to that too.
edit, lee and a shooter.
houheffna
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there is nothing to talk about...they let Gordon go, now they have cap space and can talk to the free agents...so its worth it...
pinkizdead
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trying to communicate with hou is worse than pulling teeth.
Shakes
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LOL I fear this is never going to end. I mean isn't sweeping Detroit this year a reason to celebrate? Surely winning 4 games and finishing 14 games up on the hated enemy is something that we can all agree on? I guess not.
I think we all need to go with what Doug said on Fred's podcast, something about how he's very optimistic but with very low expectations, and how that makes it easier to enjoy the team. We made the playoffs. 5 times in 6 years after missing them for 6 years straight. While not elite, this team has been pretty good and entertaining. I think that's something to enjoy instead of turning this into yet another back and forth over whether Detroit's backup SG is tall enough.
I mean are we going to continue the bitterness next year? When we sign a FA (whoever it is) will there be gloating back and forth whenever BG does or doesn't outscore our FA signing? I hope not, but given the way Brand vs Chandler played out, I'm not really expecting it to.
I think we all need to go with what Doug said on Fred's podcast, something about how he's very optimistic but with very low expectations, and how that makes it easier to enjoy the team. We made the playoffs. 5 times in 6 years after missing them for 6 years straight. While not elite, this team has been pretty good and entertaining. I think that's something to enjoy instead of turning this into yet another back and forth over whether Detroit's backup SG is tall enough.
I mean are we going to continue the bitterness next year? When we sign a FA (whoever it is) will there be gloating back and forth whenever BG does or doesn't outscore our FA signing? I hope not, but given the way Brand vs Chandler played out, I'm not really expecting it to.
Fred
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Here's a link to the prediction thread I started at the beginning of the year. Vegas had us at 41.5 wins. I took the under and predicted 39. Apparently, 2 games to some of you is way off.
http://www.bullspodcasters.com/forums?func=view&catid=5&id=29243#29243
Looks like I was incredibly accurate. Definitely a lot more accurate then my co-host.
http://www.bullspodcasters.com/forums?func=view&catid=5&id=29243#29243
Looks like I was incredibly accurate. Definitely a lot more accurate then my co-host.
Fred
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Shakes wrote:
My only point throughout the year was the Bulls constant bitching and complaining about injuries was ridiculous. On the day Salmons was traded, we were a .500 team in Feb. Up until that point, Rose and Deng had played in every game. Noah had missed only 5 games, and we were 3-2 in those games.
Mark's had one good point all year, and it was that our injuries occurred at the the best possible time. In all liklihood, we weren't going to win much during that 0-10 stretch. Even if we were completely healthy, I think we would have only won 2 or 3 games during that stretch.
But if you listen to some announcers, writers and fans, we're the only team that had injuries this year.
Let's look at the total games missed for the top 6 scorers on the Pistons and Bulls:
BULLS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
Rose 4
Deng 12
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Gibson 0
Miller 0
= 42
PISTONS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
HAMILTON 36
STUCKEY 9
GORDON 20
PRINCE 33
CHARLIE V. 4
BYNUM 19
= 121
RAPTORS TOPP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
BOSH 12
BARGNANI 2
J. JACK 0
HEDOSUCK 8
JOSE C. 14
DEROZAN 5
= 41
Are the Pistons, completely healthy, better than the Bulls? No, not with the Pistons interior defense. However, the Bulls sure aren't 14 wins better. I would argue Bosh's 12 games missed more than any other injury of these 3 teams, certainly more than Deng's missed 12.
Hinrich and Deng alone had more games missed due to injury last year than the Bulls team this year. Yet the media and the announcers want to rewrite this season as a downer due to injury. Give me a freaking break.
My only point throughout the year was the Bulls constant bitching and complaining about injuries was ridiculous. On the day Salmons was traded, we were a .500 team in Feb. Up until that point, Rose and Deng had played in every game. Noah had missed only 5 games, and we were 3-2 in those games.
Mark's had one good point all year, and it was that our injuries occurred at the the best possible time. In all liklihood, we weren't going to win much during that 0-10 stretch. Even if we were completely healthy, I think we would have only won 2 or 3 games during that stretch.
But if you listen to some announcers, writers and fans, we're the only team that had injuries this year.
Let's look at the total games missed for the top 6 scorers on the Pistons and Bulls:
BULLS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
Rose 4
Deng 12
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Gibson 0
Miller 0
= 42
PISTONS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
HAMILTON 36
STUCKEY 9
GORDON 20
PRINCE 33
CHARLIE V. 4
BYNUM 19
= 121
RAPTORS TOPP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
BOSH 12
BARGNANI 2
J. JACK 0
HEDOSUCK 8
JOSE C. 14
DEROZAN 5
= 41
Are the Pistons, completely healthy, better than the Bulls? No, not with the Pistons interior defense. However, the Bulls sure aren't 14 wins better. I would argue Bosh's 12 games missed more than any other injury of these 3 teams, certainly more than Deng's missed 12.
