The Last Dance Thread

[Granada]

But, like I said, that's always who Pip was. I thought it made him look better honestly. Most times, everyone came to bat for him. MJ didn't say he was lying about the migraine. Everyone believed he was telling the truth. Even the last shot thing, everyone came to bat for him. The only time MJ called him selfish was waiting for the surgery, but if I recall, he said he understood. I just think Pip is being Pip, quite honestly.

That's fair. I just think that maybe Pippen felt like that stuff (about him) didn't need to be rehashed and he didn't appreciate it being made public again after all these years -- I'm not saying he's right to feel that way, but I can see why it would tick him off.

 

[greg23]

Let's recap ....since episode 10 ended:

Horace is pissed
Scottie is pissed
Jerry Sloan died
Patrick Ewing is in the hospital with Covid 19

 

[anotheridiot]

well, as much as I liked scottie pippen the player, understood the time off after playing 6 years of that contract for basically 3 million a year and that 7th was free, he lost alot with me with that claim he was fired from his bulls gig after his contract ran out. Scottie moved to LA, his kid is at the high school with all the superstar kids, he did not want to keep flying back here for appearances. Contract was done and he did not resign, chose to stay in LA with his podcast and show appearances.
The only dig I consider him making was saying Krause was the greatest GM of all time.

 

[DrGonzo]

Calling Krause the best GM of all time is called taking the high road and it was smart of Pippen say it when everyone knows he got hosed. He should have just left it at that.

Calling Jordan a liar is not a good look for Grant. If he just said "I remember some things differently from Michael" he'd be a lot more sympathetic.

 

[Enasic]

Calling Krause the best GM of all time is called taking the high road and it was smart of Pippen say it when everyone knows he got hosed. He should have just left it at that.

Calling Jordan a liar is not a good look for Grant. If he just said "I remember some things differently from Michael" he'd be a lot more sympathetic.

I’d rather guys be honest and call a spade a spade if that’s how they feel. Jordan is a dick. This has been known for decades now. Great basketball player. Not so great as a person. The backlash is no surprise.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

Calling Krause the best GM of all time is called taking the high road and it was smart of Pippen say it when everyone knows he got hosed. He should have just left it at that.

Calling Jordan a liar is not a good look for Grant. If he just said "I remember some things differently from Michael" he'd be a lot more sympathetic.

Did he call him a liar or say it was all from his own perspective and made to paint him in only a positive light? Think Grant was alluding to a more dickish teammate he knew than that which was portrayed in the documentary.

 

[mecha]

what Grant is getting at about Jordan having final say in what went into the documentary is probably true. when I watched the first 4 episodes I figured ok, 2 of them were for Jordan, one was for Rodman, and then I think 4 was for Pippen or rather exposing Pippen's past wrongdoings. when I watched the remaining 6 episodes and it was all about Jordan then it made sense what Grant's alluding to. it's cool they went into depth on an otherwise highly private person, but it was more about Jordan rather than the last season of the Bulls dynasty and flashbacks to previous events that got them there.

the perception of Jordan got dinged, but Pippen got dinged worse. over some things that happened a long time ago. they were mistakes, acknowledged as mistakes, and were dealt with. shade didn't need to get thrown at him over ancient history; Jordan's image throughout that period was squeaky clean, albeit with stories about bad things thrown in. that's the difference between the two. and Jordan can say he believed the migraine thing was real, that's not what I took away from it. they at least redeemed Pippen being supposedly soft in game 6 of Jazz II, but I can see how he felt slighted by how he was portrayed.

 

[truthbedamned]

2nd episode.
When you speak the name Michael Jordan you need to speak the name Scottie Pippen
Pretty much says it all

 

[Enasic]

The overall message I got out of the whole thing is people need to stop blindly worshipping athletes and celebrities. Enjoy the art and the game. But most of these guys aren’t role models. It’s ok. Most people in general aren’t role models. Not all talented people are great people.

 

[85Bears&Bulls]

what Grant is getting at about Jordan having final say in what went into the documentary is probably true. when I watched the first 4 episodes I figured ok, 2 of them were for Jordan, one was for Rodman, and then I think 4 was for Pippen or rather exposing Pippen's past wrongdoings. when I watched the remaining 6 episodes and it was all about Jordan then it made sense what Grant's alluding to. it's cool they went into depth on an otherwise highly private person, but it was more about Jordan rather than the last season of the Bulls dynasty and flashbacks to previous events that got them there.

the perception of Jordan got dinged, but Pippen got dinged worse. over some things that happened a long time ago. they were mistakes, acknowledged as mistakes, and were dealt with. shade didn't need to get thrown at him over ancient history; Jordan's image throughout that period was squeaky clean, albeit with stories about bad things thrown in. that's the difference between the two. and Jordan can say he believed the migraine thing was real, that's not what I took away from it. they at least redeemed Pippen being supposedly soft in game 6 of Jazz II, but I can see how he felt slighted by how he was portrayed.

I think less people would have had a problem with it if it was billed the "Michael Jordan's Last Dance" documentary.
But calling it the "Last Dance" and then marketing it as the documentary of the 90s Bulls made it seem like the definitive Bulls anthology.

