so fred,

[houheffna]

If you listen to Sox fans talk about the Sox, you are going to hear pessimism. Sox fans are some of the most pessimistic fans in town, always has been.

Yep, we disagree on Gordon, you can have him...good riddance...nice offensive player...nothing spectacular...doesn't get Bulls any closer to a championship and in the NBA, you don't sign players to big contracts because they are "tradeable". Just not a wise move. I am thinking about championships, and I think you can do better at SG than to sign a player who is not top 10 at his position to some lopsided contract like that. That's just me...

So now Kenny Williams deserves MORE credit...ooooh okay. Got ya, as opposed to your other argument saying that he deserves no credit. JR deserves some credit for all 7 championships, and he does more behind the scenes than given credit for, good and bad. I guess hiring the right people that do the job doesn't count. Who made the decision to give Williams a shot when Schu walked away? Yeah, Michael Jordan is responsible for that too I guess...

How many championships have Jordan won without Reinsdorf and everybody else in that organization? Not one. You are quick to point out when Reinsdorf makes mistakes, and blame him for team failures, but he gets no credit for team successes? That seems a bit skewed and downright unfair to me.

And unless you know Reinsdorf personally, why are you so hellbent on knowing how much money he has and where and when he should spend it? Who said he didn't HAVE the money to spend on the Bulls? They damn near threw themselves at people like crackheads trying to sign players to max contracts over the years. Why you suggest he was somehow lying about available funds to sign players is beyond me...

Reinsdorf deserves credit for those 6 championships then because he KEPT Jordan in town right? Gave him the highest single year salary in sports history...right? According to your theory, which is backwards but its your theory, Krause deserves no credit and Reinsdorf deserves no credit because Jordan did all of it by himself...I don't get your point, you are the one who is inconsistent...

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

If you listen to Sox fans talk about the Sox, you are going to hear pessimism. Sox fans are some of the most pessimistic fans in town, always has been.

That's hasn't been my experience. They had good teams throughout the 90's, not sure why they would be overly pessimistic.

Yep, we disagree on Gordon, you can have him...good riddance...nice offensive player...nothing spectacular...doesn't get Bulls any closer to a championship and in the NBA, you don't sign players to big contracts because they are "tradeable". Just not a wise move. I am thinking about championships, and I think you can do better at SG than to sign a player who is not top 10 at his position to some lopsided contract like that. That's just me...

Never said resign Gordon because he is "tradable" sorry, you're changing what I said. Again.

So now Kenny Williams deserves MORE credit...ooooh okay. Got ya, as opposed to your other argument saying that he deserves no credit. JR deserves some credit for all 7 championships, and he does more behind the scenes than given credit for, good and bad. I guess hiring the right people that do the job doesn't count. Who made the decision to give Williams a shot when Schu walked away? Yeah, Michael Jordan is responsible for that too I guess...

Yep Michael Jordan hired Ken Williams. You read my mind.
Seriously, I'll give JR credit for signing the checks and hiring. If I did say he deserves zero credit, then I'm wrong. He obviously deserves some credit. Did I say during the Ben Gordon Gospel hour that he deserves "zero" credit?

How many championships have Jordan won without Reinsdorf and everybody else in that organization? Not one. You are quick to point out when Reinsdorf makes mistakes, and blame him for team failures, but he gets no credit for team successes? That seems a bit skewed and downright unfair to me.

Silly argument because Jordan never played anywhere else in his prime. If MJ was drafted by the Houston Rockets or the Portland Trailblazers, he would have easily won a title or two.

And unless you know Reinsdorf personally, why are you so hellbent on knowing how much money he has and where and when he should spend it? Who said he didn't HAVE the money to spend on the Bulls? They damn near threw themselves at people like crackheads trying to sign players to max contracts over the years. Why you suggest he was somehow lying about available funds to sign players is beyond me...

Never said I wanted to know how much money he has nor did I suggest he was lying about funds.
The Coyotes thing was in relation to a discussion Doug and I were having. I said JR shouldn't have a problem with going into the luxury tax. Doug's take was that because of the economic climate that going into the tax is easier said than done basically. I disagreed because even in these bad times the Bulls would still make money. Then shortly after me and DT had that discussion the story came out about the Coyotes. So my point was - if the economy doesn't scare JR enough to not try and buy the Coyotes, it shouldn't scare him from going into the luxury tax. But he's cheap when it comes to the Bulls. It's just that simple. And you still haven't answered my question about Horace Grant.