Hinrich and Deng alone had more games missed due to injury last year than the Bulls team this year. Yet the media and the announcers want to rewrite this season as a downer due to injury. Give me a freaking break.
Kush77
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houheffna wrote:
Oh, make a unfunny joke instead of dealing with the issue. Kinda like Sarah Palin.
You accused me of saying the Bulls would be in - was if hellfire? Because BG left. Well I provided proof that you just made stuff up- again, very Palinesque of you.
So just admit you made something up and move on. don't change the subject with political references to a moron like Palin.
Did the slogan catch on? I didn't plan for it to catch on. I don't care. I'm just making my point on how I picked the Bulls to make the postseason. But you can go off on another tangent to avoid the fact that I busted you on making stuff up.
This is what you said in case you forgot already.
"I am talking to Preacher Man and his congregants...talking about it raining hellfire and all that because dude left..."
I never said the Bulls would miss the playoffs or that the Pistons would be better. You made something up and you can't admit you were wrong. So you change the subject. You compare me to a moron like Sarah Palin but you are the one exhibiting the Pailin-like qualities. I know you're better than that. B)
As for the term Mavericky, that actually wasn't a Palin saying. Mavericky was used by Tina Fey when she impersonated Palin. So what you would really mean to say was that I was Feyesque. I would rather be that than Palinesque.
Oh, make a unfunny joke instead of dealing with the issue. Kinda like Sarah Palin.
You accused me of saying the Bulls would be in - was if hellfire? Because BG left. Well I provided proof that you just made stuff up- again, very Palinesque of you.
So just admit you made something up and move on. don't change the subject with political references to a moron like Palin.
Did the slogan catch on? I didn't plan for it to catch on. I don't care. I'm just making my point on how I picked the Bulls to make the postseason. But you can go off on another tangent to avoid the fact that I busted you on making stuff up.
This is what you said in case you forgot already.
"I am talking to Preacher Man and his congregants...talking about it raining hellfire and all that because dude left..."
I never said the Bulls would miss the playoffs or that the Pistons would be better. You made something up and you can't admit you were wrong. So you change the subject. You compare me to a moron like Sarah Palin but you are the one exhibiting the Pailin-like qualities. I know you're better than that. B)
As for the term Mavericky, that actually wasn't a Palin saying. Mavericky was used by Tina Fey when she impersonated Palin. So what you would really mean to say was that I was Feyesque. I would rather be that than Palinesque.
Kush77
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Shakes wrote:
No one is bitter about BG.
I just don't like it when our good friend Hou accuses me of saying something that I didn't say.
Who ever said they were bitter about BG?
No one is bitter about BG.
I just don't like it when our good friend Hou accuses me of saying something that I didn't say.
Who ever said they were bitter about BG?
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My favorite teams
I'd say Fred is bitter...but I also say he'll adamantly deny that statement.
Shakes
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Kush77 wrote:
I meant more between the supposedly "pro" and "anti" BG camps. And I wouldn't hold myself blameless, I've been as snarky as anyone about it at times.
I meant more between the supposedly "pro" and "anti" BG camps. And I wouldn't hold myself blameless, I've been as snarky as anyone about it at times.
Kush77
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Shakes wrote:
You are a snarky S.O.B. B)
You are a snarky S.O.B. B)
houheffna
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Nope, you never said "hellfire", not once. You said other things that are questionable and unsubstantiated but you didn't say that. That would have been creepy if you actually used that word...but I believe you know what I mean. I am sure you can notice the sarcasm and the exaggeration, but you were part of the group wanting to lead a bloody coup on the Chicago Bulls front office for not signing him.
I know Tina Fey said it, she was playing Sarah Palin when she said it. That said if you go back and listen to the Ben Gordon Gospel Hour...i'm sorry, Running with the Bulls, you berated Reinsdorf and said that he deserves no credit for 7 championships, and for some reason, his buying the Phoenix Coyotes has something to do with his not signing Ben Gordon. I don't get that at all but that was part of your rant. You dismissed Pippen, Krause (you gave Williams credit but Krause gets no credit...what????)and Reinsdorf because of Ben Gordon...you also had a rationale that Gordon is worth 12mil a year...seriously? 12mil? You stated that as long as Reinsdorf was in charge, the Bulls would always underachieve, because he is more concerned with money than winning. All of that because they didn't resign Gordon.
My goodness Rev. Kush...so vitriolic...scary
Kush77
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houheffna wrote:
You comparing me to Sarah Palin got me in a tizzy.
Let me address what I was saying because you're misrepresenting it a bit.
In regards to the Coyotes. This goes back to a discussion Doug and I were having. DT was taking the side that resigning Gordon for that amount wasn't good because of the economic conditions. I disagreed because the Bulls always make money. Shortly after DT and I had that back and forth the story comes out that JR was looking into buying part of the Phoenix Coyotes. So my point is you can't go into the luxury tax for your basketball team, that always makes money, because of the recession. But you can invest in a bankrupt NHL franchise in this same recession? That was my point. I wasn't saying that Ben Gordon and the Coyotes were directly related.