We all love MJ, but I think after Sam Smith's Jordan Rules none of this is surprising.

MJ's rationale for bullying Jerry is that it was all because Jerry was misquoted on his quote " that organizations win championships, not players " “Players and coaches alone don't win championships; organizations do. ) doesn't hold much water either as we've seen how MJ will make up narrative's (LaBradford Smith) to reach his goals.

MJ seems to say the misquote doesn't matter because players just deserve most of the credit, anyway. If you extrapolate that logic to the team then MJ deserves most of the credit for the 6 rings and the supporting case not much credit (like Krause). And that seems to be the story arc when Pippen, Horace, Kerr and others are all discounted. They were just there and all of them were replaceable (Rodman for Grant, Kerr for Paxson, Luc Longley for Bill Cartwright, Stacey King for Granville Waiters) and the one other constant Pippen had to be overcome because of his not showing up in big games (Detroit migraine, Refusing to come off the bench game, Backspasm game 6 vs Utah).

 

[85Bears&Bulls]

what Grant is getting at about Jordan having final say in what went into the documentary is probably true. when I watched the first 4 episodes I figured ok, 2 of them were for Jordan, one was for Rodman, and then I think 4 was for Pippen or rather exposing Pippen's past wrongdoings. when I watched the remaining 6 episodes and it was all about Jordan then it made sense what Grant's alluding to. it's cool they went into depth on an otherwise highly private person, but it was more about Jordan rather than the last season of the Bulls dynasty and flashbacks to previous events that got them there.

the perception of Jordan got dinged, but Pippen got dinged worse. over some things that happened a long time ago. they were mistakes, acknowledged as mistakes, and were dealt with. shade didn't need to get thrown at him over ancient history; Jordan's image throughout that period was squeaky clean, albeit with stories about bad things thrown in. that's the difference between the two. and Jordan can say he believed the migraine thing was real, that's not what I took away from it. they at least redeemed Pippen being supposedly soft in game 6 of Jazz II, but I can see how he felt slighted by how he was portrayed.

With Pippen I think this series magnified his mistakes. These were kind of inhouse things to Bulls fans who followed the team from Pippen's arrival in 87 through the 6 rings.

But now the world (and especially new young viewers who have never seen the Bulls) sees this string of mistakes, and so that is Pippen's legacy. Instead of focusing thing on his innate talent more. For example they could have shown how Pippen may have been the best defensive stopper of all time with more examples. Like how Phil switched Pippen onto NBA veteran great point guard Mark Jackson and Pippen completely shutdown Mark Jackson to the point where it looked like an NBA player vs a high school player. That move single handedly disrupted the Pacers system and team and they had to adjust by playing Travis Best more to get back into the series.

It was actually embarrassing for Mark Jackson because he couldn't do anything with Pippen on him, but that was how good Pippen was defensively guarding multiple positions. The same thing happened against Finals Lakers, they put Pippen on Magic and that was all she wrote for the series.

 

[85Bears&Bulls]

Calling Jordan a liar is not a good look for Grant. If he just said "I remember some things differently from Michael" he'd be a lot more sympathetic.

I have no problem with Horace calling him a liar. MJ accused Horace of being "the snitch" for Jordan Rules. If Horace is actually innocent of that then you can't just say I remember some things differently about being a snitch than Michael". The nature of the "Snitch" accusations can only be met with calling MJ a liar on that subject.

 

[85Bears&Bulls]

The more interesting debate is that Krause wanted to trade Pippen after the 97 season and had a deal in place with Boston for two 1st and Reinsdorf nixed it.

Reportedly he would have used those two picks on Tracy McGrady and Ron Mercer....who were available at those slots.

The 97 draft generally sucked after #1 pick Tim Duncan and these two might have been two of the top 4 in that draft (with Chauncey Billups)

So

An aging Pippen for 1 more year that nets the bulls a title

For

Mercer and McGrady...and who knows what would have happened in 98; but post 98 would sure look a hell of a lot better with those two than what actually occurred

That was one of the worst draft classes.
Outside of Duncan, Billups and McGrady, I would consider the rest of the first round busts. (And even with Billups he was considered a busts who the Celtics gave up on and was traded about 5 times before he finally figured out how to play at an All Star caliber).

Even if Krause had gotten the one gem (McGrady), T-Mac would have only been an amazing complimentary piece to a Jordan type #1. Since T-Mac was a high school kid and not a 4 year adult from NAIA Central Arkansas, he wouldn't have been able to contribute till year 3 in 99-00 and year 4 00-02 is when he fully blossomed. So I can't see Jordan sticking around waiting 3-4 years to get NBA all star level T-Mac. Bulls also likely do not win ring 6 since T-Mac's rookie year was 97-98 and he contributed nothing that year.

Ron Mercer was a complete bust. Billed the top high school player in the nation, he never lived up to that billing at Kentucky and was a NBA journeyman type at the highest level. A dime a dozen type player.