Reinsdorf deserves credit for those 6 championships then because he KEPT Jordan in town right? Gave him the highest single year salary in sports history...right? According to your theory, which is backwards but its your theory, Krause deserves no credit and Reinsdorf deserves no credit because Jordan did all of it by himself...I don't get your point, you are the one who is inconsistent...

No, he doesn't deserve credit for doing the no-brainer thing that made him a ton of money and made his franchise go up x50 in value.
What, was he gonna let Jordan walk? Silliness.

Never once said Jordan did it all by himself. Once again Hou, making up stuff.

I love how you like to take different arguments and mix them all together to try and make your point. But it's not gonna work.

Oh JR, great job in keeping MJ around. Only a complete Special person wouldn't keep Jordan because it was a guaranteed title. So JR should get credit for keeping MJ? Ok, I suppose. Anyone with a brain there first reaction would be no sh*t.

I seem to know your MO Hou. When you get proven wrong on something you just ignore it and take on something you can distort.

Nothing backwards about what I said. I've made my points clear and broke them down. But you'll chose to take on the things you can twist. And ignore my Yankees examples, my Cubs example, my Marlins example, my Horace Grant point etc..

But it's all good Hou, I love going back and forth with you. It keeps me sharp B)

Did you like my Cubs column?

 

[houheffna]

I talked about Horace with you. Horace Grant and Reinsdorf have different stories on the matter. JR was so pissed he held a press conference at night to discuss it. Not like him at all. You trust Horace side to it and you still bitter about that? Horace WANTED to leave. This scenario you use blaming JR for everything is crazy...as if these players, coaches and others have no blame. The same Reinsdorf handed out contract after contract to others, including Kukoc and he trusted Krause's judgment. To the end of that dynasty he was ready to open his wallet for everyone. I cannot believe you going back to when I was 19 years old...

Sox fans are pessimistic and only like to talk about the Cubs and Cubs fans. I am a Sox fan and most Cubs fans will tell you that. Sox fans rub 2005 in Cubs fans faces whenever they get a chance. Attendance drops through the floor at the Cell, doesn't happen like that with other teams, its gradual if at all, but the Sox? People disappear. Cubs fans are the opposite comparable to Sox fans.

You said that Jordan deserved all of the credit, who else? You canceled out Krause and JR, which means you canceled out Jackson, Pippen and everybody else because they would not have been here without Krause and JR. So evidently Jordan did it alone. You discredit the other major players in building a championship team. JR kissed Jordan's ass and went out of his way to make Jordan comfortable for the most part. You wanted Krause and JR to go even farther. I don't see why.



You are back to JR breaking up the franchise in 1998 again. JR kept it together for as long as he could...I gave you the article Sam Smith wrote and you ignored it because it pisses on your parade...so guess what...there is no Santa Claus, no Easter Bunny, no Tooth Fairy, and no demonic JR walking around Berto Center scaring Bulls out of town. Simply not true. Sorry...

Jordan would have won "a title or two"...lol...but with JR, HE WON SIX!!! He could have won more than that but he retired, and JR helped him with that...paid him through his retirement and put him in baseball as Jordan wanted.

I know Jordan is your hero, But he is a part of the breakup of that team too, as well as Phil Jackson and Jerry Krause. Reinsdorf was trying to patch things up. Go back and read that article Sam wrote, genuine inside info from the most credible person on the inner workings of the Bulls we know. I bring out Smith you counter with....Jay Mariotti...seriously...that is like comparing filet mignon to a big mac...

Your arguments have no substance to them, just pure hatred man...that is why I am all over the place to you...what can I say to someone who hates JR for what seems to be 2 decades that the basis of your hatred is just not true? Its JR's fault that Pax didn't do a great job of assembling a team, right? However, JR gets no credit for championship runs, just for futility? That is a horrible, backwards, childish argument that I believe you are better than, because it is just not rational.

You don't know my MO, my MO is kickin your ass in these debates...

At least you are not a basketball Special person...and you let me on your show, all around cool dude....aight enough of that...:laugh:

 

[Kush77]

Well i'll have to have you on again Hou so we can talk about this face to face, or voice to voice.

Here's my take on Jordan so there's no confusion.