As for BG making 12 million, that what he deserved. Luol Deng makes about 11 mil per season. I feel that Gordon was better, and more important to the Bulls, than Deng. Therefore i think BG should have been paid more. 12 million would be fair considering the lesser player makes 11 million on the same team. And Ben Gordon got paid.
Whether you think Det is crazy or not isn't the point. For over 2 years I said Ben Gordon would get paid. And he did. I was right.
When it comes to the 7 titles, JR doesn't deserve credit for that IMO. And my thoughts on that are more directed to the folks (media and fans) that take this simplistic view of - "well he has 7 titles therefore he's the best owner." False. Let me explain again because I broke this down on the board before.
When it comes to the Bulls, he bought a team with the greatest player ever on it. As a result they won 6 titles. If Jordan isn't on the Bulls they don't win 6 titles, period. and anyone who thinks they would is - as you would say - basketball Special person.
Now that's not taking a shot , or dismissing as you said, Scottie Pippen. You can twist that into me trying to discredit Pippen, a Palin-like move on your part B) but that's not what I was trying to do. In fact you agree that Pippen wouldn't be the player he was without MJ. and neither would the Bulls franchise.
I'll put it this way - if Jerry Reinsdorf bought the Clippers in 1985 - would he have 6 titles as an NBA owner?? Given his track record of letting key players like Horace Grant walk, and botching coaching searches like Mike D'Antoni. Given all the mistakes JR has made as an NBA owner, would he have 6 titles on his resume without MJ?
As for the World Series, that's all Ken Williams. Williams made great moves to put that team together. He wasn't given a blank check by JR, he had to work on a budget, and he put together a title team. Trading Lee for Podsednik. Lee was a better player but Ken Williams took the risk to change the dynamic of the team. and it worked. He signed AJ and Iguchi. The year before he brought in Garcia and Contreras. Williams made those moves. He wasn't given the blank check to sign a major free agent like A-Rod or Sabathia or Soriano. Williams had to work within a limit. Therefore I give the credit to the GM, not the owner.
Now on the flip side, last year's Yankees team I would credit the owner more (Steinbrenner) because he gave Cashman the blank check to sign Sabathia, Burnett and Tiexeria. In that case I don't give the GM credit because anyone on this board, if given that blank check, would have signed the top free agents. Doesn't take a brain surgeon to do that.
And Jerry Reinsdorf does care more about money that winning. Do you think otherwise?
He's a businessman first. If his teams happen to win along the way, he's fine with that. But losing doesn't bother him the way it does a guy like Steinbrenner. If Steinbrenner loses, he spends to make sure that changes. JR doesn't. JR is about money first. then if winning comes along with it, it's cool.
Nope, you never said "hellfire", not once. You said other things that are questionable and unsubstantiated but you didn't say that. That would have been creepy if you actually used that word...but I believe you know what I mean. I am sure you can notice the sarcasm and the exaggeration, but you were part of the group wanting to lead a bloody coup on the Chicago Bulls front office for not signing him.
I know Tina Fey said it, she was playing Sarah Palin when she said it. That said if you go back and listen to the Ben Gordon Gospel Hour...i'm sorry, Running with the Bulls, you berated Reinsdorf and said that he deserves no credit for 7 championships, and for some reason, his buying the Phoenix Coyotes has something to do with his not signing Ben Gordon. I don't get that at all but that was part of your rant. You dismissed Pippen, Krause (you gave Williams credit but Krause gets no credit...what????)and Reinsdorf because of Ben Gordon...you also had a rationale that Gordon is worth 12mil a year...seriously? 12mil? You stated that as long as Reinsdorf was in charge, the Bulls would always underachieve, because he is more concerned with money than winning. All of that because they didn't resign Gordon.
My goodness Rev. Kush...so vitriolic...scary
You comparing me to Sarah Palin got me in a tizzy.
Let me address what I was saying because you're misrepresenting it a bit.
In regards to the Coyotes. This goes back to a discussion Doug and I were having. DT was taking the side that resigning Gordon for that amount wasn't good because of the economic conditions. I disagreed because the Bulls always make money. Shortly after DT and I had that back and forth the story comes out that JR was looking into buying part of the Phoenix Coyotes. So my point is you can't go into the luxury tax for your basketball team, that always makes money, because of the recession. But you can invest in a bankrupt NHL franchise in this same recession? That was my point. I wasn't saying that Ben Gordon and the Coyotes were directly related.
As for BG making 12 million, that what he deserved. Luol Deng makes about 11 mil per season. I feel that Gordon was better, and more important to the Bulls, than Deng. Therefore i think BG should have been paid more. 12 million would be fair considering the lesser player makes 11 million on the same team. And Ben Gordon got paid.
Whether you think Det is crazy or not isn't the point. For over 2 years I said Ben Gordon would get paid. And he did. I was right.