 

[85Bears&Bulls]

In this one thing, I believe Reinsdorf did invite Phil back for one more year. Reinsdorf just doesn't come across like a liar to me. Phil was probably burnt out and without any reassurances of which players were coming back, just decided to take a break. But I also believe Jordan that the Bulls could have found a way to get Pippen back for another go, even if it meant perhaps losing a few role players.

I think Phil was already eyeying the Lakers and Shaq and Kobe and knew that having a top player like Shaq would make his life easy as opposed to a complete rebuild with no guarantee of getting a generational type NBA talent with the Bulls.

Phil was always smart in a strategic sense and he already had his exit strategy planned out.

 

[85Bears&Bulls]

I dont remember who, but somebody said it was better to go out like they did than to do what the celtics did while watching injuries and time catch up with them.

Well with the Celtics it was really the unexpected death of Len Bias and Reggie Lewis that did them in. They had a great strategy of bringing in top youth. Auerbach had a great plan in place to bring franchise player Bias in to play alongside Bird and add athleticism. Bias would have been able to help the Celtics contain MJ, would add that athleticism they needed and Bird would have eventually passed the torch to Bias. That move probably would have won the Celtics at least 3 more rings but Bias' death basically killed the franchise just as MJ or Pippen's death would have killed the Bulls.

 

[DrGonzo]

I have no problem with Horace calling him a liar. MJ accused Horace of being "the snitch" for Jordan Rules. If Horace is actually innocent of that then you can't just say I remember some things differently about being a snitch than Michael". The nature of the "Snitch" accusations can only be met with calling MJ a liar on that subject.

Yeah I guess not. I thought it had been about something else.

 

[85Bears&Bulls]

It's just his take with probably some revisions on top... I think it's possible everyone's right and everyone's wrong. Everyone has a different opinion on how things ended. There's probably bits of truths to everyone's takes, and revisions to everyone's take.

I kinda feel like Jordan saying they could have gone for 7 is one of those. Both 3rd championship runs he is quoted and shown to be feeling mentally exhausted.. in 98 he's also physically exhausted. He retired after 93 and retired after 98. He didn't go for 4, and he didn't go for 7.

6 rings was perfect. The cracks were starting to show during the 6th title run. Jordan wasn't the same athletically and Pippen had back problems. A 7th run they would have had to face a more experienced and even better Pacer team (the Bulls toughest opponent during the 6 rings) that could have overcome the mountain top much like the Bulls did to the Pistons and the Pistons did to the Celtics). The Knicks were also peaking and San Antonio with Tim Duncan and still decent David Robinson would have been a matchup problem for Chicago. (and we are assuming all this in a scenario where the cigar cutting finger incident didn't happen)

I think the fact that they had a film crew follow them around during the sixth title run sealed the fate that it was over if they won. Especially with the game 6 winning shot on Byron Russell it was doubtful that they could have had a better storybook ending than that. And not winning it all in the 7 ring title run could have tarnished their legacy

 

[Scoot26]

That was one of the worst draft classes.
Outside of Duncan, Billups and McGrady, I would consider the rest of the first round busts. (And even with Billups he was considered a busts who the Celtics gave up on and was traded about 5 times before he finally figured out how to play at an All Star caliber).

Even if Krause had gotten the one gem (McGrady), T-Mac would have only been an amazing complimentary piece to a Jordan type #1. Since T-Mac was a high school kid and not a 4 year adult from NAIA Central Arkansas, he wouldn't have been able to contribute till year 3 in 99-00 and year 4 00-02 is when he fully blossomed. So I can't see Jordan sticking around waiting 3-4 years to get NBA all star level T-Mac. Bulls also likely do not win ring 6 since T-Mac's rookie year was 97-98 and he contributed nothing that year.

Ron Mercer was a complete bust. Billed the top high school player in the nation, he never lived up to that billing at Kentucky and was a NBA journeyman type at the highest level. A dime a dozen type player.

Van Horn was good for several years, though that was his ceiling. Never an All-Star caliber player and faded by the 6th year of his career. The rest of the lottery are pretty much busts if you're expecting stars or 3rd option players out of any of them. Some had good role player careers like Austin Croshere.

 

[ijustposthere]

I think the fact that they had a film crew follow them around during the sixth title run sealed the fate that it was over if they won. Especially with the game 6 winning shot on Byron Russell it was doubtful that they could have had a better storybook ending than that. And not winning it all in the 7 ring title run could have tarnished their legacy

No it wouldn't.

 

[nbafan23]

Well with the Celtics it was really the unexpected death of Len Bias and Reggie Lewis that did them in. They had a great strategy of bringing in top youth. Auerbach had a great plan in place to bring franchise player Bias in to play alongside Bird and add athleticism. Bias would have been able to help the Celtics contain MJ, would add that athleticism they needed and Bird would have eventually passed the torch to Bias. That move probably would have won the Celtics at least 3 more rings but Bias' death basically killed the franchise just as MJ or Pippen's death would have killed the Bulls.

Celtics tries to reload but things happened and it work out for them. Bulls had a chance to reload with some of the drafts in the 90s but just drafted the wrong guys.
Bias and Lewis vs Jordan and Pippen would have been epic.