The reason JR and Jerry Krause have 6 titles on their resume is because of MICHAEL JORDAN, period. MJ is the reason the Bulls franchise has 6 titles. Not vice versa. Plain and simple.

How do I come to this conclusion? I come to that conclusion based on mistakes the JR/Krause combo has made in the years Jordan wasn't involved in the franchise.

- Let Horace Grant walk. Just pay the money to sign the man. How you defend JR for letting the starting PF from a title team walk is beyond me.
- That same offseason they let Scott Williams go. So they let their 2 best big men walk from a team that won 55 game. Oh, that's great management.
- THEN after not signing two PF that helped your team win 3 titles, you sign a rookie to the biggest deal in team history.
- Before the 94/95 season the JR/Krause combo sign Larry Krystowiak and Ron Harper. Two terrible signings. Brilliant job by your boys! The only reason the Harper signing saved face was because of Michael Jordan came back.
- In the 12 seasons since Jordan retired from the Bulls all the JR/Krause combo has to show for themselves is one playoff series win. and that series win was with Paxson's players, not Krause. If JR is this great owner as you say (because he has 6 titles) then why such little success in the post-Jordan era?

Based on the moves made in the years Jordan hasn't been with the franchise, I've come to the opinion that Michael Jordan is the reason the Bulls have 6 titles.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that, except for you.

You said Jordan could have won 1 or 2, but with JR he won 6. Right. but that wasn't the question you asked. You asked how many titles has Jordan won without JR.

That's a twisted question designed to get an answer that supports your take. The question is obviously none. But Jordan never played anywhere else in his prime. Had he, he would have easily won 1 or 2 titles. And he could have won 6 too.

As for the dynasty, my opinion on the matter has nothing to do with Sam Smith's column. you can keep bringing him up all you want. Sam Smith's column deals with late 1998/1999 only. My opion is based on the entire decade of issues and drama.

At the end of the day, it was years of mismanagement by JR and Krause that lead to a toxic atmosphere in the Bulls organization.

No other dynasty is sports has had an issue like that with the exception of the Jerry Jones/Jimmie Johnson breakup. And that's just the truth.

Never happened with the Lakers or the Celtics or the Spurs. The 2000's Lakers had issues but that was Shaq vs Kobe, not management vs Shaq/Kobe.

It only happened with JR/Krause and the Bulls. Only the Bulls. Just like the song.

You seem to make light of the fact I'm going back in time to pull stuff up (like Horace). There's no statute of limitations on stupidity.

you asked me for example of mistakes made by JR or Krause. And I gave you a list of thing for you to try and defend. Good luck my friend! B)

 

[houheffna]

That's a twisted question designed to get an answer that supports your take. The question is obviously none.

No, thats called "debate skillz" sit down grasshopper, let me school you some more...lol...

Scott Williams? Dude are you serious? Scott Williams? Who gives a damn about Scott Williams and his career 5ppg? Obviously you do...give me a break man...

They signed Kukoc to the richest deal in team history...so much for Reinsdorf being cheap...you call Harper and Larry K horrible signings, but you lament the lost of SCOTT FRIGGIN WILLIAMS? You must still be sleepy man...you call Reinsdorf cheap because he didn't sign Gordon...hell with how he treated other players and people in the organization, he is cheap because of Ben Gordon. That is the pile of crap you are trying to sell me, and you use Horace Grant (as if he isn't culpable at all...) and Williams (that is just sad dude, sad) to support your point. For every Gasol, I can use two or three examples of the Bulls trying to break the bank and sign a player.

Wait, you use the fact that Krause and Reinsdorf didn't win over the course of the last 12 years, but you like to cite Steinbrenner...a lot, like all the damn time...in your sleep. He went damn near 20 years between championships, 15 years between playoff appearances...Cuban has won how many championships?

I think you know better than these cockamamie supa lame arguments you throwing at me would suggest. Reinsdorf deserves some credit, Krause deserves some credit and Pippen and other players deserve some credit for those championships. You can talk about what Jordan could do without Pippen and Krause and everybody else but history, fact shows that Jordan's teams were better once Pippen showed up. He was a part of Jordan winning those championships, a very important, crucial part. You can suggest otherwise, Jordan didn't win his first title until he was 28 years old, 7 seasons into his career. Jordan won championships by himself no more than Magic, Bird or Dr. J did. Magic came into the league winning championships...yet he didn't do it alone. If you want to ignore a hall of fame small forward and the gm that drafted him, just to support your argument that's on you. But you are on your own.