When it comes to the 7 titles, JR doesn't deserve credit for that IMO. And my thoughts on that are more directed to the folks (media and fans) that take this simplistic view of - "well he has 7 titles therefore he's the best owner." False. Let me explain again because I broke this down on the board before.
When it comes to the Bulls, he bought a team with the greatest player ever on it. As a result they won 6 titles. If Jordan isn't on the Bulls they don't win 6 titles, period. and anyone who thinks they would is - as you would say - basketball Special person.
Now that's not taking a shot , or dismissing as you said, Scottie Pippen. You can twist that into me trying to discredit Pippen, a Palin-like move on your part B) but that's not what I was trying to do. In fact you agree that Pippen wouldn't be the player he was without MJ. and neither would the Bulls franchise.
I'll put it this way - if Jerry Reinsdorf bought the Clippers in 1985 - would he have 6 titles as an NBA owner?? Given his track record of letting key players like Horace Grant walk, and botching coaching searches like Mike D'Antoni. Given all the mistakes JR has made as an NBA owner, would he have 6 titles on his resume without MJ?
As for the World Series, that's all Ken Williams. Williams made great moves to put that team together. He wasn't given a blank check by JR, he had to work on a budget, and he put together a title team. Trading Lee for Podsednik. Lee was a better player but Ken Williams took the risk to change the dynamic of the team. and it worked. He signed AJ and Iguchi. The year before he brought in Garcia and Contreras. Williams made those moves. He wasn't given the blank check to sign a major free agent like A-Rod or Sabathia or Soriano. Williams had to work within a limit. Therefore I give the credit to the GM, not the owner.
Now on the flip side, last year's Yankees team I would credit the owner more (Steinbrenner) because he gave Cashman the blank check to sign Sabathia, Burnett and Tiexeria. In that case I don't give the GM credit because anyone on this board, if given that blank check, would have signed the top free agents. Doesn't take a brain surgeon to do that.
And Jerry Reinsdorf does care more about money that winning. Do you think otherwise?
He's a businessman first. If his teams happen to win along the way, he's fine with that. But losing doesn't bother him the way it does a guy like Steinbrenner. If Steinbrenner loses, he spends to make sure that changes. JR doesn't. JR is about money first. then if winning comes along with it, it's cool.
TheStig
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Kush77 wrote:
BG makes about 1/2 mill to a mill less than Deng going forward(it was 300k less this year and about 3 mill less last year), has a shorter contract, with smaller raises and I don't think he has any bonuses.
BG makes about 1/2 mill to a mill less than Deng going forward(it was 300k less this year and about 3 mill less last year), has a shorter contract, with smaller raises and I don't think he has any bonuses.
Fred
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TheStig wrote:
houheffna
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Kush, did Reinsdorf steal your ex-girlfriend or something.
I am glad you have no say so in how a the Bulls are run, they would suck! You would pay Gordon 12mil because you paid Deng 11. You pay what the market dictates. And if you make one bad signing, you don't make another in reaction. Signing Gordon to 12mil would have been over the top. When both are healthy, the Gordon is better than Deng argument is not so easy. Gordon's best season, Deng was the best player on that team. The Bulls thought the same. And if you wanna compare salaries, you don't pay Gordon more than you pay Monta Ellis, who is a better basketball player in my opinion. If Gordon deserved 12mil, fine, get it elsewhere. He is not important enough to spend that kind of money on...kudos to the Bulls for that move...
As for the White Sox...aren't you a Cubs fan? You sound like one. Reinsdorf offered ARod almost 20mil a year. He broke the bank for Albert Belle which pissed off a lot of owners, ,and the White Sox had a legitimate contender in 1994 when the league went on strike. Continuously comparing Reinsdorf to Steinbrenner is crazy. Steinbrenner deserves NO credit according to your own theory, its easy to throw money around when you have a 200mil payroll and others don't come close. I take it you want to give Hendry and Tribune a lot of credit for spending a lot of money? Yeah, okay...how is Soriano working out for ya? Can't believe you brought his name up in this conversation.
Reinsdorf buying a sports franchise, starting a new business, buying a private plane, has nothing to do with luxury taxes in the NBA. So your argument is he should spend HIS money on what YOU want him to spend it on...namely Ben Gordon...OKAY!!!!
You ARE being dismissive of a hall of fame player. No other way to look at it. I have said that Jordan had a lot to do with Pippen's success but Pippen is a HOFer and deservedly so. Pippen wasn't here when Reinsdorf bought the team. Reinsdorf hired the guy who drafted Pippen, Reinsdorf hired the guy who brought in Phil Jackson from the coaching scrapheap, and Reinsdorf hired the guy who put the players around Jordan to win. Jordan didn't win anything from 1984-91. If you want to claim that the Bulls had the greatest team ever, you have to give the people credit who put the team together. Jordan can't walk out on the court by himself and beat the '83 Sixers or those Celtics or Lakers teams you claim the Bulls would dismiss so easily. And again I ask, when Jordan started to analyze players and make draft picks, who did he call for advice...Jerry Krause, maybe Jerry West hung up on him...could it be because Krause actually has some knowledge? Could it be because Reinsdorf knew who to hire? What are ALL THE MISTAKE Reinsdorf made? What are you talking about? You can blame Reinsdorf for mistakes but not give him any credit for success? You gotta do better than that man...Steinbrenner has made just as many mistakes as Reinsdorf. Steinbrenner did get suspended from baseball for a time didn't he? Plus Steinbrenner is a billionaire. That doesn't translate in basketball. How many championships does billionaires Cuban and Allen in Portland have?
