Sweet Spot Blog: Who's better: White Sox versus Cubs

CSF77

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If you were to weigh the value of the bullpen, what would you say a bullpens worth is relative to a #1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 starter?

It is hard to define that question as they hold diffrent roles on the team and each role has value.

A strong pen can shorten games. Take the Pads. That has been their strong suit for years now. They have run starters out there for 6 innings and had a strong pen that shuts down the other team. That pen has been developed from with in and gives more value for the $$$ spent.

But you would have to look at WAR I would guess to find an answer.
 

CSF77

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Rondon: 1.5WAR
Strop: 1.0 WAR
Villanueva: 1.1 WAR
Ramirez: .8 WAR
Schlitter: .2 WAR
Grimm: .6 WAR
Wright: .2 WAR

5.4 WAR out of them last year.

This year: Rondon, Strop, Ramirez, Motte, Grimm, Wada, Doubront...add Jackson to that. They are 8 deep here. You are looking at 5-6 WAR IMO in combined value.
 

Bear Pride

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Ok. But you didn't answer the question.

I answered it as about as detailed as I thought the question deserved if you must know. If you expected me to give a value, which you didn't define, for each spot, w/o knowing the final rotation or relief positions, then I probably shouldn't have answered at all. Seriously, what exactly were you expecting here?
 

2323

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It is hard to define that question as they hold diffrent roles on the team and each role has value.

A strong pen can shorten games. Take the Pads. That has been their strong suit for years now. They have run starters out there for 6 innings and had a strong pen that shuts down the other team. That pen has been developed from with in and gives more value for the $$$ spent.

But you would have to look at WAR I would guess to find an answer.

It's very true it's case specific. I used to have conversations about this in general terms with an acquaintance but I presented here moreso as it pertains to the Cubs since he was kind of drilling into the Cubs pitching staff.

But yeah, when we'd discuss this, I would say a good bullpen is worth a good (not great) # 3 starter. He said a #4. But this was before the playoffs last year. There's a lot to be learned from last years World Series including where this topic is concerned. The Royals had one of the best bullpen tandems in the history of the game. It held up its end in game 7 but, in the end a stud #1 (eg B'garner) proved to be more valuable. But a #1 who pitches up to it, not like what happened with Kershaw. And maybe a second #1 (as your #2) like Greinke. But beyond that, it's hard to put a higher value on something more than that KC bullpen. There wasn't one pitcher in the Royals starting rotation that was more valuable than the Royals bullpen, except maybe Ventura. And that's a big maybe.

Few teams have pitching like what you see in the PO. That's typically why teams go far in the playoffs. So, can you take this exercise of comparing the Royals bullpen to different aces, can you then put it to scale when evaluating the non playoff teams. In other words, if a team has a "good" bullpen and "good" 2s, 3s, and 4s, does the ranking end up being similar? It might be skewed since KCs bullpen was such an outlier.

I think this is an interesting discussion. I feel if someone has a solid handle on this, it could provide insight into where the game will go in the future. You sometimes hear about, down the road, teams going to shifts (like hockey) where over a game, one pitcher gets one time through the batting order. Perhaps it will. Or perhaps it will only on teams that lack a true ace. But to get a sense of it, starts with properly valuing the relative importance of each.
 

2323

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I answered it as about as detailed as I thought the question deserved if you must know. If you expected me to give a value, which you didn't define, for each spot, w/o knowing the final rotation or relief positions, then I probably shouldn't have answered at all. Seriously, what exactly were you expecting here?

You didn't understand what was being asked. But it's ok. I'm not banging on you for it. I've moved on.
 

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If you were to weigh the value of the bullpen, what would you say a bullpens worth is relative to a #1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 starter?
LMRP is a #3, MRP is a 3/4, 7,8 inning RP are a #2 and the closer is a #1. Note: Not the MRP/Late inning RP who are simply spot duty, matchup relievers. Those are worth a #5 or perhaps a AAAA rating. Is that close to what you're looking for?
 

brett05

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It's very true it's case specific. I used to have conversations about this in general terms with an acquaintance but I presented here moreso as it pertains to the Cubs since he was kind of drilling into the Cubs pitching staff.

But yeah, when we'd discuss this, I would say a good bullpen is worth a good (not great) # 3 starter. He said a #4. But this was before the playoffs last year. There's a lot to be learned from last years World Series including where this topic is concerned. The Royals had one of the best bullpen tandems in the history of the game. It held up its end in game 7 but, in the end a stud #1 (eg B'garner) proved to be more valuable. But a #1 who pitches up to it, not like what happened with Kershaw. And maybe a second #1 (as your #2) like Greinke. But beyond that, it's hard to put a higher value on something more than that KC bullpen. There wasn't one pitcher in the Royals starting rotation that was more valuable than the Royals bullpen, except maybe Ventura. And that's a big maybe.

Few teams have pitching like what you see in the PO. That's typically why teams go far in the playoffs. So, can you take this exercise of comparing the Royals bullpen to different aces, can you then put it to scale when evaluating the non playoff teams. In other words, if a team has a "good" bullpen and "good" 2s, 3s, and 4s, does the ranking end up being similar? It might be skewed since KCs bullpen was such an outlier.

I think this is an interesting discussion. I feel if someone has a solid handle on this, it could provide insight into where the game will go in the future. You sometimes hear about, down the road, teams going to shifts (like hockey) where over a game, one pitcher gets one time through the batting order. Perhaps it will. Or perhaps it will only on teams that lack a true ace. But to get a sense of it, starts with properly valuing the relative importance of each.

Wade, Duffy and Shields by bWAR were more valuable than Ventura. Without one of them minus perhaps Davis there is no playoffs for the Royals.
 