Do you think Jordan could beat those Celtic teams in the 80's by himself? I believe he lost when he played them without Pippen. Think he could of beaten those Lakers teams by himself? The Pistons? I doubt it seriously. Yet you claim the Bulls could beat all of those teams, and you even suggested Pippen could handle Bird and Magic in their primes, or at least give them a hard time. But then again Jordan won those championships by himself and he was the sole reason they won. I wonder if the Rockets fans talk like this after Olajuwon left...because its senseless.

Then you go back to the Reinsdorf destroyed the franchise stuff...like I said before, Reinsdorf was the one trying to hold that thing together. Krause had a very nice deal on the table for Pippen and JR said no. I have shown you that and you ignored it...the best explanation as to what really happened by the most reliable source on the Chicago Bulls alive. But it doesn't support your theory so you dismissed it.

Since 1998, they haven't gotten a Jordan or a Pippen, eventhough Pippen came back he was no good. They do have a Rose now, and I believe Reinsdorf is trying to make things happen because the team finally has something to work with. But I don't think its unfair to ask you and others to be fair of your assessments of the Bulls and ALL of the people involved including your idea of perfection in every way...Michael Jordan.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

That's a twisted question designed to get an answer that supports your take. The question is obviously none.

No, thats called "debate skillz" sit down grasshopper, let me school you some more...lol...

Scott Williams? Dude are you serious? Scott Williams? Who gives a damn about Scott Williams and his career 5ppg? Obviously you do...give me a break man...

Scott Williams was their second best PF. The backup to Horace Grant. The second best rebounder as well. So you lose Grant and then you let Williams walk too. What was the biggest problem with the 94-95 Bulls? Why did they end up losing to Orlando? Rebounding and interior D. They had none because they let Grant and Williams go in the same year.

I suppose you think it's smart to let all of your Poward Forwards walk in the same offseason?

They signed Kukoc to the richest deal in team history...so much for Reinsdorf being cheap...you call Harper and Larry K horrible signings, but you lament the lost of SCOTT FRIGGIN WILLIAMS? You must still be sleepy man...you call Reinsdorf cheap because he didn't sign Gordon...hell with how he treated other players and people in the organization, he is cheap because of Ben Gordon. That is the pile of crap you are trying to sell me, and you use Horace Grant (as if he isn't culpable at all...) and Williams (that is just sad dude, sad) to support your point. For every Gasol, I can use two or three examples of the Bulls trying to break the bank and sign a player.

Making a 2nd year player the richest man in team history is stupid. I would have rather spent the money on Horace Grant.

Please explain to me the logic in letting your starting PF go (who helped you win 3 titles) but you open the checkbook for Kukoc. Oh, because Kukoc was Krause's pet. you wonder why players disliked management. It's moves like that.

Wait, you use the fact that Krause and Reinsdorf didn't win over the course of the last 12 years, but you like to cite Steinbrenner...a lot, like all the damn time...in your sleep. He went damn near 20 years between championships, 15 years between playoff appearances...Cuban has won how many championships?

Ah, once again combining arguments to try and make your point.

The basketball and baseball titles are different. As you know, much harder to win titles in baseball. Before the Wildcard, much harder to even make the playoffs in baseball. So an MLB team going 20 years without making the playoffs isn't uncommon.
I'm not ripping JR for his lack of success with the Sox. 1 title in 30 years of ownership. Not bad. It's hard to win in baseball. The Twins won 2 titles in the last 30 years. A bunch of teams haven't won at all or only 1 title.

But in basketball, I gave you a list of bad moves JR/Krause have made when Jordan was gone. They haven't done well. But you can't admit it.

I think you know better than these cockamamie supa lame arguments you throwing at me would suggest. Reinsdorf deserves some credit, Krause deserves some credit and Pippen and other players deserve some credit for those championships. You can talk about what Jordan could do without Pippen and Krause and everybody else but history, fact shows that Jordan's teams were better once Pippen showed up. He was a part of Jordan winning those championships, a very important, crucial part. You can suggest otherwise, Jordan didn't win his first title until he was 28 years old, 7 seasons into his career. Jordan won championships by himself no more than Magic, Bird or Dr. J did. Magic came into the league winning championships...yet he didn't do it alone. If you want to ignore a hall of fame small forward and the gm that drafted him, just to support your argument that's on you. But you are on your own.