Reinsdorf's wanting to win and make money is absolutely NO different from anyone else including Steinbrenner and Cuban. Winning makes money! The Reinsdorf/Clippers scenario is crazy, If he won with the White Sox, why couldn't he win with the Clippers?
I am glad you have no say so in how a the Bulls are run, they would suck! You would pay Gordon 12mil because you paid Deng 11. You pay what the market dictates. And if you make one bad signing, you don't make another in reaction. Signing Gordon to 12mil would have been over the top. When both are healthy, the Gordon is better than Deng argument is not so easy. Gordon's best season, Deng was the best player on that team. The Bulls thought the same. And if you wanna compare salaries, you don't pay Gordon more than you pay Monta Ellis, who is a better basketball player in my opinion. If Gordon deserved 12mil, fine, get it elsewhere. He is not important enough to spend that kind of money on...kudos to the Bulls for that move...
As for the White Sox...aren't you a Cubs fan? You sound like one. Reinsdorf offered ARod almost 20mil a year. He broke the bank for Albert Belle which pissed off a lot of owners, ,and the White Sox had a legitimate contender in 1994 when the league went on strike. Continuously comparing Reinsdorf to Steinbrenner is crazy. Steinbrenner deserves NO credit according to your own theory, its easy to throw money around when you have a 200mil payroll and others don't come close. I take it you want to give Hendry and Tribune a lot of credit for spending a lot of money? Yeah, okay...how is Soriano working out for ya? Can't believe you brought his name up in this conversation.
Reinsdorf buying a sports franchise, starting a new business, buying a private plane, has nothing to do with luxury taxes in the NBA. So your argument is he should spend HIS money on what YOU want him to spend it on...namely Ben Gordon...OKAY!!!!
You ARE being dismissive of a hall of fame player. No other way to look at it. I have said that Jordan had a lot to do with Pippen's success but Pippen is a HOFer and deservedly so. Pippen wasn't here when Reinsdorf bought the team. Reinsdorf hired the guy who drafted Pippen, Reinsdorf hired the guy who brought in Phil Jackson from the coaching scrapheap, and Reinsdorf hired the guy who put the players around Jordan to win. Jordan didn't win anything from 1984-91. If you want to claim that the Bulls had the greatest team ever, you have to give the people credit who put the team together. Jordan can't walk out on the court by himself and beat the '83 Sixers or those Celtics or Lakers teams you claim the Bulls would dismiss so easily. And again I ask, when Jordan started to analyze players and make draft picks, who did he call for advice...Jerry Krause, maybe Jerry West hung up on him...could it be because Krause actually has some knowledge? Could it be because Reinsdorf knew who to hire? What are ALL THE MISTAKE Reinsdorf made? What are you talking about? You can blame Reinsdorf for mistakes but not give him any credit for success? You gotta do better than that man...Steinbrenner has made just as many mistakes as Reinsdorf. Steinbrenner did get suspended from baseball for a time didn't he? Plus Steinbrenner is a billionaire. That doesn't translate in basketball. How many championships does billionaires Cuban and Allen in Portland have?
Reinsdorf's wanting to win and make money is absolutely NO different from anyone else including Steinbrenner and Cuban. Winning makes money! The Reinsdorf/Clippers scenario is crazy, If he won with the White Sox, why couldn't he win with the Clippers?
TheStig
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Fred wrote:
Kush77
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houheffna wrote:
We disagree on Gordon. I think the Bulls would have been a better team with Gordon and he would have been tradable. I read DT's post about Bosh, if he leaves, would do a sign and trade. If Gordon stayed, the Bulls would of been better and he would of have had his typical season. He would have been tradable. He produced. My point is that his contract wouldn't be like Soriano's - unmovable. And he makes an avg of 11.6 million I think, so it's not much more than Ellis. I don't know what Ellis averages out to but he deserves it.
I am a Cubs fan. And that's the second time you've pointed out that's I'm a Cubs fan when the JR/Sox topic comes up. As if that somehow means my opinions on the White Sox then aren't valid. Well I grew up on the southside for 21 years and actually lived in Bridgeport. About 90% of friends are Sox fans. I also follow the Sox. So let's not turn this into a silly Cubs vs Sox thing. I've grown out of that garbage.