2323

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LMRP is a #3, MRP is a 3/4, 7,8 inning RP are a #2 and the closer is a #1. Note: Not the MRP/Late inning RP who are simply spot duty, matchup relievers. Those are worth a #5 or perhaps a AAAA rating. Is that close to what you're looking for?

I'm not sure it's best to look at it by breaking it up like that. How does ones WAR change if their usage also changes. In theory, it shouldn't matter but I'm not sure it really works that way. Guys respond differently to different situation. I'm not sure you can take micro level data and apply it to all situations, especially considering mgrs are often looking for an optimum combinations. Roles are, to a large extent, defined as part of macro level analysis. So I'm not sure you can look at this as an exercise of plugging in WARs.

It's probably better to take 3-5 guys, depending on the team, and look at a group of guys a manager heavily relied on over the course of a season. Most likely 3-5 will account for enough innings per game to serve as a decent basis for comparing that teams 1-5 starters individually. I think you run into problems crossing over and commingling data with that of other teams. Do this from team team. In doing this, it should give a way of looking seeing it better from a macro level. If say, the 3-5 relievers collectively have values stronger than the typical 2, 3, 4, or 5 that's a better way to get a feel for the value of a bullpen.
 

2323

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Wade, Duffy and Shields by bWAR were more valuable than Ventura. Without one of them minus perhaps Davis there is no playoffs for the Royals.

A huge flaw in this is relevant range.
 

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I'm not sure it's best to look at it by breaking it up like that. How does ones WAR change if their usage also changes. In theory, it shouldn't matter but I'm not sure it really works that way. Guys respond differently to different situation. I'm not sure you can take micro level data and apply it to all situations, especially considering mgrs are often looking for an optimum combinations. Roles are, to a large extent, defined as part of macro level analysis. So I'm not sure you can look at this as an exercise of plugging in WARs.

It's probably better to take 3-5 guys, depending on the team, and look at a group of guys a manager heavily relied on over the course of a season. Most likely 3-5 will account for enough innings per game to serve as a decent basis for comparing that teams 1-5 starters individually. I think you run into problems crossing over and commingling data with that of other teams. Do this from team team. In doing this, it should give a way of looking seeing it better from a macro level. If say, the 3-5 relievers collectively have values stronger than the typical 2, 3, 4, or 5 that's a better way to get a feel for the value of a bullpen.
I don't know. It should be well known who the long relievers are and AFAIK, Ramirez, Strop and Rondon are the back end without question. Perhaps with the way you look at things, you could look at the group of relievers who are primarily used with matchups, the group primarily used as long relief and the relievers used at the back end of the game to close the door so to speak.
 

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What are we talking about here?
 

chibears55

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What happened to the simpler days of wheather or not they just get the job done and get people out.. I think some of you get to deep into these numbers, when its all said and done it boils down to results. . Did they get hitters out or not
 

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Arrieta has a lot to prove. penciling him in as a lock is premature when you look at his full career.


Sent from My Iphone 6 Plus Using Tapatalk

"The top three is solid, especially if Arrieta is legit."

....
 

DJMoore_is_fat

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The WS will probably win more games and be generally better in 2015 -- but I'd pick the Cubs future over the WS by a mile. We have a better FO, better manager, better farm system, and, quite frankly, will probably have the best overall player in Kris Bryant.

I think Hahn is a bright guy who will do well as a GM but his moves have been primarily win-now. La Roche, Cabrera, the Shark, etc. After this season will they really match a $140M offer for the Sharkl? And at that point Cabrera and La Roche will be older so who in 2016 is likely to be better?

The Cubs are gearing up for a 6-8 year run starting in 2016. Would not be surprised to see us nab another SP1 next off-season and make the playoffs consistently for the better part of a decade. Honestly I think we'll break through a win the World Series some time between 2016 and 2020.
 

brett05

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The WS will probably win more games and be generally better in 2015 -- but I'd pick the Cubs future over the WS by a mile. We have a better FO, better manager, better farm system, and, quite frankly, will probably have the best overall player in Kris Bryant.
Better front office? So far that would be the White Sox not that it couldn't change.
Better manager? No question, Cubs.
Better Farm? No Question, Cubs.
Best Player Overall? Chris Sale laughs at your suggestion.
Better club now at the major league level? White Sox
Going forward? Hard to say as both teams are pretty much equal on the youth trail.
 

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Better front office? So far that would be the White Sox not that it couldn't change.
I think both FO are solid fits for both teams. It's a push and not in a poorly written article sort of way.
Better manager? No question, Cubs.
Yes.
Better Farm? No Question, Cubs.
Agreed.
Best Player Overall? Chris Sale laughs at your suggestion.
I would never consider a pitcher as a "best player overall". They are only out there once every five days. The deal would be Abreu against any other every day Cubs player and since Bryant hasn't played one game at the MLB level, it couldn't be him.
Better club now at the major league level? White Sox
This year? Could be. Too many unknowns for the Cubs fans to bank on.
Going forward? Hard to say as both teams are pretty much equal on the youth trail.
That should be exciting for all Chicago fans, but unfortunately, as we know from other discussions here recently, some people just don't feel the same way.
 

DJMoore_is_fat

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Better front office? So far that would be the White Sox not that it couldn't change.
Better manager? No question, Cubs.
Better Farm? No Question, Cubs.
Best Player Overall? Chris Sale laughs at your suggestion.
Better club now at the major league level? White Sox
Going forward? Hard to say as both teams are pretty much equal on the youth trail.

You are serious? The White Sox FO hasn't proven anything. At least the Cubs FO have won two WS and had their finger prints all over a third. And we'll see in two-three years who the better overall player is. Chris Sale or Kris Bryant.

I've book marked this post to pull up so we can revisit your statements.
 

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