Do you think Jordan could beat those Celtic teams in the 80's by himself? I believe he lost when he played them without Pippen. Think he could of beaten those Lakers teams by himself? The Pistons? I doubt it seriously. Yet you claim the Bulls could beat all of those teams, and you even suggested Pippen could handle Bird and Magic in their primes, or at least give them a hard time. But then again Jordan won those championships by himself and he was the sole reason they won. I wonder if the Rockets fans talk like this after Olajuwon left...because its senseless.

The miscomunication we seem to be having here is you are taking my comment 100% literally.

OF COURSE I know MJ can't beat a team 5 on 1. You don't need to tell me who deserves credit on the Bulls teams. I watched the games.

When I say Jordan is the reason the Bulls have 6 titles I mean - if Jordan was never drafted by the Bulls I highly doubt JR and Krause would have titles, let alone 6.

And I feel that way based on the bad moves made by JR/Krause when Jordan was gone. Gone for the 18 months in 93-95 and after 1998.

And it just doesn't have to be Championships Hou. The Bulls only have 1 playoff series win in 12 years. That's not good. The Atlanta Hawks have won more playoff series since 1998. I would expect more from the great JR and Krause.

Then you go back to the Reinsdorf destroyed the franchise stuff...like I said before, Reinsdorf was the one trying to hold that thing together. Krause had a very nice deal on the table for Pippen and JR said no. I have shown you that and you ignored it...the best explanation as to what really happened by the most reliable source on the Chicago Bulls alive. But it doesn't support your theory so you dismissed it.

I don't care what Sam Smith said happened in 1999 or late 1998.
MJ said all along that he would only play for Phil Jackson.
JR/Krause didn't bring back Phil Jackson, Jordan wasn't bluffing and he retired. End of story.

I agree that Jordan wasn't run out of town. I agreed with you on that when you were on the show remember. I said "if I stated it that way I was wrong" because if MJ decided to play for Floyd or whoever, then he would have forced JR's hand and he would have had to bring everyone back.

Bu had there actually been a GOOD relationship between Phil and management, it would have been easier for Phil to come back. But JR/Krause didn't make it happen. And they could have.

Now you'll try to say Phil was done with it anyway. Well he was probably sick of all the drama and garbage with management. The whole players vs. management deal.

Why was this even an issue? Because management let it be.

The problem started WELL before 1998, that's my point. You like to make it seem like everything took place in 1998. What Sam Smith wrote is technically right. If MJ had a presser and said "I want to play in 1999" the JR would of had his hand forced.
But they let Phil walk. If they really wanted to get Phil back, the could have.

Why would Phil have been pissed at the Bulls??? Oh I don't know, they started grooming his replacement while he was still the damn coach.

Just another example of JR and Krause's lack of management/people skills.

Since 1998, they haven't gotten a Jordan or a Pippen, eventhough Pippen came back he was no good. They do have a Rose now, and I believe Reinsdorf is trying to make things happen because the team finally has something to work with. But I don't think its unfair to ask you and others to be fair of your assessments of the Bulls and ALL of the people involved including your idea of perfection in every way...Michael Jordan.

No, 100% wrong.

I don't expect the Bulls to ever win 6 titles again. I'm not measuring JR's success by the 90's, that would be unfair.

But I'm sorry, 1 playoff series win in 12 years doesn't knock my socks off. Does it for you?

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

That's a twisted question designed to get an answer that supports your take. The question is obviously none.

No, thats called "debate skillz" sit down grasshopper, let me school you some more...lol...

LOL, yes it is.

But you're not schooling me because I know what you're trying to do ole wise one! B)

 

[houheffna]

I don't care what Sam Smith said happened in 1999 or late 1998.

Of course you don't care, because you can't handle the truth!!!

The Kukoc thing is outdated and silly...Kukoc helped the team win 3 championships, especially the last one. He was one player worth going after. Reinsdorf said he had a deal on the table, Horace said there was no such deal, and I guess you second that. I didn't know you were Horace's agent. Your using those examples shows an overwhelming amount of pettiness. Pettiness that has an expiration tag, they expired 15 years and 3 championships ago. Its like the Cubs and the Lou Brock trade...actually that makes a bit more sense because it was a HOFer, but then again the Cubs fans don't mention that trade much. I guess they got over it, maybe you will get over Grant in 15-20 years.