But you are again changing the subject. I'm aware he signed Albert Belle in 1997 for 55 mil. That same offseason he also signed Jamie Navarro away from the Cubs. He did make a play for Arod, but Texas got him. And the Sox were a contender in 1994 before the strike. But none of that has to do with my point that Ken Williams deserves the credit for the 2005 title. Ken Williams deserves more credit than JR. That's my point. I'm not saying JR never spent money on the Sox. He did, and has- Peavy/Rios. But that has nothing to do with my point about the 2005 season.
A season, when I listened to the Score a lot, Sox fans were bitching about the team. Julie Swieka (is that how it was spelled) remember her? She was a Sox fans and used to be on the air at night when I drove to work. I remember Sox fans on there talking about how they weren't excited about the upcoming 2005 season. But me, THE CUBS FAN, put actual money on the Sox to win the division in 2005 at 7-2 odds. And I won. Too bad I didn't go all the way with the bet.
You're missing my point again. The point I was making is - don't say you're worried about paying luxury tax because you need to watch your finances because of the recession, then turn around and try to buy into a bankrupt NHL franchise.
So you don't have the money to spend on a team that has ALWAYS made money, but you can invest in the storied franchise that is the Phoenix Coyotes. Okee Dokee.
But this was something Doug and I were talking about. Doug was taking the side of JR needs to, I guess, buckle down financially because things could get bad. But things apparently were not bad enough for him to try and buy a bankrupt NHL team. That was the point I was making.
I really don't know where you're going with all this. You continue to miss the points I'm trying to make.
JR bought a team with the greatest player ever on it. I'm aware guys have to be put around him. But if JR doesn't buy the Bulls he doesn't have 6 NBA championships. Bottom line. Why? Because he's made mistakes as an owner. Being cheap is one of them.
you ask what what mistakes, um how about one I wrote in my last post - HORACE GRANT. I suppose you think it was a good move to let your best rebounder/interior defender and starting PF on three titles teams waslk because you're too cheap to pay him? That was a good move, not a mistake. Is that what you're saying. And then turn around and allow a rookie named Toni Kukoc to because the highest paid Bull of all-time. Yeah. Good stuff.
As well as allowing your GM to alienate Phil Jackson and allow relationships deteriorate as with Scottie Pippen. I've gone through all this on the boards and I'm not going to do it again. JR is an average owner that got lucky. He's not some great owner because he has 7 titles, he got lucky with his NBA team.
It's not that I don't want to give Reinsdorf credit, again missing my point. The point I was making is that people want to say JR is the best owner in this town simply because he has 7 titles, case closed. You gotta dig deeper. He's an average owner that got lucky.
He's owned the Sox for 30 years and has 1 title. that's basically what he is, an average owner. I'm not gonna place him any higher because he got lucky and bought an NBA team with the greatest player ever on it.
But just for sh*ts and giggles, how successful as JR been in the 12 seasons since Jordan retired? 1 playoff series win in 12 years.
You're the one that is turning this into a Steinbrenner vs Reinsdorf debate. I'm just using Steinbrenner because the 2009 Yankees are an example of how I would give an owner credit over a GM.
I'm aware that spending money doesn't automatically win you titles. Snyder with the Redskins is a perfect example. the Yankees spent tons of money between 2000 and 2008 and only had 2 AL pennants to show for it. But again, that not the point I was trying to make.
The point I'm making is when a GM deserves credit, and when an owner deserves credit.
The Yankees run 1996, 1998, 1999 and 2000. Those titles were won with mostly the homegrown guys Derek Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Pettitte,etc. Throw in some role guys like Paul O'Neill and Scott Brocious. not all-stars or big money makers, but good players. And the Yankees won those titles. In THIS example I would give credit to the GM. I'm not sure if Cashman drafted all those guys, but the Yankees won those titles with drafted homegrown guys as the core. In this case I would credit the GM.
The 2009 Yankees title. They hadn't won since 2000. So when a ton of money comes off the books the Yankees reinvest it in Sabathia, Burnett and Teixera. Adding those three guys is the reason they won the title last year. Yankees don't have that starting pitching, they don't come close to winning it last year. THEREFORE since Steinbrenner (or his son, whoever) allowed Cashman to spend big, in that example I credit the OWNER.
Let's move from the Yankees though because again, I'm not making this a Steinbrenner vs. JR argument. Let's look at the Florida Marlins; two titles.
1997 Florida Marlins. Then owner Wayne Huizenga spent big money on every big name he could. Moises Alou, Gary Sheffield, Robb Nen, Kevin Brown and Bobby Bonilla. The Marlins win the World Series in 1997.
In this case I give credit to the OWNER. He spent money to win.
The 2003 Florida Marlins. They won the title behind young players like Josh Beckett, Miguel Cabrera, Luis Castillo, Dontrelle Willis.
They had young guys they had traded for early in their careers like Juan Pierre and Derrek Lee. And they won the World Series. In this case I would credit the GM for putting a good young team together.
But I do have to point out that they caught a break being able to sign Pudge Rodriguez to a 1-year deal for 10 mil. So the owner did open up the pocket book a bit, but hardly a blockbuster mega contract. Pudge had three straight injury riddled seasons and had to do the 1-year thing to prove himself. The after the year he signed a much bigger deal with the Tigers.
That is my point. and this is just the baseball aspect (NOT basketball) some years the owner deserves credit for spending big to improve. And in some cases it can be the GM and his staff for putting together a team through the farm and modest moves. and it's not Ken Williams 100%, Jerry Reinsdorf 0%. But I give Ken Williams more credit than JR.
Funny how you never comment on the actual moves Kenny made prior to 2005. I always post them yet you don't acknowledge it. Is it because I'm right?
When it comes to basketball I don't want to hear from people that JR is some great owner simply because he has 6 titles. He got lucky an bought a team with the best player of all-time on it. That gave him a hell of a head start as an owner.
You said
I didn't say he COULDN'T win with the Clippers. He just wouldn't have won 6 with the Clippers. He could have won a title over a 30 year span like he has with the White Sox.
We disagree on Gordon. I think the Bulls would have been a better team with Gordon and he would have been tradable. I read DT's post about Bosh, if he leaves, would do a sign and trade. If Gordon stayed, the Bulls would of been better and he would of have had his typical season. He would have been tradable. He produced. My point is that his contract wouldn't be like Soriano's - unmovable. And he makes an avg of 11.6 million I think, so it's not much more than Ellis. I don't know what Ellis averages out to but he deserves it.
I am a Cubs fan. And that's the second time you've pointed out that's I'm a Cubs fan when the JR/Sox topic comes up. As if that somehow means my opinions on the White Sox then aren't valid. Well I grew up on the southside for 21 years and actually lived in Bridgeport. About 90% of friends are Sox fans. I also follow the Sox. So let's not turn this into a silly Cubs vs Sox thing. I've grown out of that garbage.
But you are again changing the subject. I'm aware he signed Albert Belle in 1997 for 55 mil. That same offseason he also signed Jamie Navarro away from the Cubs. He did make a play for Arod, but Texas got him. And the Sox were a contender in 1994 before the strike. But none of that has to do with my point that Ken Williams deserves the credit for the 2005 title. Ken Williams deserves more credit than JR. That's my point. I'm not saying JR never spent money on the Sox. He did, and has- Peavy/Rios. But that has nothing to do with my point about the 2005 season.
A season, when I listened to the Score a lot, Sox fans were bitching about the team. Julie Swieka (is that how it was spelled) remember her? She was a Sox fans and used to be on the air at night when I drove to work. I remember Sox fans on there talking about how they weren't excited about the upcoming 2005 season. But me, THE CUBS FAN, put actual money on the Sox to win the division in 2005 at 7-2 odds. And I won. Too bad I didn't go all the way with the bet.
You're missing my point again. The point I was making is - don't say you're worried about paying luxury tax because you need to watch your finances because of the recession, then turn around and try to buy into a bankrupt NHL franchise.
So you don't have the money to spend on a team that has ALWAYS made money, but you can invest in the storied franchise that is the Phoenix Coyotes. Okee Dokee.
But this was something Doug and I were talking about. Doug was taking the side of JR needs to, I guess, buckle down financially because things could get bad. But things apparently were not bad enough for him to try and buy a bankrupt NHL team. That was the point I was making.
I really don't know where you're going with all this. You continue to miss the points I'm trying to make.
JR bought a team with the greatest player ever on it. I'm aware guys have to be put around him. But if JR doesn't buy the Bulls he doesn't have 6 NBA championships. Bottom line. Why? Because he's made mistakes as an owner. Being cheap is one of them.
you ask what what mistakes, um how about one I wrote in my last post - HORACE GRANT. I suppose you think it was a good move to let your best rebounder/interior defender and starting PF on three titles teams waslk because you're too cheap to pay him? That was a good move, not a mistake. Is that what you're saying. And then turn around and allow a rookie named Toni Kukoc to because the highest paid Bull of all-time. Yeah. Good stuff.
As well as allowing your GM to alienate Phil Jackson and allow relationships deteriorate as with Scottie Pippen. I've gone through all this on the boards and I'm not going to do it again. JR is an average owner that got lucky. He's not some great owner because he has 7 titles, he got lucky with his NBA team.
It's not that I don't want to give Reinsdorf credit, again missing my point. The point I was making is that people want to say JR is the best owner in this town simply because he has 7 titles, case closed. You gotta dig deeper. He's an average owner that got lucky.
He's owned the Sox for 30 years and has 1 title. that's basically what he is, an average owner. I'm not gonna place him any higher because he got lucky and bought an NBA team with the greatest player ever on it.
But just for sh*ts and giggles, how successful as JR been in the 12 seasons since Jordan retired? 1 playoff series win in 12 years.
You're the one that is turning this into a Steinbrenner vs Reinsdorf debate. I'm just using Steinbrenner because the 2009 Yankees are an example of how I would give an owner credit over a GM.