Another outrageous argument that makes me want to sic 100 angry chimpanzees on posters to this forum, either Reinsdorf is cheap, or he is not. You say he is cheap because he doesn't let YOU spend his money...thank God! Didn't Reinsdorf pay Jordan in one year more than Kukoc's whole contract? My goodness man, make up your mind! The Bulls spent more money than anyone else in the 1990's on their team.

The miscomunication we seem to be having here is you are taking my comment 100% literally.

OF COURSE I know MJ can't beat a team 5 on 1. You don't need to tell me who deserves credit on the Bulls teams. I watched the games.

When I say Jordan is the reason the Bulls have 6 titles I mean - if Jordan was never drafted by the Bulls I highly doubt JR and Krause would have titles, let alone 6.

And I feel that way based on the bad moves made by JR/Krause when Jordan was gone. Gone for the 18 months in 93-95 and after 1998.

And it just doesn't have to be Championships Hou. The Bulls only have 1 playoff series win in 12 years. That's not good. The Atlanta Hawks have won more playoff series since 1998. I would expect more from the great JR and Krause.

So because they didn't win over the last 10 years...they suck. But winning 6 championships before that...they had nothing to do with that...Krause deserves no credit for Pippen, HOFer, for Phil Jackson, HOFer...none of that, and in a decade in which they dominated the sports world, you point out Horace Grant and Kukoc, ignoring any of the positive things Krause and JR have done...damn shame.

Management and Coaches don't always get along. It happens all of the time. And as I have said before, both sides were culpable. However, I acknowledge Krause's part in antagonizing the coaches and players because he was a control freak, but you won't acknowledge any wrongdoing by Jackson, Jordan or any of the other personnel. Your argument is that Krause should have kissed Jordan's ass more...f--- that!!! Phil and Krause had problems WAAAAAAY before Floyd showed up. Give me a break man, Phil was talking about quitting before Jordan even made his comeback. So maybe his threats, year after year, Brett Favre style, tired the Bulls out. So they were grooming his replacement. Kind of like they did with Doug Collins and Phil Jackson? And wasn't Phil, Jerry's mole on that coaching staff? And who helped get Doug fired?


You can't ignore history just to make a point and think its going to work...Not happening...

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

I don't care what Sam Smith said happened in 1999 or late 1998.

Of course you don't care, because you can't handle the truth!!!

I can handle the truth. Just acknowledged it in my last post when I said - "Sam SMith is technically right." technically right in the sense that if MJ forced JR's hand that the team would have been back in 1999. but the damage was already done.
Again, Sam is addressing what took place in late 98, early 99, that's it. the damage was done over the previous decade.

The Kukoc thing is outdated and silly...Kukoc helped the team win 3 championships, especially the last one. He was one player worth going after. Reinsdorf said he had a deal on the table, Horace said there was no such deal, and I guess you second that. I didn't know you were Horace's agent. Your using those examples shows an overwhelming amount of pettiness. Pettiness that has an expiration tag, they expired 15 years and 3 championships ago. Its like the Cubs and the Lou Brock trade...actually that makes a bit more sense because it was a HOFer, but then again the Cubs fans don't mention that trade much. I guess they got over it, maybe you will get over Grant in 15-20 years.

You keep saying things are outdated or old. I'm going back in time. you asked me to give you examples of mistakes I think JR/Krause made. So I'm giving you examples. Do you only want examples from the 2000s????

I'm also over the Horace Grant. I got over pretty much when Jordan came back. And especially after a 72-10 year. BUT AGAIN, you asked for examples, so I'm giving them to you.

The only time I seem to talk about Horace Grant is with you, so I'm good.

Another outrageous argument that makes me want to sic 100 angry chimpanzees on posters to this forum, either Reinsdorf is cheap, or he is not. You say he is cheap because he doesn't let YOU spend his money...thank God! Didn't Reinsdorf pay Jordan in one year more than Kukoc's whole contract? My goodness man, make up your mind! The Bulls spent more money than anyone else in the 1990's on their team.

You make every argument so black and white. There's no in between with you Hou.

I'm aware JR paid MJ 33 and 36 million in consecutive years. So because of that you think JR isn't cheap. But that just a simplistic way to look at it. Why was JR willing to pay 33 and 36 million. Because it was the greatest player of all-time and it resulted in championships, that resulted in even more money. A good business move by a business man.

JR will spend when a team is already winning. Like he did with the 2005 Sox. That's a great example actually. You know I always talk about how JR didn't give Kenny a blank check to sign players before 2005. My opinion is that Kenny did well with a limited budget. AJ, Iguchi were not blockbuster signings. And he traded Lee for Podsednik, which might have actually cut payroll. so JR didn't splurge on a team that hadn't won.

But he did after the team won. He gave Konerko his contract. And he also resigned Buehrle and Dye, which I thought wasn't gonna happen. and trading Rowand for Thome increased the payroll. But there was a reason for JR to spend. He thought the Sox had a chance to be a perennial contender. And since he got results (2005) he was willing to spend. So I know JR spends, it when he spends.

Going by your black and white logic no owner is cheap. The Pirates' payroll is probably 30 million or so. Everyone would say the organization is cheap. But according to your logic - he spending 30 mil, that's not cheap. I'm I off with that?

But JR won't spend to make a team better unless it a rare player. They have their chance this year, we'll see what happens.

The Bulls spent more money than anyone else in the 1990's on their team.
Right, because they were winning titles. There was incentive for Jerry to spend.

Here's my question to you Hou. And it will determine if Jerry is cheap or not. The cap space is there. We know this.
So if the Bulls don't get the Big 3 or 4 if you throw in Amare, will JR spend for Joe Johnson if he wants the max. Will JR go head to head with the NYs or NJs for players that weren't at the top tier? Guys like Boozer and Lee and Johnson?

The Bulls have been selling fans on this 2010 plan right? Will Jerry bring in a FA to make the team better, even if it's not the Big 3? Or will he just let the team sit as is and go after a cheaper option like Jermaine O'Neal?

That will answer our question.

So because they didn't win over the last 10 years...they suck. But winning 6 championships before that...they had nothing to do with that...Krause deserves no credit for Pippen, HOFer, for Phil Jackson, HOFer...none of that, and in a decade in which they dominated the sports world, you point out Horace Grant and Kukoc, ignoring any of the positive things Krause and JR have done...damn shame.

I didn't say the suck. I just said 1 playoff series win in 12 seasons doesn't knock my socks off. They haven't sucked, they had some good seasons. But if JR and Krause, were so good at building a 6-title winner, shouldn't they have more to show than just 1 series win in 12 years??

Management and Coaches don't always get along. It happens all of the time.

Oh, I know. But it usually doesn't happen to the degree it happened with Krause and Phil. And it usually doesn't happen with teams that win multiple titles. The only one I could think of is Jones/Johnson with Dallas.
I think you once mentioned billy Martin and Steinbrenner (I just love the Boss you know :lol but even Steinbrenner rehired Martin a couple times. I could never see Krause rehiring Phil lol. That would be great.

And as I have said before, both sides were culpable. However, I acknowledge Krause's part in antagonizing the coaches and players because he was a control freak, but you won't acknowledge any wrongdoing by Jackson, Jordan or any of the other personnel. Your argument is that Krause should have kissed Jordan's ass more...f--- that!!! Phil and Krause had problems WAAAAAAY before Floyd showed up. Give me a break man, Phil was talking about quitting before Jordan even made his comeback. So maybe his threats, year after year, Brett Favre style, tired the Bulls out. So they were grooming his replacement. Kind of like they did with Doug Collins and Phil Jackson? And wasn't Phil, Jerry's mole on that coaching staff? And who helped get Doug fired?

Doug Collins didn't win 6 titles. You don't groom a replacement for a coach that helped your team win 6 titles. that's just poor management and bad people skills. But you've acknowledged that.

as for kissing Jordan's ass. Uh, yeah. He's the greatest player off all time. If he wants to play for Phil, I do everything in my power to get Phil to come back. They didn't do that.

I'll throw this out there. What if Lebron came out and said "I just want to play for Mike Brown and Mike Brown only." Would Danny Ferry keeping Mike Brown (or ass kissing) be a bad thing to do??

You can't ignore history just to make a point and think its going to work...Not happening...

I'm not ignoring history. I feel I have a pretty good grasp on what happened.

Check your email when you get a minute.