I'm aware that spending money doesn't automatically win you titles. Snyder with the Redskins is a perfect example. the Yankees spent tons of money between 2000 and 2008 and only had 2 AL pennants to show for it. But again, that not the point I was trying to make.
The point I'm making is when a GM deserves credit, and when an owner deserves credit.
The Yankees run 1996, 1998, 1999 and 2000. Those titles were won with mostly the homegrown guys Derek Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Pettitte,etc. Throw in some role guys like Paul O'Neill and Scott Brocious. not all-stars or big money makers, but good players. And the Yankees won those titles. In THIS example I would give credit to the GM. I'm not sure if Cashman drafted all those guys, but the Yankees won those titles with drafted homegrown guys as the core. In this case I would credit the GM.
The 2009 Yankees title. They hadn't won since 2000. So when a ton of money comes off the books the Yankees reinvest it in Sabathia, Burnett and Teixera. Adding those three guys is the reason they won the title last year. Yankees don't have that starting pitching, they don't come close to winning it last year. THEREFORE since Steinbrenner (or his son, whoever) allowed Cashman to spend big, in that example I credit the OWNER.
Let's move from the Yankees though because again, I'm not making this a Steinbrenner vs. JR argument. Let's look at the Florida Marlins; two titles.
1997 Florida Marlins. Then owner Wayne Huizenga spent big money on every big name he could. Moises Alou, Gary Sheffield, Robb Nen, Kevin Brown and Bobby Bonilla. The Marlins win the World Series in 1997.
In this case I give credit to the OWNER. He spent money to win.
The 2003 Florida Marlins. They won the title behind young players like Josh Beckett, Miguel Cabrera, Luis Castillo, Dontrelle Willis.
They had young guys they had traded for early in their careers like Juan Pierre and Derrek Lee. And they won the World Series. In this case I would credit the GM for putting a good young team together.
But I do have to point out that they caught a break being able to sign Pudge Rodriguez to a 1-year deal for 10 mil. So the owner did open up the pocket book a bit, but hardly a blockbuster mega contract. Pudge had three straight injury riddled seasons and had to do the 1-year thing to prove himself. The after the year he signed a much bigger deal with the Tigers.
That is my point. and this is just the baseball aspect (NOT basketball) some years the owner deserves credit for spending big to improve. And in some cases it can be the GM and his staff for putting together a team through the farm and modest moves. and it's not Ken Williams 100%, Jerry Reinsdorf 0%. But I give Ken Williams more credit than JR.
Funny how you never comment on the actual moves Kenny made prior to 2005. I always post them yet you don't acknowledge it. Is it because I'm right?
When it comes to basketball I don't want to hear from people that JR is some great owner simply because he has 6 titles. He got lucky an bought a team with the best player of all-time on it. That gave him a hell of a head start as an owner.
You said
I didn't say he COULDN'T win with the Clippers. He just wouldn't have won 6 with the Clippers. He could have won a title over a 30 year span like he has with the White Sox.
Kush77
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houheffna wrote:
I had to address this comment because I somehow missed it when reading your post.
If the Cubs won the World Series and Soriano was the reason (Like Sabathia and Burnett's starting pitching helped the Yanks), then yes, I would give credit to the Tribune Company for spending. But the Cubs didn't win anything. So what the Cubs do doesn't apply to our conversation.
Changing the subject again. I'm talking about teams that win titles. The 2005 Sox and the 2009 Yankees. You're the one bringing up the Cubs, not me.
You are trying to change my argument from "who deserves credit when a team wins a title" to....."teams only deserve credit when they spend" that's not the point I'm making and you are missing it.
And you can take a shot at Soriano, it doesn't bother me because I don't live and die with the Cubs. And like I said in the last post, I've outgrown the Cubs vs Sox thing.
Give my column a read if you think I'm some Ivy loving Cubs drone. I've been more critical of the Cubs than any Cubs hater could dream to be.
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/heraldnews/sports/2114226,cubs-lackluster-jo032110.article
I had to address this comment because I somehow missed it when reading your post.
If the Cubs won the World Series and Soriano was the reason (Like Sabathia and Burnett's starting pitching helped the Yanks), then yes, I would give credit to the Tribune Company for spending. But the Cubs didn't win anything. So what the Cubs do doesn't apply to our conversation.
Changing the subject again. I'm talking about teams that win titles. The 2005 Sox and the 2009 Yankees. You're the one bringing up the Cubs, not me.
You are trying to change my argument from "who deserves credit when a team wins a title" to....."teams only deserve credit when they spend" that's not the point I'm making and you are missing it.
And you can take a shot at Soriano, it doesn't bother me because I don't live and die with the Cubs. And like I said in the last post, I've outgrown the Cubs vs Sox thing.
Give my column a read if you think I'm some Ivy loving Cubs drone. I've been more critical of the Cubs than any Cubs hater could dream to be.
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/heraldnews/sports/2114226,cubs-lackluster-jo032110.article